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EvMont
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Re: Schools you would NOT go to

Postby EvMont » Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:35 pm

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dsn32
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Re: Schools you would NOT go to

Postby dsn32 » Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:08 pm

Ann Arbor and Grand Rapids are actually both growing (GR quite quickly too). But, you know, facts and stuff.

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Re: Schools you would NOT go to

Postby BigZuck » Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:12 pm

BigZuck wrote:Slack called out the obvious flame in the OP's choosing thread, I eagerly anticipate his righteous anger now that the troll has taken it up a notch

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cotiger
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Re: Schools you would NOT go to

Postby cotiger » Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:26 pm

dsn32 wrote:Ann Arbor and Grand Rapids are actually both growing (GR quite quickly too). But, you know, facts and stuff.


C'mon man, Ann Arbor is part of Metro Detroit. Most people, when they talk about cities, are referring to the entire metropolitan area. Just because a suburb is growing does not mean that that suburb is an economically vibrant area.

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dsn32
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Re: Schools you would NOT go to

Postby dsn32 » Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:31 pm

cotiger wrote:
dsn32 wrote:Ann Arbor and Grand Rapids are actually both growing (GR quite quickly too). But, you know, facts and stuff.


C'mon man, Ann Arbor is part of Metro Detroit. Most people, when they talk about cities, are referring to the entire metropolitan area. Just because a suburb is growing does not mean that that suburb is an economically vibrant area.


Ugh, the economies aren't related at all. Ann Arbor is all UofM growth related and new-tech. related, although it is plenty fair to say that many A2 residents work in Detroit. Meanwhile, the city is its own complex ecosystem of debauchery, which really neither helps nor hurts Ann Arbor.

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DrStudMuffin
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Re: Schools you would NOT go to

Postby DrStudMuffin » Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:48 pm

cotiger wrote:
dsn32 wrote:Ann Arbor and Grand Rapids are actually both growing (GR quite quickly too). But, you know, facts and stuff.


C'mon man, Ann Arbor is part of Metro Detroit. Most people, when they talk about cities, are referring to the entire metropolitan area. Just because a suburb is growing does not mean that that suburb is an economically vibrant area.


I don't have a dog in this fight, but Ann Arbor is not technically part of the Detroit Metropolitan Statistical Area. It is its own metro area, and rather is a part of the Detroit-Ann Arbor-Flint Combined Statistical Area. Thus, while the entire CSA is declining, the Ann Arbor MSA is not.

You can certainly call this arbitrary, but anyone who has visited Ann Arbor and Detroit separately will agree the two feel decidedly different.

For another example of this, consider Boston and Providence. They are also in the same CSA, but have distinctively different feels and micro-economies. Just something to keep in mind.

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cotiger
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Re: Schools you would NOT go to

Postby cotiger » Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:48 pm

dsn32 wrote:
cotiger wrote:
dsn32 wrote:Ann Arbor and Grand Rapids are actually both growing (GR quite quickly too). But, you know, facts and stuff.


C'mon man, Ann Arbor is part of Metro Detroit. Most people, when they talk about cities, are referring to the entire metropolitan area. Just because a suburb is growing does not mean that that suburb is an economically vibrant area.


Ugh, the economies aren't related at all. Ann Arbor is all UofM growth related and new-tech. related, although it is plenty fair to say that many A2 residents work in Detroit. Meanwhile, the city is its own complex ecosystem of debauchery, which really neither helps nor hurts Ann Arbor.


I believe you. Though understand that because Ann Arbor is in the Rust Belt (and especially in Metro Detroit), it will get lumped in with "declining rust belt cities" among people who have never been there. This may not be fair, but neither is "I won't live in Texas because it's so conservative." Our country is too big for everyone to properly understand the nuances of everywhere.

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cotiger
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Re: Schools you would NOT go to

Postby cotiger » Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:53 pm

DrStudMuffin wrote:
cotiger wrote:
dsn32 wrote:Ann Arbor and Grand Rapids are actually both growing (GR quite quickly too). But, you know, facts and stuff.


C'mon man, Ann Arbor is part of Metro Detroit. Most people, when they talk about cities, are referring to the entire metropolitan area. Just because a suburb is growing does not mean that that suburb is an economically vibrant area.


I don't have a dog in this fight, but Ann Arbor is not technically part of the Detroit Metropolitan Statistical Area. It is its own metro area, and rather is a part of the Detroit-Ann Arbor-Flint Combined Statistical Area. Thus, while the entire CSA is declining, the Ann Arbor MSA is not.

You can certainly call this arbitrary, but anyone who has visited Ann Arbor and Detroit separately will agree the two feel decidedly different.

For another example of this, consider Boston and Providence. They are also in the same CSA, but have distinctively different feels and micro-economies. Just something to keep in mind.


I actually looked that up too. My distinguishing question, though, is: "If I'm going to visit there, where will I fly into?" That's a reason why Boston and Providence are two distinct metro areas for me, while Detroit and Ann Arbor are not.

Another reason is the relative sizes. Boston MSA is 4.6 mil vs Providence MSA 1.6 mil. 1.6 million holds its own as a metropolitan area--bigger than Milwaukee, Memphis, OKC, New Orleans, etc.

On the other hand, Detroit MSA is 4.3 mil vs Ann Arbor MSA 350,000. Big difference. 350,000 person MSA located just 45 minutes from the downtown of one with over 4 million? Eh, my mental heuristics are gonna just lump that together.
Last edited by cotiger on Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bruinfan10
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Re: Schools you would NOT go to

Postby bruinfan10 » Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:05 pm

cotiger wrote:I actually looked that up too. My distinguishing question, though, is: "If I'm going to visit there, where will I fly into?" That's a reason why Boston and Providence are two distinct metro areas for me, while Detroit and Ann Arbor are not.

DTW is halfway between AA and Detroit - you wouldn't fly into either city. The two cities have as little in common as Palo Alto and Oakland.

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Re: Schools you would NOT go to

Postby cotiger » Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:14 pm

bruinfan10 wrote:DTW is halfway between AA and Detroit - you wouldn't fly into either city. The two cities have as little in common as Palo Alto and Oakland.


That's my point! The airport serves the region.

And you're right Palo Alto and Oakland are unrelated, but that's not an apt comparison. Neither Palo Alto nor Oakland would claim to be the center of their own metropolitan area. [x]

Edit: I want to be clear that I'm not crapping on Ann Arbor or claiming that it has the same economy as Detroit. Just that it's part of the Detroit metro area, and more specifically, not absurd for someone without actual knowledge of the area to associate it with Detroit.
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DrStudMuffin
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Re: Schools you would NOT go to

Postby DrStudMuffin » Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:19 pm

cotiger wrote:
DrStudMuffin wrote:
cotiger wrote:
dsn32 wrote:Ann Arbor and Grand Rapids are actually both growing (GR quite quickly too). But, you know, facts and stuff.


C'mon man, Ann Arbor is part of Metro Detroit. Most people, when they talk about cities, are referring to the entire metropolitan area. Just because a suburb is growing does not mean that that suburb is an economically vibrant area.


I don't have a dog in this fight, but Ann Arbor is not technically part of the Detroit Metropolitan Statistical Area. It is its own metro area, and rather is a part of the Detroit-Ann Arbor-Flint Combined Statistical Area. Thus, while the entire CSA is declining, the Ann Arbor MSA is not.

You can certainly call this arbitrary, but anyone who has visited Ann Arbor and Detroit separately will agree the two feel decidedly different.

For another example of this, consider Boston and Providence. They are also in the same CSA, but have distinctively different feels and micro-economies. Just something to keep in mind.


I actually looked that up too. My distinguishing question, though, is: "If I'm going to visit there, where will I fly into?" That's a reason why Boston and Providence are two distinct metro areas for me, while Detroit and Ann Arbor are not.

Another reason is the relative sizes. Boston MSA is 4.6 mil vs Providence MSA 1.6 mil. Providence holds it's own as a metropolitan area. On the other hand, Detroit MSA is 4.3 mil vs Ann Arbor MSA 350,000. Big difference. 350,000 MSA 45 minutes from the downtown of one with over 4 million? Eh, my mental heuristics are gonna just lump that together.


I probably shouldn't have used that example, because the Providence metro area is the entire state of Rhode Island plus some of MA, so that designator doesn't capture the relative size of the city proper.

The city of Providence itself is similar in size to Ann Arbor, while Boston and Detroit are also similar (population-wise). My main point was that Providence doesn't feel like a suburb of Boston, even if some people commute between the cities. I feel like that's also true of Ann Arbor and Detroit.

Your point about airports makes sense though, and at the end of the day Ann Arbor is geographically very near to the most economically depressed large city in America.

Edit: You just largely addressed what I'm getting at here.

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altoid99
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Re: Schools you would NOT go to

Postby altoid99 » Sun Nov 17, 2013 3:53 pm

cotiger wrote:
bruinfan10 wrote:DTW is halfway between AA and Detroit - you wouldn't fly into either city. The two cities have as little in common as Palo Alto and Oakland.


That's my point! The airport serves the region.

And you're right Palo Alto and Oakland are unrelated, but that's not an apt comparison. Neither Palo Alto nor Oakland would claim to be the center of their own metropolitan area. Plano and Arlington are completely unrelated, too, but that doesn't mean that they're both not part of DFW.

Edit: I want to be clear that I'm not crapping on Ann Arbor or claiming that it has the same economy as Detroit. Just that it's part of the Detroit metro area, and more specifically, not absurd for someone without actual knowledge of the area to associate it with Detroit.


If we're going to talk about the average American: Michigan=Detroit. Not just Ann Arbor. But anyone who has any kind of knowledge, and has actually been to Ann Arbor, would know that Ann Arbor, in no way, shape, or form, resembles Detroit.

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Postby MistakenGenius » Sun Nov 17, 2013 5:24 pm

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Re: Schools you would NOT go to

Postby cotiger » Sun Nov 17, 2013 5:41 pm

altoid99 wrote:If we're going to talk about the average American: Michigan=Detroit. Not just Ann Arbor. But anyone who has any kind of knowledge, and has actually been to Ann Arbor, would know that Ann Arbor, in no way, shape, or form, resembles Detroit.


No one has said that Ann Arbor resembles Detroit. In fact,
I want to be clear that I'm not crapping on Ann Arbor or claiming that it has the same economy as Detroit.
However. AT9 wrote
I don't like declining rust belt cities and crappy weather.
The point is that these are not completely contradictory statements.

To use an example: despite the fact that Dallas or Austin is liberal, there are going to be some people would not want to live there because the wider region (Texas) is very conservative.

Likewise, despite the fact that Ann Arbor is wonderful and super-duper economically vibrant, there are going to be some people who instinctually don't want to live there because the wider region (Metro Detroit/Michigan/Rust Belt) is economically depressed.

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Re: Schools you would NOT go to

Postby altoid99 » Sun Nov 17, 2013 5:51 pm

cotiger wrote:
altoid99 wrote:If we're going to talk about the average American: Michigan=Detroit. Not just Ann Arbor. But anyone who has any kind of knowledge, and has actually been to Ann Arbor, would know that Ann Arbor, in no way, shape, or form, resembles Detroit.


No one has said that Ann Arbor resembles Detroit. In fact,
I want to be clear that I'm not crapping on Ann Arbor or claiming that it has the same economy as Detroit.
However. AT9 wrote
I don't like declining rust belt cities and crappy weather.
The point is that these are not completely contradictory statements.

To use an example: despite the fact that Dallas or Austin is liberal, there are going to be some people would not want to live there because the wider region (Texas) is very conservative.

Likewise, despite the fact that Ann Arbor is wonderful and super-duper economically vibrant, there are going to be some people who instinctually don't want to live there because the wider region (Metro Detroit/Michigan/Rust Belt) is economically depressed.


I can understand the concerns of people who may not want to live in a conservative environment. But explain to me why it's relevant for a prospective law student to consider Detroit's economy if they'll be living in Ann Arbor? Especially given the fact that they most likely won't be staying in that area over the summers and/or after graduation? Sure, there may be people who instinctually wouldn't want to live in Ann Arbor because they think it's Detroit. But those people are dumbasses who aren't worth anyones time.

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Re: Schools you would NOT go to

Postby jbagelboy » Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:30 pm

altoid99 wrote:
cotiger wrote:
altoid99 wrote:If we're going to talk about the average American: Michigan=Detroit. Not just Ann Arbor. But anyone who has any kind of knowledge, and has actually been to Ann Arbor, would know that Ann Arbor, in no way, shape, or form, resembles Detroit.


No one has said that Ann Arbor resembles Detroit. In fact,
I want to be clear that I'm not crapping on Ann Arbor or claiming that it has the same economy as Detroit.
However. AT9 wrote
I don't like declining rust belt cities and crappy weather.
The point is that these are not completely contradictory statements.

To use an example: despite the fact that Dallas or Austin is liberal, there are going to be some people would not want to live there because the wider region (Texas) is very conservative.

Likewise, despite the fact that Ann Arbor is wonderful and super-duper economically vibrant, there are going to be some people who instinctually don't want to live there because the wider region (Metro Detroit/Michigan/Rust Belt) is economically depressed.


I can understand the concerns of people who may not want to live in a conservative environment. But explain to me why it's relevant for a prospective law student to consider Detroit's economy if they'll be living in Ann Arbor? Especially given the fact that they most likely won't be staying in that area over the summers and/or after graduation? Sure, there may be people who instinctually wouldn't want to live in Ann Arbor because they think it's Detroit. But those people are dumbasses who aren't worth anyones time.


It's not relevant. New Haven's economy shoots shit too, the city is often mentioned as one of the poorest in America, and Yale is far more integral to the new haven economy (being that its the largest employer) than UM to detroit. Doesn't keep the yalies away.

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Re: Schools you would NOT go to

Postby AT9 » Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:09 pm

Wow, didn't mean to spur such a big Ann Arbor vs. Detroit/Michigan debate.

I also didn't mean to imply that there are no nice cities and areas in the Rust Belt/Great Lakes region. I'm sure Ann Arbor is sweet. However, let's assume I'm not a top law school candidate (because I'm not) and I'm looking at mostly solid regionals. This means if I go to a solid regional in a particular region (think Ohio State), odds are my job prospects will be in that region. I'm sure there are nice areas in Cleveland, Toledo, Columbus, Lansing, Detroit, etc....but by and large, it's probably the most economically depressed region of the country. Not exactly where I want to begin my career. Not to mention I have no connections to the region and the weather is pretty crappy (that's not as debatable). Finally, if I had the numbers for Michigan, I'd have the numbers for some other place I'd rather attend.

The other part of the equation is that I really haven't spent much time in the Great Lakes region, so I admit that a large part is simply ignorance. I agree with others who have mentioned that to average American Joe Blow, Michigan=Detroit=sucksville.

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cotiger
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Re: Schools you would NOT go to

Postby cotiger » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:23 am

altoid99 wrote:I can understand the concerns of people who may not want to live in a conservative environment. But explain to me why it's relevant for a prospective law student to consider Detroit's economy if they'll be living in Ann Arbor? Especially given the fact that they most likely won't be staying in that area over the summers and/or after graduation? Sure, there may be people who instinctually wouldn't want to live in Ann Arbor because they think it's Detroit. But those people are dumbasses who aren't worth anyones time.


What I was saying was that Dallas/Austin are NOT an conservative environment. However, some people would prefer not live there because the broader surroundings (Texas) are. Similarly, Ann Arbor is NOT a bleak, economically depressed area. However, some people would prefer not to live there because the broader surroundings (Metro Detroit/Michigan/Rust Belt) are.

Why might it be relevant? As AT9's assertion was not UMich specific, most of the time you'll be practicing where you go to school. If you're not happy with the area you'll be working in, you probably shouldn't be going to law school there. Specifically about UMich, assumedly someone getting in there will have other options as well. How happy you will be with your location is a relevant factor. People don't choose Stanford over Harvard purely because of job considerations.

Personally, I would be perfectly happy going to UMich. But I don't consider people who would rather go to Berkeley or Duke or Northwestern because they would rather not be in Michigan "dumbasses who aren't worth anyone's time".

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cotiger
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Re: Schools you would NOT go to

Postby cotiger » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:27 am

jbagelboy wrote:It's not relevant. New Haven's economy shoots shit too, the city is often mentioned as one of the poorest in America, and Yale is far more integral to the new haven economy (being that its the largest employer) than UM to detroit. Doesn't keep the yalies away.


:roll: Who's talking about Yale? People would flock to Yale if it was in Bismarck, ND. People choose Yale in spite of New Haven because Yale is truly without peer. Someone looking at UMich or especially lower-tier law schools do have other options, and location is definitely a relevant factor to consider.




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