T14 Political Leanings Forum

[banjo]

My professors barely make it through the readings assigned for that day's class. I feel like there's very little time for "indoctrination," at least in 1L. And maybe I'm lucky, but so far people in my classes have been good about answering policy questions cautiously and within the context of the law we're learning. The hypos, though, have to stop!!

[FattyMcFatFat]

Because this is as good a place to ask as any, does it seem to anyone else that the worst in class gunners are libertarians? The three people in my section that talk the most in class are all pretty far to the right. Is it just my section, or perhaps as someone on the opposite side of their view maybe I just find their comments to be especially grating?

This may sound bad of me, but I tend to find libertarians (or at least people who allow their libertarian views to define them) to be pretty insufferable in general. I think it's because they feel intellectually superior to conservatives because they aren't guided by religion and they feel intellectually superior to liberals because they feel like they're guided by reason and practicality as opposed to bleeding hearts.

That's b/c they're right and you're wrong, bro.

For real though, the libertarians that I know are generally the least annoyingly gunnerish people in class. The type of people who think libertarians:

are all pretty far to the right

on the other hand, never seem to shut the fuck up and listen (not that sublime is necessarily one of those people). Perhaps individual experiences vary.

[sublime]

..

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Relative to the general population, national law schools are invariably left. Keep in mind that law schools referred to as "conservative" are best exemplified as those where a liberal viewpoint doesn't absolutely predominate, even though it is nonetheless the majority viewpoint. UVA, long rumored to be the "most conservative" of the T14, is probably a 60/40 split in favor of a liberal viewpoint, generally. Stanford, Berkeley and NYU have long been rumored to be the most liberal. Everywhere else is probably mostly liberal but not impossibly so. (P.S. You can all stop assuming Duke is conservative because it's in "the South." The Research Triangle is as liberal an area as, say, suburban Boston. It's not "culturally southern" by any stretch of the imagination. And Duke doesn't get a significantly higher percentage of "southern" students either.)

At CLS, the Republican Party is a joke. I'm not saying that metaphorically, it's literally the punchline to a lot of jokes shared openly. I'd guess the school is around 80-85% liberal, which is a large enough percentage to effectively marginalize other viewpoints. When a professor says "Scalia thinks...", it carries the same weight as saying "Mein Kampf had a different take on that..."

Having said that, if you're of the (generally conservative) opinion that law should reflect proper economic incentives/freedom to contract/private property rights (like I am), they're all brought up as legitimate viewpoints within the legal framework. To the extent that any conservative opinions are actually relevant to legal ideas, they're given a fair shake. So you really shouldn't worry about it. People will off-handedly say things reflecting a liberal viewpoint in class as though they're entirely without debate; just go with it. Politely smile as you would when two friends mention an inside joke that you're not a part of. There's not really a point to raising your disagreement; it would take way longer than class time to try and convince anyone of your position, and it wouldn't do much good other than to hear the sound of your own voice.

The political atmosphere won't really affect your life unless you're the guy that feels the need to make everything about politics. Pay little notice to it and you'll get on with your life.

[Void]

Fwiw, I had never met so many conservatives as I did in law school- probably because I went to a northeastern liberal arts college where there were essentially none. I agree that most law school professors tend to be more liberal, but I'm pretty sure that's true of professors in general. Plenty of smart and accomplished conservatives have managed to graduate from these places without their perspectives being infected by the scheming liberal indoctrinators. Get over yourself, OP.

[moonman157]

I will qualify that my comment about libertarians is only in regards to libertarians who I met outside of law school. It just didn't surprise me that someone would find libertarians gunnerish, because the libertarians I know tend to have this attitude that they need to impart all this wisdom on misguided democrats and republicans and somehow have this holier-than-thou mentality (which tends to fuel gunnerism). From my experiences in law school, I have not be able to discern a single political perspective on any of my classmates strictly in class. I've been shocked at the lack of gunners in my classes. I've maybe had two or three moments worthy of an eye-roll at someone, but for the most part every question is genuine (no outlandish hypos or anything), people stick to the topic, and really only talk when called on or when the professor asks for volunteers. It has been really nice. It also I think goes to support the idea that political leanings within the T14 should not be a factor in your decision.

[bouleversement]

Yale on the more conservative side

Why would you say that?

[bouleversement]

I actually think this is an interesting idea.

Thanks.

[bouleversement]

The "conservative" schools are only conservative in comparison with the other liberal schools. All law schools and their faculty, except maybe schools like Pepperdine and Regent, are liberal.

Correct. It is all relative.

[bouleversement]

I would too but we can still make a relative assessment. Here is my list just for fun. It's obvious but for the sake of clarity this is from left-leaning to less left-leaning.

1. Berkeley
2. NYU
3. Yale
4. Stanford
5. Penn
6. Columbia
7. Harvard
8. Cornell
9. Northwestern
10. Michigan
11. Georgetown
12. Chicago
13. Duke
14. Virginia

As fair a guess as any?

Good guesses, but Ithaca is hippie/yuppie central (IMO on par with Berkeley, though I have no idea if the law school is reflective of this) and one of the professors at Northwestern was the leader of the Weather Underground so I'd probably move both of them way up.

Never would have thought of Ithaca as on par with Berkeley.

[bouleversement]

Relative to the general population, national law schools are invariably left. Keep in mind that law schools referred to as "conservative" are best exemplified as those where a liberal viewpoint doesn't absolutely predominate, even though it is nonetheless the majority viewpoint. UVA, long rumored to be the "most conservative" of the T14, is probably a 60/40 split in favor of a liberal viewpoint, generally. Stanford, Berkeley and NYU have long been rumored to be the most liberal. Everywhere else is probably mostly liberal but not impossibly so. (P.S. You can all stop assuming Duke is conservative because it's in "the South." The Research Triangle is as liberal an area as, say, suburban Boston. It's not "culturally southern" by any stretch of the imagination. And Duke doesn't get a significantly higher percentage of "southern" students either.)

At CLS, the Republican Party is a joke. I'm not saying that metaphorically, it's literally the punchline to a lot of jokes shared openly. I'd guess the school is around 80-85% liberal, which is a large enough percentage to effectively marginalize other viewpoints. When a professor says "Scalia thinks...", it carries the same weight as saying "Mein Kampf had a different take on that..."

Having said that, if you're of the (generally conservative) opinion that law should reflect proper economic incentives/freedom to contract/private property rights (like I am), they're all brought up as legitimate viewpoints within the legal framework. To the extent that any conservative opinions are actually relevant to legal ideas, they're given a fair shake. So you really shouldn't worry about it. People will off-handedly say things reflecting a liberal viewpoint in class as though they're entirely without debate; just go with it. Politely smile as you would when two friends mention an inside joke that you're not a part of. There's not really a point to raising your disagreement; it would take way longer than class time to try and convince anyone of your position, and it wouldn't do much good other than to hear the sound of your own voice.

The political atmosphere won't really affect your life unless you're the guy that feels the need to make everything about politics. Pay little notice to it and you'll get on with your life.

This is an excellent post. Thank you for your contribution.

[twenty]

I think the area matters a lot more than the school does, if you're interested in a specific "feel." Berkeley is not San Francisco, and it's not your dad's 60's Berkeley. It's far from conservative, but if I were a die-hard Republican, I'd much rather be at Berkeley than Ithaca.

[rinkrat19]

I think the area matters a lot more than the school does, if you're interested in a specific "feel." Berkeley is not San Francisco, and it's not your dad's 60's Berkeley. It's far from conservative, but if I were a die-hard Republican, I'd much rather be at Berkeley than Ithaca.

Politics aside, is there ANY demographic of people who would rather be in Ithaca than the Bay Area?

[Void]

I think the area matters a lot more than the school does, if you're interested in a specific "feel." Berkeley is not San Francisco, and it's not your dad's 60's Berkeley. It's far from conservative, but if I were a die-hard Republican, I'd much rather be at Berkeley than Ithaca.

Um, have you ever been to Berkeley?

I used to live in the Bay Area. I've been to Berkeley hundreds of times. I wholeheartedly disagree with your geographical assessment.

[Merylian]

I think the area matters a lot more than the school does, if you're interested in a specific "feel." Berkeley is not San Francisco, and it's not your dad's 60's Berkeley. It's far from conservative, but if I were a die-hard Republican, I'd much rather be at Berkeley than Ithaca.

Politics aside, is there ANY demographic of people who would rather be in Ithaca than the Bay Area?

People who don't like cities but still want that hippie downtown feel.

I drove through Ithaca once and saw a group of students on a corner with signs, protesting the use of drones. I have absolutely no idea who they were trying to convince.

[bouleversement]

I think the area matters a lot more than the school does, if you're interested in a specific "feel." Berkeley is not San Francisco, and it's not your dad's 60's Berkeley. It's far from conservative, but if I were a die-hard Republican, I'd much rather be at Berkeley than Ithaca.

Um, have you ever been to Berkeley?

I used to live in the Bay Area. I've been to Berkeley hundreds of times. I wholeheartedly disagree with your geographical assessment.

Yes, having a hard time myself believing Ithaca is left of Berkeley.

[Void]

I think the area matters a lot more than the school does, if you're interested in a specific "feel." Berkeley is not San Francisco, and it's not your dad's 60's Berkeley. It's far from conservative, but if I were a die-hard Republican, I'd much rather be at Berkeley than Ithaca.

Politics aside, is there ANY demographic of people who would rather be in Ithaca than the Bay Area?

People who don't like cities but still want that hippie downtown feel.

Jesus, has anyone in this thread ever been to Berkeley?

[Lavitz]

I've never been to Berkeley, but Ithaca is pretty far left. Ralph Nader got more votes here than George W Bush in 2000.

In the Cornell 1L class, I know of 1 conservative and 2 libertarians. They're all pretty chill and seem to like it here.

The only class I have where politics might come up is ConLaw, and my prof has been completely apolitical so far. He tries to hide his own beliefs and let students weigh the relative merits of the arguments on their own. I've heard the other ConLaw profs are pretty liberal, but I don't see why that would affect anyone's decision in a major way.

[twenty]

Have lots of family in the Bay Area, been to Berkeley many times. Been to Ithaca once. However liberal you think Berkeley is, Ithaca is moreso.

Like Merylian, I saw a whole bunch of students on the side of a road up in Ithaca protesting -- I think it was a pro-gay marriage rally if I remember correctly. Having spent several days there, I wasn't entirely sure who they were trying to convince. The cows?

[Void]

Have lots of family in the Bay Area, been to Berkeley many times. Been to Ithaca once. However liberal you think Berkeley is, Ithaca is moreso.

Like Merylian, I saw a whole bunch of students on the side of a road up in Ithaca protesting -- I think it was a pro-gay marriage rally if I remember correctly. Having spent several days there, I wasn't entirely sure who they were trying to convince. The cows?

On more than one occasion I've seen dudes in Berkeley taking bong hits on the sidewalk while the police casually sauntered by. They weren't trying to convince anyone of anything, because they were in fucking Berkeley.

Ithaca is liberal, but not as left as Berkeley. Sorry.

[wiz]

Have lots of family in the Bay Area, been to Berkeley many times. Been to Ithaca once. However liberal you think Berkeley is, Ithaca is moreso.

Like Merylian, I saw a whole bunch of students on the side of a road up in Ithaca protesting -- I think it was a pro-gay marriage rally if I remember correctly. Having spent several days there, I wasn't entirely sure who they were trying to convince. The cows?

On more than one occasion I've seen dudes in Berkeley taking bong hits on the sidewalk while the police casually sauntered by. They weren't trying to convince anyone of anything, because they were in fucking Berkeley.

Ithaca is liberal, but not as left as Berkeley. Sorry.

I spent a lot of time in Ithaca and have been to Berkeley a couple times. I agree with the "it's fucking Berkeley" sentiment.

Is there any place that's left of Berkeley in the US?

[jbagelboy]

Have lots of family in the Bay Area, been to Berkeley many times. Been to Ithaca once. However liberal you think Berkeley is, Ithaca is moreso.

Like Merylian, I saw a whole bunch of students on the side of a road up in Ithaca protesting -- I think it was a pro-gay marriage rally if I remember correctly. Having spent several days there, I wasn't entirely sure who they were trying to convince. The cows?

On more than one occasion I've seen dudes in Berkeley taking bong hits on the sidewalk while the police casually sauntered by. They weren't trying to convince anyone of anything, because they were in fucking Berkeley.

Ithaca is liberal, but not as left as Berkeley. Sorry.

I spent a lot of time in Ithaca and have been to Berkeley a couple times. I agree with the "it's fucking Berkeley" sentiment.

Is there any place that's left of Berkeley in the US?

Parts of the west village and parts of Brooklyn... Brattleboro, Vermont.. Maybe some bike lanes in Portland. Definitely slim pickings

[rinkrat19]

Have lots of family in the Bay Area, been to Berkeley many times. Been to Ithaca once. However liberal you think Berkeley is, Ithaca is moreso.

Like Merylian, I saw a whole bunch of students on the side of a road up in Ithaca protesting -- I think it was a pro-gay marriage rally if I remember correctly. Having spent several days there, I wasn't entirely sure who they were trying to convince. The cows?

On more than one occasion I've seen dudes in Berkeley taking bong hits on the sidewalk while the police casually sauntered by. They weren't trying to convince anyone of anything, because they were in fucking Berkeley.

Ithaca is liberal, but not as left as Berkeley. Sorry.

I spent a lot of time in Ithaca and have been to Berkeley a couple times. I agree with the "it's fucking Berkeley" sentiment.

Is there any place that's left of Berkeley in the US?

Small pockets within a city, maybe. Neighborhoods or communes or whatever. But not a whole city.

[spleenworship]

Scalia is hilarious. I enjoy that he openly mocks and criticizes the other Justices.

Besides, sometimes he's right. I'm a shitlib but I've agreed with many Scalia opinions. Just because I don't agree with the dude on many things doesn't make him a bad Justice.

No, he's a bad Justice who is occasionally right sometimes.

But blind squirrels sometimes get nuts too.

Now, I think dude is hilarious, and he's an amazing writer. But he needs to eat a last bowl of ravioli and shuffle off this mortal coil.



As for OP: It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Seriously. The point of law school is to argue well and learn some BLL. BLL don't change, and arguing well is arguably improved by having someone of a different ideology across from you.

[jordan15]

Have lots of family in the Bay Area, been to Berkeley many times. Been to Ithaca once. However liberal you think Berkeley is, Ithaca is moreso.

Like Merylian, I saw a whole bunch of students on the side of a road up in Ithaca protesting -- I think it was a pro-gay marriage rally if I remember correctly. Having spent several days there, I wasn't entirely sure who they were trying to convince. The cows?

On more than one occasion I've seen dudes in Berkeley taking bong hits on the sidewalk while the police casually sauntered by. They weren't trying to convince anyone of anything, because they were in fucking Berkeley.

Ithaca is liberal, but not as left as Berkeley. Sorry.

That's not because Berkeley is left, it's because the Bay Area as a whole (maybe excluding Marin and Palo Alto) has the most underfunded police force I've ever seen. It's true that police don't find pot smokers worthy of their time, but neither do they find essentially anything else worthy of their time unless there's a body. Once someone broke into my apartment and I spent an entire hour on the phone, huddled in fear, waiting for the police to show up. The robbers left, and I waited an extra hour for the police. Two hours!

I also am a terrible driver and have gotten so many tickets in every other city but have never been pulled over in the Bay. There's just not enough police for them to do things like that.

FWIW I've seen a lot of pot get smoked in certain public areas of Ithaca too . I always thought that Berkeley/SF was the hippie capital of the world, but I was blown away by Ithaca. Ithaca is what Berkeley thinks it still is.