Georgetown sticker

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04102014
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Re: Georgetown sticker

Postby 04102014 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:07 pm

hashashin wrote:
ohpobrecito wrote:
hashashin wrote:To reiterate: the claim is not that biglaw placement numbers literally EQUAL DCN stats, but that, considering GULC's reputational equivalence and vastly disparate PI/Gov emphasis w.r.t to those schools, GULC's placement POWER is probably roughly equivalent. I don't see this assertion as being all that controversial.


Measuring placement POWER while minimizing the importance of placement NUMBERS seems foolish.

Lol wut? Numbers, in this context, includes both biglaw and pi/gov; inferences about power are drawn from all relevant #s. Any other aphorisms you wanna impart to us?


Why you so mad bud?

hashashin
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Re: Georgetown sticker

Postby hashashin » Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:09 pm

ohpobrecito wrote:
hashashin wrote:
ohpobrecito wrote:
hashashin wrote:To reiterate: the claim is not that biglaw placement numbers literally EQUAL DCN stats, but that, considering GULC's reputational equivalence and vastly disparate PI/Gov emphasis w.r.t to those schools, GULC's placement POWER is probably roughly equivalent. I don't see this assertion as being all that controversial.


Measuring placement POWER while minimizing the importance of placement NUMBERS seems foolish.

Lol wut? Numbers, in this context, includes both biglaw and pi/gov; inferences about power are drawn from all relevant #s. Any other aphorisms you wanna impart to us?


Why you so mad bud?

Both of my parents just died...ten minutes ago...

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Sinatra
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Re: Georgetown sticker

Postby Sinatra » Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:29 pm

ohpobrecito wrote:
hashashin wrote:
ohpobrecito wrote:
hashashin wrote:To reiterate: the claim is not that biglaw placement numbers literally EQUAL DCN stats, but that, considering GULC's reputational equivalence and vastly disparate PI/Gov emphasis w.r.t to those schools, GULC's placement POWER is probably roughly equivalent. I don't see this assertion as being all that controversial.


Measuring placement POWER while minimizing the importance of placement NUMBERS seems foolish.

Lol wut? Numbers, in this context, includes both biglaw and pi/gov; inferences about power are drawn from all relevant #s. Any other aphorisms you wanna impart to us?


Why you so mad bud?

fucken A1 avatar bro. Pelirrojos unite

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hephaestus
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Re: Georgetown sticker

Postby hephaestus » Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:39 pm

ohpobrecito wrote:
hashashin wrote:To reiterate: the claim is not that biglaw placement numbers literally EQUAL DCN stats, but that, considering GULC's reputational equivalence and vastly disparate PI/Gov emphasis w.r.t to those schools, GULC's placement POWER is probably roughly equivalent. I don't see this assertion as being all that controversial.


Measuring placement POWER while minimizing the importance of placement NUMBERS seems foolish.

This. And the problem is that it is much more difficult to measure whether gov/PI outcomes are good outcomes. Big law and AIII data are just proxies for good outcomes, and the data is reliable enough that they make good measuring sticks. Of course, some good outcomes fall through the cracks with that method (eg smaller elite boutiques, federal government bureaus etc), but it's the most reliable proxy available.

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cotiger
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Re: Georgetown sticker

Postby cotiger » Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:51 pm

hashashin wrote:To reiterate: the claim is not that biglaw placement numbers literally EQUAL DCN stats, but that, considering GULC's reputational equivalence and vastly disparate PI/Gov emphasis w.r.t to those schools, GULC's placement POWER is probably roughly equivalent. I don't see this assertion as being all that controversial.


Ok. Let me walk you through it.

Obviously the biglaw/fedclerk number from GULC are below the other T14, but as you said, that doesn't tell the whole story. There are other desirable legal jobs out there. So let's start adding them in.

First, let's assume that every single Gov/PI job is as desirable for the graduate as a biglaw/fedclerk job is. This is unlikely, as there are most likely people who got stuck with a crappy government job instead of the awesome government just they wanted included in those statistics. With biglaw/fedclerk, on the other hand, they are assuredly doing well in the area they chose. However, we'll pretend that's not the case and add them all together regardless. As you have mentioned, GULC has a lot of these jobs. Northwestern has an equally valid case for Business, so it's only fair to include them too.

Next, let's assume that every person working in a SmallLaw firm (1-99 lawyers) wanted to be there. This is HIGHLY unlikely to the point of absurdity, but just for argument let's say it's true. As pointed out earlier, GULC has a lot more of these jobs than other T14.

Next, let's assume that every school-funded job is totally legit and desired. This is unlikely to be the case, as most of these jobs appeared only with the start of the crash, but we'll just go with it. DNC don't really have any school-funded positions, while GULC has a significant number.

The result of this?
Cornell: 94, 76, 85 -> avg: 85
Duke: 85, 82, 85 -> avg: 84
Northwestern: 87, 77, 76 -> avg: 80
Georgetown: 81, 62, 73 -> avg: 72

Notice that GULC is the lowest every single year.

There's one last category that we can add to GULC, though, that raises its scores: JD advantage. Again, it is unlikely (or at least unverifiable) that every single one of these jobs was a sought-after position like biglaw/fedclerk are, but for the sake of argument let's say they were.

Results:
Duke: 87, 87 -> avg: 87
Northwestern: 85, 85 -> avg: 85
Cornell: 76, 85 -> avg: 81
Georgetown: 72, 85 -> avg: 79

The BEST that can be said for GULC is that if we calculate everything using assumptions (some of which are frankly absurd) that are absolutely most favorable to GULC, they STILL come in last. Even if we ignore the one of the years because it's "unfair," the BEST that GULC can say is that it's tied. If, on the other hand, those people who are in 2-10 person law firms weren't actually gunning for SmallLaw, then GULC loses.

This is in addition to the the significantly higher percentage of unemployed or underemployed students coming out of GULC.

So EVEN IF all of those 2-10 person law firm grads are happy to be there, and therefore GULC has similar positive placement with other schools, GULC is STILL worse because their negative outcomes are so much higher.

So in order to convince me that GULC places as well as these other schools, you need to explain why ALL of these assumptions are totally valid, as well as explain away why GULC grads have such high unemployment.

And I'm not convinced by the class size reduction bit. From the C/O 2013 to the C/O2016 (i.e. change that has yet to be captured by data), GULC has reduced by 8%. DNC? 11%, 15%, and 5%, respectively.

This isn't to say that GULC is a bad school. Just that you need to have very specific goals in order to justify it, because for the majority of students, there will be much better options available.

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cotiger
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Re: Georgetown sticker

Postby cotiger » Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:42 pm

As for this hypothetical placement power thing. Correct me if in wrong, but I think what you're saying is that since firms are willing to go down to the (all numbers totally made up) 70th percentile for both Duke and GULC, their placement "power" is the same.

But the thing is that if firms want equal numbers of Duke and GULC grads, their true placement power is not going to be the same. Yes, at both schools grads in the 40-70th percentiles can get an interview/job. But if 60% of those 40-70th Duke grads who want a firm job can get one vs. only 40% of those same people at GULC due to GULC's size (notice these made-up numbers are adjusted for GULC self-selection out of biglaw), then the true "power" of Duke's placement is much better: they can get 50% more of their marginal grads who want biglaw into those jobs.

04102014
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Re: Georgetown sticker

Postby 04102014 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:48 pm

Sinatra wrote:fucken A1 avatar bro. Pelirrojos unite


:D

Blackjack45
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Re: Georgetown sticker

Postby Blackjack45 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:24 pm

Soooo.... Should I go or should I not go? Because you guys just sound like children bickering.

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stillwater
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Re: Georgetown sticker

Postby stillwater » Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:24 pm

Blackjack45 wrote:Soooo.... Should I go or should I not go? Because you guys just sound like children bickering.


not to GULC at sticker.

04102014
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Re: Georgetown sticker

Postby 04102014 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:26 pm

stillwater wrote:
Blackjack45 wrote:Soooo.... Should I go or should I not go? Because you guys just sound like children bickering.


not to GULC at sticker.

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Re: Georgetown sticker

Postby Blackjack45 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:39 pm

stillwater wrote:
Blackjack45 wrote:Soooo.... Should I go or should I not go? Because you guys just sound like children bickering.


not to GULC at sticker.


At this point I'm thinking that I may get into Cornell, Northwestern (or better). Just as a hypothetical, are you guys suggesting that I shouldn't go to those at sticker either?

I am only saying this because at the moment I am relying completely on scholarships (and loans) to pay for law school. (Assuming I get any schollys from these top schools. I didn't think I would get in but now that I have, I don't know what to expect.)

iqbalicarus
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Re: Georgetown sticker

Postby iqbalicarus » Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:42 pm

@Cotiger:

First of all, to recap, I agree with you about bottom of the barrel outcomes; they certainly have been worse at GULC than DNC.

I also agree that, in order to give a clearer and fairer picture of GULC versus DNC w.r.t decent outcomes, we should just consider removing the school-funded jobs altogether from GULC's FTLT rate for both Bar Passage required and JDA jobs. Doing so gives us the following for the class of 2012:

GULC (73.3-6.5 (for school-funded positions) + (14.4 JD Adv FTLT - 3% School funded)) = 78%.

The corresponding % for Cornell and NU is 85% each.

Obviously, there is a significant (though not game-changingly massive) difference here ( - 7%, owing to GULC's unwieldy class size) that 0Ls will have to perform their own risk assessment on. But, I believe that the numbers ABOVE are the most accurate indicators of GULC v. DNC's placement power, NOT the BigLaw + FedClerk comparison because you HAVE TO account for GULC's PI and Gov emphasis when considering its placement power.

EDIT: Sorry, this is still the GULC 1L from before (accidentally wrote this from my old TLS account).
Last edited by iqbalicarus on Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Georgetown sticker

Postby iqbalicarus » Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:49 pm

Blackjack45 wrote:
stillwater wrote:
Blackjack45 wrote:Soooo.... Should I go or should I not go? Because you guys just sound like children bickering.


not to GULC at sticker.


At this point I'm thinking that I may get into Cornell, Northwestern (or better). Just as a hypothetical, are you guys suggesting that I shouldn't go to those at sticker either?

I am only saying this because at the moment I am relying completely on scholarships (and loans) to pay for law school. (Assuming I get any schollys from these top schools. I didn't think I would get in but now that I have, I don't know what to expect.)


If you DIDN'T have patent eligibility + URM status, maybe avoiding GULC at sticker would be advisable (per current data; but, really, employment stats for the class of 2013 were pretty radically different for GULC...unfortunately, you'll have to wait till March 2014 for the formal data on that). But, even if you end up FAR BELOW median and intend to do IP law (people in the bottom 25% get IP boutiques/Biglaw from GULC), you'll be just fine from ANY T-14. You should keep in mind, however, that Bio majors fare somewhat worse than EE and CS majors do (So don't plan on getting, like, straight Cs or anything).

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ManoftheHour
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Re: Georgetown sticker

Postby ManoftheHour » Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:53 pm

If your parents or you are rich, YOLO.

If not, you're f@#$ing crazy.

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cotiger
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Re: Georgetown sticker

Postby cotiger » Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:59 pm

Blackjack45 wrote:Soooo.... Should I go or should I not go? Because you guys just sound like children bickering.


Children bickering? Sorry to discuss completely irrelevant things like "Does GULC give you better employment outcomes than other schools you might go to?" :roll:

Here was my answer to "Should I go or not go?":

If you're looking for something lucrative (ie biglaw), GULC at sticker is not going to be a great option. It might be worth it if you were super committed to Gov/PI work and could use their LRAP, but that doesn't sound like your situation.

Someone mentioned Cornell. If you can get in there, that is going to be much better for your goals than GULC.

Edit: I just looked up your numbers on LSN. You have a shot at like Cornell, Duke, Michigan, NYU, to name a few. Any of those are going to be better than GULC. With multiple acceptances, you might even get money out of some of them.

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desiballa21
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Re: Georgetown sticker

Postby desiballa21 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:11 pm

children bickering? these bros just argued for 2 pages to answer your question. gtfo.

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cotiger
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Re: Georgetown sticker

Postby cotiger » Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:15 pm

iqbalicarus wrote:If you DIDN'T have patent eligibility + URM status, maybe avoiding GULC at sticker would be advisable (per current data; but, really, employment stats for the class of 2013 were pretty radically different for GULC...unfortunately, you'll have to wait till March 2014 for the formal data on that). But, even if you end up FAR BELOW median and intend to do IP law (people in the bottom 25% get IP boutiques/Biglaw from GULC), you'll be just fine from ANY T-14. You should keep in mind, however, that Bio majors fare somewhat worse than EE and CS majors do (So don't plan on getting, like, straight Cs or anything).


Patent eligibility + URM = fine at GULC

BUT

Patent eligibility + URM = even better somewhere else

iqbalicarus wrote:GULC (73.3-6.5 (for school-funded positions) + (14.4 JD Adv FTLT - 3% School funded)) = 78%.

The corresponding % for Cornell and NU is 85% each.

Obviously, there is a significant (though not game-changingly massive) difference here ( - 7%, owing to GULC's unwieldy class size) that 0Ls will have to perform their own risk assessment on. But, I believe that the numbers ABOVE are the most accurate indicators of GULC v. DNC's placement power, NOT the BigLaw + FedClerk comparison because you HAVE TO account for GULC's PI and Gov emphasis when considering its placement power.


I never claimed that you should just look at biglaw+fedclerk without accounting for selection. I'm fine with using those numbers. But just be aware that you're counting people in firms of 2-10 people (of which GULC has way more than other T14s) as a desirable option.

We disagree, though, about whether the difference is significant. I look at those numbers and see 22% of GULC grads either not getting good jobs or not getting jobs at all, compared to 15% each at Cornell and NU. That's a 50% greater likelihood of being screwed at GULC. To me, that's a big enough difference to make me demand significantly more money to go to GULC.

iqbalicarus
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Re: Georgetown sticker

Postby iqbalicarus » Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:36 pm

cotiger wrote:
iqbalicarus wrote:If you DIDN'T have patent eligibility + URM status, maybe avoiding GULC at sticker would be advisable (per current data; but, really, employment stats for the class of 2013 were pretty radically different for GULC...unfortunately, you'll have to wait till March 2014 for the formal data on that). But, even if you end up FAR BELOW median and intend to do IP law (people in the bottom 25% get IP boutiques/Biglaw from GULC), you'll be just fine from ANY T-14. You should keep in mind, however, that Bio majors fare somewhat worse than EE and CS majors do (So don't plan on getting, like, straight Cs or anything).


Patent eligibility + URM = fine at GULC

BUT

Patent eligibility + URM = even better somewhere else

iqbalicarus wrote:GULC (73.3-6.5 (for school-funded positions) + (14.4 JD Adv FTLT - 3% School funded)) = 78%.

The corresponding % for Cornell and NU is 85% each.

Obviously, there is a significant (though not game-changingly massive) difference here ( - 7%, owing to GULC's unwieldy class size) that 0Ls will have to perform their own risk assessment on. But, I believe that the numbers ABOVE are the most accurate indicators of GULC v. DNC's placement power, NOT the BigLaw + FedClerk comparison because you HAVE TO account for GULC's PI and Gov emphasis when considering its placement power.


I never claimed that you should just look at biglaw+fedclerk without accounting for selection. I'm fine with using those numbers. But just be aware that you're counting people in firms of 2-10 people (of which GULC has way more than other T14s) as a desirable option.

We disagree, though, about whether the difference is significant. I look at those numbers and see 22% of GULC grads either not getting good jobs or not getting jobs at all, compared to 15% each at Cornell and NU. That's a 50% greater likelihood of being screwed at GULC. To me, that's a big enough difference to make me demand significantly more money to go to GULC.


Totally not following your math on that one...You mean that there's a SEVEN PERCENT higher likelihood of getting screwed right? I mean, if 1% of Cornell grads were unemployed, and 2% of NU grads were, would you say that Cornell has a 100 PERCENT LOWER LIKELIHOOD of getting screwed????

Hutz_and_Goodman
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Re: Georgetown sticker

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:40 pm

Please god no

If I had a choice between setting $50k cash on fire or Georgetown at sticker, I'd choose the first option

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stillwater
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Re: Georgetown sticker

Postby stillwater » Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:46 pm

@ cotiger - I really don't think URM + patent bar eligibility is really the magic bullet you are making it out to be.

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cotiger
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Re: Georgetown sticker

Postby cotiger » Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:59 pm

stillwater wrote:@ cotiger - I really don't think URM + patent bar eligibility is really the magic bullet you are making it out to be.


I mean, I don't actually know. I was just following the lead of others who seemed like they did. The point was, regardless of its impact, it doesn't change the benefit of other T14s relative to GULC.

iqbalicarus wrote:Totally not following your math on that one...You mean that there's a SEVEN PERCENT higher likelihood of getting screwed right? I mean, if 1% of Cornell grads were unemployed, and 2% of NU grads were, would you say that Cornell has a 100 PERCENT LOWER LIKELIHOOD of getting screwed????


Nope. There is a 7 percentage point higher likelihood of a negative outcome. In terms of percentages, though, 22 is ~50% higher than 15.

As for your question of the comparison between 1 and 2, 2 is double the value of 1 (i.e. 100% greater).

100% lower would mean 0.

If you're confused about how percentages work, feel free to PM me. (I know that sounds dickish, but I swear it's not meant to be).
Last edited by cotiger on Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

iqbalicarus
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Re: Georgetown sticker

Postby iqbalicarus » Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:03 pm

cotiger wrote:
stillwater wrote:@ cotiger - I really don't think URM + patent bar eligibility is really the magic bullet you are making it out to be.


I mean, I don't actually know. I was just following the lead of others who seemed like they did. The point was, regardless of its impact, it doesn't change the benefit of other T14s relative to GULC.

iqbalicarus wrote:Totally not following your math on that one...You mean that there's a SEVEN PERCENT higher likelihood of getting screwed right? I mean, if 1% of Cornell grads were unemployed, and 2% of NU grads were, would you say that Cornell has a 100 PERCENT LOWER LIKELIHOOD of getting screwed????


Nope. There is a 7 percentage point higher likelihood of a negative outcome. In terms of percentages, though, 22 is ~50% higher than 15.

As for your question of the comparison between 1 and 2, 2 is double the value of 1 (i.e. 100% greater).

100% lower would mean 0.


Ah; Ok. Thanks for the clarification.

iqbalicarus
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Re: Georgetown sticker

Postby iqbalicarus » Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:03 pm

stillwater wrote:@ cotiger - I really don't think URM + patent bar eligibility is really the magic bullet you are making it out to be.

Any particular reason?

hayman
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Re: Georgetown sticker

Postby hayman » Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:07 pm

Could GTown's placement power be diluted by the huge # of transfers? Perhaps those who are admitted as 1Ls do much better? More like DNC?

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Georgetown sticker

Postby rickgrimes69 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:14 pm

hashashin wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
hashashin wrote:this would suggest that it really is not that much harder to secure Biglaw from GULC than it is from the rest of DCNG.


lol at your entire post but especially this part


Awww, that's cute...the troglodyte with a 169 LSAT thinks he's elite...


Thanks for reminding me why law students are the worst




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