Can we talk about T-14 at sticker?

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charlie.black
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Re: Can we talk about T-14 at sticker?

Postby charlie.black » Sun Oct 27, 2013 12:53 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
Fussell wrote:I think, generally, it is a poor decision to accrue significant debt in law school. If you do you will likely feel/have the need to work biglaw, or work in Public Interest with the constant fear of losing your job and PILF. Why box yourself into a need to work in biglaw or the public sector? One's ability to potentially pursue alternate career paths or be entrepreneurial is seriously undermined by debt.

Obviously, opportunity cost is a consideration, as has been mentioned earlier. However, I think it would likely not be wise to attend, say, T6 at sticker over T14 with a substantial scholarship. I put my money where my mouth is and choose a school over HS for a substantial scholarship. I feel I made the right decision absolutely. I experience minimal stress about grades and OCI because, should things not go perfectly, I'll have so little debt I can do anything I'd like after graduation. That in itself has immense value.

1. Your post history indicates you hadn't been accepted to any of HYS as of mid-July. I'm also not sure how you experienced minimal stress about OCI if you just signed up for this game.

2. If you have the numbers for HYS (and with a 171/3.98, you'd qualify) there tend to be large scholarship options within the T-14. When someone asks "Is T-14 at sticker worth it?" they typically aren't talking about Harvard.

3. For many splitters simply going a little further down the rankings to pick up extra scholarship money isn't possible. And once you get outside the T-14 the job prospects usually drop off so quickly as to make law school itself a questionable choice, even if close to free.


Is Harvard worth it sticker if the end game is a firm job?

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Can we talk about T-14 at sticker?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sun Oct 27, 2013 12:56 pm

charlie.black wrote:Is Harvard worth it sticker if the end game is a firm job?

I don't think so unless that firm job absolutely can't be in NYC. But since Harvard is pretty generous with need-based aid many people who would have to pay sticker have fallback options that make the debt less burdensome. That said, there are people whose parents will disqualify them from aid but who will end up having to pay back the 275k themselves, and generally I'd recommend those people go somewhere else.

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jselson
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Re: Can we talk about T-14 at sticker?

Postby jselson » Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:05 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
charlie.black wrote:Is Harvard worth it sticker if the end game is a firm job?

That said, there are people whose parents will disqualify them from aid but who will end up having to pay back the 275k themselves, and generally I'd recommend those people go somewhere else.


I'm one of those people, I'll let you know in a few years how it turns out.

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Fussell
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Re: Can we talk about T-14 at sticker?

Postby Fussell » Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:38 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
Fussell wrote:I think, generally, it is a poor decision to accrue significant debt in law school. If you do you will likely feel/have the need to work biglaw, or work in Public Interest with the constant fear of losing your job and PILF. Why box yourself into a need to work in biglaw or the public sector? One's ability to potentially pursue alternate career paths or be entrepreneurial is seriously undermined by debt.

Obviously, opportunity cost is a consideration, as has been mentioned earlier. However, I think it would likely not be wise to attend, say, T6 at sticker over T14 with a substantial scholarship. I put my money where my mouth is and choose a school over HS for a substantial scholarship. I feel I made the right decision absolutely. I experience minimal stress about grades and OCI because, should things not go perfectly, I'll have so little debt I can do anything I'd like after graduation. That in itself has immense value.

1. Your post history indicates you hadn't been accepted to any of HYS as of mid-July. I'm also not sure how you experienced minimal stress about OCI if you just signed up for this game.

2. If you have the numbers for HYS (and with a 171/3.98, you'd qualify) there tend to be large scholarship options within the T-14. When someone asks "Is T-14 at sticker worth it?" they typically aren't talking about Harvard.

3. For many splitters simply going a little further down the rankings to pick up extra scholarship money isn't possible. And once you get outside the T-14 the job prospects usually drop off so quickly as to make law school itself a questionable choice, even if close to free.


1. Retake and waitlist admissions, doubling of original scholarship.

I think everyone probably thinks about grades and their careers (by extension OCI) during 1L, and it is comforting to know that I'll never have to be as stressed about these things due to a low debt load. But I'll also never have to worry about being fired and cut off from a huge paycheck or PILF because I have massive debt. I'm recommending this course to others who were in a similar position.

2. Well, HYS are certainly in the T14, and my post can be implicitly read to indicate that I believe none of the T-14 are worth sticker if HYS are not. Unless you're 100% sure that you want to, and can get hired as, a biglaw lawyer/public interest lawyer and also 100% sure your firm/office will not collapse and 100% sure you won't be fired from that firm/office, then I think that the uncertainty of one's law school outcome will result in stress throughout law school and the entire time one is in PILF or until all one's debt is paid off. More importantly than stress though, is the dramatic loss of opportunity cost when accruing debt. It's easy to imagine the potential opportunities one has to forego in order to remain in biglaw or government/PI.

The only hypothetical in my response was that I think it would be unwise to choose HYS at sticker over T6 with a substantial scholarship. I stand by that. Of course, if someone has the certainties (or near certainties) listed above, then it becomes increasingly appropriate for them to take on debt, but I still don't think it is a wise life-long decision due to the loss of immense opportunity costs.

3. As to splitters, I would advocate retaking the LSAT until a high-enough score has been achieved that it would enable them to attend T14 with substantial scholarship. Barring a relatively severe limitation, with enough work it is possible for an intelligent person to score well into the 170s with enough practice. Given that all of CCN had a drop in LSAT score 25%/75% this year, they will increasingly favor LSAT over GPA. I think HYS will eventually be effected by this too and more students will choose CCN with substantial scholarship because of the increasing costs of HYS.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Can we talk about T-14 at sticker?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:48 pm

Fussell wrote:3. As to splitters, I would advocate retaking the LSAT until a high-enough score has been achieved that it would enable them to attend T14 with substantial scholarship.

That's just not how it works. Sounds great in theory, but take a look at the options that present themselves for someone with a 3.1 GPA. I agree that where available people should take the money as long as they are staying within the T-14, and I certainly agree with your decision.

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Fussell
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Re: Can we talk about T-14 at sticker?

Postby Fussell » Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:54 pm

charlie.black wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
Fussell wrote:I think, generally, it is a poor decision to accrue significant debt in law school. If you do you will likely feel/have the need to work biglaw, or work in Public Interest with the constant fear of losing your job and PILF. Why box yourself into a need to work in biglaw or the public sector? One's ability to potentially pursue alternate career paths or be entrepreneurial is seriously undermined by debt.

Obviously, opportunity cost is a consideration, as has been mentioned earlier. However, I think it would likely not be wise to attend, say, T6 at sticker over T14 with a substantial scholarship. I put my money where my mouth is and choose a school over HS for a substantial scholarship. I feel I made the right decision absolutely. I experience minimal stress about grades and OCI because, should things not go perfectly, I'll have so little debt I can do anything I'd like after graduation. That in itself has immense value.

1. Your post history indicates you hadn't been accepted to any of HYS as of mid-July. I'm also not sure how you experienced minimal stress about OCI if you just signed up for this game.

2. If you have the numbers for HYS (and with a 171/3.98, you'd qualify) there tend to be large scholarship options within the T-14. When someone asks "Is T-14 at sticker worth it?" they typically aren't talking about Harvard.

3. For many splitters simply going a little further down the rankings to pick up extra scholarship money isn't possible. And once you get outside the T-14 the job prospects usually drop off so quickly as to make law school itself a questionable choice, even if close to free.


Is Harvard worth it sticker if the end game is a firm job?


HYS with financial aid is not "HYS at sticker" though, this changes the equation.

A quick search on TLS will yield a lot of people telling those interested in a firm job to take HYS at substantially higher cost over CCN and then little support for the proposition that HS (Y to a lesser extent) would lead to a more desirable firm job given a median or above GPA in the case of CC. Of course, you could take out a $100,000 insurance policy for being in the bottom 20% of your class at CC by enrolling in HYS, but at that point one might be more concerned with one's aptitude for the law.

I would urge anyone considering taking HS over CC with a substantial difference in cost who is interested in a firm job to try and find substantial data indicating that this is a financially logical decision. Search, CCN v. S, or CCN v. H for firm jobs and look for concrete data. A typical response for someone arguing for HS goes like this (modified from an actual thread): "the only way to have data to back that up would be to share internal CSO data, which is generally not allowed." So the only way to certainly know H/S are substantially better is to go there! It is obvious that employers will dip a little lower into the classes of H/S, but how much? 5%, 10%, 1%, it is probably nearly impossible to tell.

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Fussell
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Re: Can we talk about T-14 at sticker?

Postby Fussell » Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:01 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
Fussell wrote:3. As to splitters, I would advocate retaking the LSAT until a high-enough score has been achieved that it would enable them to attend T14 with substantial scholarship.

That's just not how it works. Sounds great in theory, but take a look at the options that present themselves for someone with a 3.1 GPA. I agree that where available people should take the money as long as they are staying within the T-14, and I certainly agree with your decision.


I agree that my response needs a few caveats, but a quick search on LSN for Columbia (http://columbia.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/1314), reveals that about half of the splitters who got into Columbia with no scholarship got into UVA/Mich/etc. with substantial scholarships, take this UVA boss (http://lawschoolnumbers.com/Galpino) for example.

I don't mean to sound adversarial, I just want to lead a one-man rebellion against the idea that HYS at sticker compared to CCN at a huge discount makes sense in most circumstances, especially for someone interested in the private sector.

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smaug_
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Re: Can we talk about T-14 at sticker?

Postby smaug_ » Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:05 pm

Fussell wrote:
I agree that my response needs a few caveats, but a quick search on LSN for Columbia (http://columbia.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/1314), reveals that about half of the splitters who got into Columbia with no scholarship got into UVA/Mich/etc. with substantial scholarships, take this UVA boss (http://lawschoolnumbers.com/Galpino) for example.


He was in state and gets a massive boost because of that.

I agree with your premise, but your example is poor. I agree about following the money, but I don't think as many people have the option as you think.

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Fussell
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Re: Can we talk about T-14 at sticker?

Postby Fussell » Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:19 pm

smaug wrote:
Fussell wrote:
I agree that my response needs a few caveats, but a quick search on LSN for Columbia (http://columbia.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/1314), reveals that about half of the splitters who got into Columbia with no scholarship got into UVA/Mich/etc. with substantial scholarships, take this UVA boss (http://lawschoolnumbers.com/Galpino) for example.


He was in state and gets a massive boost because of that.

I agree with your premise, but your example is poor. I agree about following the money, but I don't think as many people have the option as you think.


True, I missed that. I just choose the biggest splitter I could find with a large scholarship. Perhaps this even more dramatic profile will be a better example for posterity (http://lawschoolnumbers.com/rgsm1987).

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jk148706
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Re: Can we talk about T-14 at sticker?

Postby jk148706 » Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:24 pm

Guys my Oct. LSAT basically means if I'm going to T14, I'm going at sticker. And that scares me.

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smaug_
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Re: Can we talk about T-14 at sticker?

Postby smaug_ » Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:25 pm

jk148706 wrote:Guys my Oct. LSAT basically means if I'm going to T14, I'm going at sticker. And that scares me.


Retake.

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jk148706
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Re: Can we talk about T-14 at sticker?

Postby jk148706 » Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:27 pm

smaug wrote:
jk148706 wrote:Guys my Oct. LSAT basically means if I'm going to T14, I'm going at sticker. And that scares me.


Retake.


I am retaking in Dec, but I haven't studied in nearly a month. And who knows what happens in Dec.

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TatteredDignity
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Re: Can we talk about T-14 at sticker?

Postby TatteredDignity » Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:40 pm

Fussell wrote:Of course, you could take out a $100,000 insurance policy for being in the bottom 20% of your class at CC by enrolling in HYS, but at that point one might be more concerned with one's aptitude for the law.


You were sounding pretty reasonable until this little piece of 1L naïveté. Just wait until first semester grades come back and everyone you know starts bitching about how law school exams/grading are so random (and what else would you expect when all your classmates are within three LSAT points of each other?) And then, go work at your first legal job over the summer and realize how little law school grades have to do with "one's aptitude for the law."

Chriz
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Re: Can we talk about T-14 at sticker?

Postby Chriz » Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:43 pm

jk148706 wrote:
smaug wrote:
jk148706 wrote:Guys my Oct. LSAT basically means if I'm going to T14, I'm going at sticker. And that scares me.


Retake.


I am retaking in Dec, but I haven't studied in nearly a month. And who knows what happens in Dec.



Same issue here... I got a 168. If I can manage to sneak into the T14 it will be at sticker and I don't know if I can do much better...

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jbagelboy
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Re: Can we talk about T-14 at sticker?

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:59 pm

Chriz wrote:
jk148706 wrote:
smaug wrote:
jk148706 wrote:Guys my Oct. LSAT basically means if I'm going to T14, I'm going at sticker. And that scares me.


Retake.


I am retaking in Dec, but I haven't studied in nearly a month. And who knows what happens in Dec.



Same issue here... I got a 168. If I can manage to sneak into the T14 it will be at sticker and I don't know if I can do much better...


GPA? This isnt necessarily true. Lower T14s will be throwing some decent cash at 168s with median gpa's.

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john1990
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Re: Can we talk about T-14 at sticker?

Postby john1990 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:13 am

If retake is not an option then i would say no LS is worth sticker. HYS is not worth sticker when you consider other options unless you care about qualitative aspects. I would always say take a step down and take the scholarship. CCN+$>HYS sticker MVPBoalt+$>CCN sticker etc
Last edited by john1990 on Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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john1990
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Re: Can we talk about T-14 at sticker?

Postby john1990 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:16 am

jbagelboy wrote:
Chriz wrote:
jk148706 wrote:
smaug wrote:Guys my Oct. LSAT basically means if I'm going to T14, I'm going at sticker. And that scares me.




I am retaking in Dec, but I haven't studied in nearly a month. And who knows what happens in Dec.



Same issue here... I got a 168. If I can manage to sneak into the T14 it will be at sticker and I don't know if I can do much better...


GPA? This isnt necessarily true. Lower T14s will be throwing some decent cash at 168s with median gpa's.


30-60k is possible

Ti Malice
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Re: Can we talk about T-14 at sticker?

Postby Ti Malice » Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:42 am

Fussell wrote:
smaug wrote:
Fussell wrote:
I agree that my response needs a few caveats, but a quick search on LSN for Columbia (http://columbia.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/1314), reveals that about half of the splitters who got into Columbia with no scholarship got into UVA/Mich/etc. with substantial scholarships, take this UVA boss (http://lawschoolnumbers.com/Galpino) for example.


He was in state and gets a massive boost because of that.

I agree with your premise, but your example is poor. I agree about following the money, but I don't think as many people have the option as you think.


True, I missed that. I just choose the biggest splitter I could find with a large scholarship. Perhaps this even more dramatic profile will be a better example for posterity (http://lawschoolnumbers.com/rgsm1987).


That applicant is just another exception to the rule. Someone who doesn't get rejected outright at Chicago and Duke and who gets accepted to a splitter-unfriendly school like Texas with a sub-3.0 is clearly a bit of a special snowflake.

Chriz
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Re: Can we talk about T-14 at sticker?

Postby Chriz » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:00 am

I am retaking in Dec, but I haven't studied in nearly a month. And who knows what happens in Dec.[/quote]


Same issue here... I got a 168. If I can manage to sneak into the T14 it will be at sticker and I don't know if I can do much better...[/quote]

GPA? This isnt necessarily true. Lower T14s will be throwing some decent cash at 168s with median gpa's.[/quote]


Not even close to anyone's medians... 3.49

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john1990
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Re: Can we talk about T-14 at sticker?

Postby john1990 » Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:09 am

With that GPA you might not get into a T14 and if you did you would have to pay sticker.
UCLA/USC/Vandy

Chriz
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Re: Can we talk about T-14 at sticker?

Postby Chriz » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:27 am

john1990 wrote:With that GPA you might not get into a T14 and if you did you would have to pay sticker.
UCLA/USC/Vandy


I just plan on going to my state school on the cheap and drop out if 1L doesn't go well.

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john1990
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Re: Can we talk about T-14 at sticker?

Postby john1990 » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:43 am

Chriz wrote:
john1990 wrote:With that GPA you might not get into a T14 and if you did you would have to pay sticker.
UCLA/USC/Vandy


I just plan on going to my state school on the cheap and drop out if 1L doesn't go well.


Yea better than spending 250k to attend a school where 90% of the class has much better numbers and hoping to place in the top 40%

Chriz
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Re: Can we talk about T-14 at sticker?

Postby Chriz » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:32 am

john1990 wrote:
Chriz wrote:
john1990 wrote:With that GPA you might not get into a T14 and if you did you would have to pay sticker.
UCLA/USC/Vandy


I just plan on going to my state school on the cheap and drop out if 1L doesn't go well.


Yea better than spending 250k to attend a school where 90% of the class has much better numbers and hoping to place in the top 40%


Yeah plus I already have in-state tuition so even a little scholarship makes it a lot more affordable. If I have to drop out I will have barely any debt. Better than moving across the country to a T14 where if it doesn't go well I will already owe 60 or 70k.

Rangers5
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Re: Can we talk about T-14 at sticker?

Postby Rangers5 » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:55 am

Do you guys think schools in the lower t-14 would offer some money to a 3.47 gpa 173 LSAT? Or is it more likely I'll wind up paying full tuition?

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john1990
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Re: Can we talk about T-14 at sticker?

Postby john1990 » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:08 pm

Rangers5 wrote:Do you guys think schools in the lower t-14 would offer some money to a 3.47 gpa 173 LSAT? Or is it more likely I'll wind up paying full tuition?

youl probably get $$$




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