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billables247
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Postby billables247 » Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:28 pm

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Last edited by billables247 on Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dsn32
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Re: Which of the T-14 schools are worth attending at sticker?

Postby dsn32 » Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:35 pm

You're gonna get solid amounts of money from some of the T14. I was a 3.62/170 last year, check my LSN profile (linked in my TLS profile). Also, this cycle should be more generous because there are less 170s around.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Which of the T-14 schools are worth attending at sticker?

Postby jbagelboy » Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:04 pm

Not only will you get decent money from MVP and down - even if you went to NYU at sticker, for example, $175K isn't bad compared to the $300K a lot of people are assuming. Still, you should target schools like Northwestern, Penn, and UVA, who will absolutely need whatever 170 they can get, and if you hit all three and negotiate you should net something out of at least 2 of them so you can hold on to those savings.

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mr. wednesday
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Re: Which of the T-14 schools are worth attending at sticker?

Postby mr. wednesday » Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:16 pm

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?r=other&show=jobs

Sort by % of 2012 graduates who are at firms of 101+ attorneys, and then go as far down in that list as you feel comfortable given your level of risk acceptance. Penn is at the top with 66.7%, and Georgetown is (not surprisingly) lowest of the T14 at 39% (except Yale but that's not really relevant here).

Apply to all of them, see what kind of money, if any, you get, and go from there. Something to keep in mind is COL for UPenn or Duke is going to be less than for Columbia or NYU, and if all you want is generic biglaw anywhere, those would be two good targets for you.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Which of the T-14 schools are worth attending at sticker?

Postby jbagelboy » Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:42 pm

mr. wednesday wrote:http://www.lstscorereports.com/?r=other&show=jobs

Sort by % of 2012 graduates who are at firms of 101+ attorneys, and then go as far down in that list as you feel comfortable given your level of risk acceptance. Penn is at the top with 66.7%, and Georgetown is (not surprisingly) lowest of the T14 at 39% (except Yale but that's not really relevant here).



This is a poor methodology, and not at all representative of true placement power. There are positions, such as academic fellowships, federal clerkships, and a few niche positions for PI-gunners at the top 6 schools, which are more competitive than the average 101+ or NLJ250 firm. The law students who take these jobs almost always could have prevailed at OCI/EIP, or they did do a 2L SA but postponed/declined the offer, and hence they are not represented in the unilateral LST 101+ metric errantly suggested here. Many more than 47% of SLS grads could have worked at firms after graduation, and chose instead to pursue work with a judge or a competitive public interest organization (as one example).

TLS wisdom is to look at (large firm score + clerkship)%, which will be much better than sorting along large firm alone, but I can now as a law student confirm even this is an incomplete approach. Even a 2L I met on law review and several definitely top quarter didnt do EIP because they have an IHR or academic focus, which further complicates the picture.

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redsox
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Re: Which of the T-14 schools are worth attending at sticker?

Postby redsox » Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:58 pm

Not sure how anyone could really answer this question without more information about what your other options are. "Sticker" is different for everyone. Sure, tuition is the same, but everyone has a different opportunity cost.

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mr. wednesday
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Re: Which of the T-14 schools are worth attending at sticker?

Postby mr. wednesday » Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:13 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
mr. wednesday wrote:http://www.lstscorereports.com/?r=other&show=jobs

Sort by % of 2012 graduates who are at firms of 101+ attorneys, and then go as far down in that list as you feel comfortable given your level of risk acceptance. Penn is at the top with 66.7%, and Georgetown is (not surprisingly) lowest of the T14 at 39% (except Yale but that's not really relevant here).



This is a poor methodology, and not at all representative of true placement power. There are positions, such as academic fellowships, federal clerkships, and a few niche positions for PI-gunners at the top 6 schools, which are more competitive than the average 101+ or NLJ250 firm. The law students who take these jobs almost always could have prevailed at OCI/EIP, or they did do a 2L SA but postponed/declined the offer, and hence they are not represented in the unilateral LST 101+ metric errantly suggested here. Many more than 47% of SLS grads could have worked at firms after graduation, and chose instead to pursue work with a judge or a competitive public interest organization (as one example).

TLS wisdom is to look at (large firm score + clerkship)%, which will be much better than sorting along large firm alone, but I can now as a law student confirm even this is an incomplete approach. Even a 2L I met on law review and several definitely top quarter didnt do EIP because they have an IHR or academic focus, which further complicates the picture.


OP isn't getting into HYS and the difference in the number of people who are getting prestigious non-biglaw positions from non-HYS between the handful of other T14s he is considering is negligible.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Which of the T-14 schools are worth attending at sticker?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:26 pm

These days you should get some real money (like 45k+) from good schools in the T-14. And as someone who didn't take the money I'd recommend that you take the money. But stay within the T-14 of course.

billables247
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Re: Which of the T-14 schools are worth attending at sticker?

Postby billables247 » Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:39 pm

So is the general consensus that I don't try and ED at all? And that there is a good chance of getting a good chunk of change?

I was under the impression that 3.55/170 was borderline for MVP schools and a huge reach for CCN, meaning that I had little shot at scholly anywhere in that range.

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justonemoregame
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Re: Which of the T-14 schools are worth attending at sticker?

Postby justonemoregame » Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:20 pm

I would only ED for NU's 150K. I think you should apply broadly since you're splitting, but I had basically same #s, with 60K at Duke, 120K GU.

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jordan15
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Re: Which of the T-14 schools are worth attending at sticker?

Postby jordan15 » Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:30 pm

If biglaw is your end game, generally all of T14 at sticker is more worth it than other schools with a scholarship. If you want to get into specifics (aka G @ sticker vs USC @ 20k vs 60K vs full) then you're really going to start splitting hairs and at that point it's more about what is the right "fit" for you.

Daily_Double
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Re: Which of the T-14 schools are worth attending at sticker?

Postby Daily_Double » Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:51 pm

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Last edited by Daily_Double on Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: Which of the T-14 schools are worth attending at sticker?

Postby BarbellDreams » Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:20 am

Either get some a large amount of money from NDCV or pick a T30 in a region that you wanna work in forever and go there on a full-ride without stips. That debt doesn't seem real as a 0L, but even under the assumption that you get biglaw that debt will be backbreaking for the 99% of people who don't enjoy 70 hour work weeks and little social life for years and year just to break even.

PS: For reference, when I was a 0L I thought Fordham @ sticker wasn't the end of the world. That debt seems like monopoly money when you're a 0L.

dj_roomba
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Re: Which of the T-14 schools are worth attending at sticker?

Postby dj_roomba » Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:05 am

"Worth sticker" is a subjective, since it rides on factors such as your alternative career options, how much financial aid you can get from other schools, etc.

However, IF I had to decide sticker law school v. no law school at at all (let's say median college grad salary, working up to median middle class salary)

Generally:
HYS- definitely worth it
CCNP - worth
DCBVN maybe worth
MG- not worth

Throw in some money and this gets more complicated.
Also, these "tiers" are based on my research and some people might not agree. Best if you do your own research.
It's a huge decision. Everyone should do their due diligence before applying.

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northwood
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Re: Which of the T-14 schools are worth attending at sticker?

Postby northwood » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:09 am

None.

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Merylian
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Re: Which of the T-14 schools are worth attending at sticker?

Postby Merylian » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:17 am

billables247 wrote:Hi all,

I'm currently looking at a 3.55 and 170, so I doubt that I will get significant, if any, scholarships from any of the T-14.
Currently, I have about 30-40K saved up and, should I get some assistance from family, I could potentially have around 60K to help with tuition and debt. At the end of the day, I'm still looking at 150K - 175K debt after 3 years.

With that in mind, starting at which T-14 schools down do you believe that sticker is no longer worth it? With this level of debt, BigLaw is definitely the endgame here.
Thanks! This will help a lot with my ED decisions.


Don't count out getting money. Apply early and be willing to haggle/ride waitlists, and you should be able to go somewhere at a decent discount.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: Which of the T-14 schools are worth attending at sticker?

Postby BarbellDreams » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:20 pm

dj_roomba wrote:"Worth sticker" is a subjective, since it rides on factors such as your alternative career options, how much financial aid you can get from other schools, etc.

However, IF I had to decide sticker law school v. no law school at at all (let's say median college grad salary, working up to median middle class salary)

Generally:
HYS- definitely worth it
CCNP - worth
DCBVN maybe worth
MG- not worth

Throw in some money and this gets more complicated.
Also, these "tiers" are based on my research and some people might not agree. Best if you do your own research.
It's a huge decision. Everyone should do their due diligence before applying.


Interesting to see that you think V is a "maybe" but M is a "no". I agree with all the others.

Humbert Humbert
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Re: Which of the T-14 schools are worth attending at sticker?

Postby Humbert Humbert » Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:57 am

dj_roomba wrote:"Worth sticker" is a subjective, since it rides on factors such as your alternative career options, how much financial aid you can get from other schools, etc.

However, IF I had to decide sticker law school v. no law school at at all (let's say median college grad salary, working up to median middle class salary)

Generally:
HYS- definitely worth it
CCNP - worth
DCBVN maybe worth
MG- not worth

Throw in some money and this gets more complicated.
Also, these "tiers" are based on my research and some people might not agree. Best if you do your own research.
It's a huge decision. Everyone should do their due diligence before applying.


Is HYS really "definitely worth it" if your goal is NYC big law? Assume admission to Harvard also means a half scholarship to CCN (if not more, currently). In that scenario, you're paying 100k+ extra to be able to say you went to Harvard, since big law placement is basically a wash.

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haus
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Re: Which of the T-14 schools are worth attending at sticker?

Postby haus » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:14 am

It is hard to imagine that GLUC is the least expensive of any set of schools, but it seems to here (unless you happen to het lucky with state residency, and even then you save enough money to pay my cat food bill for the year).

Although worth would seem highly dependent on what you wanted to do, and what, if any, other options you might have available.

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bruinfan10
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Re: Which of the T-14 schools are worth attending at sticker?

Postby bruinfan10 » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:21 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:
dj_roomba wrote:"Worth sticker" is a subjective, since it rides on factors such as your alternative career options, how much financial aid you can get from other schools, etc.

However, IF I had to decide sticker law school v. no law school at at all (let's say median college grad salary, working up to median middle class salary)

Generally:
HYS- definitely worth it
CCNP - worth
DCBVN maybe worth
MG- not worth

Throw in some money and this gets more complicated.
Also, these "tiers" are based on my research and some people might not agree. Best if you do your own research.
It's a huge decision. Everyone should do their due diligence before applying.


Interesting to see that you think V is a "maybe" but M is a "no". I agree with all the others.

Interesting if you think spewing trash 0L "advice" is interesting, I guess.

TLS conventional wisdom is that top-3 are worth sticker, beyond that, you're on risky footing. Depending on your personal situation and genuine/informed interest in practicing law (discounted by the opportunity cost), maybe you can handle a non-HYS at sticker, but you shouldn't be happy about that option. Trying to draw fine distinctions between the lower T-14s aside from GULC just identifies you as uninformed.

BigZuck
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Re: Which of the T-14 schools are worth attending at sticker?

Postby BigZuck » Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:00 am

bruinfan10 wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:
dj_roomba wrote:"Worth sticker" is a subjective, since it rides on factors such as your alternative career options, how much financial aid you can get from other schools, etc.

However, IF I had to decide sticker law school v. no law school at at all (let's say median college grad salary, working up to median middle class salary)

Generally:
HYS- definitely worth it
CCNP - worth
DCBVN maybe worth
MG- not worth

Throw in some money and this gets more complicated.
Also, these "tiers" are based on my research and some people might not agree. Best if you do your own research.
It's a huge decision. Everyone should do their due diligence before applying.


Interesting to see that you think V is a "maybe" but M is a "no". I agree with all the others.

Interesting if you think spewing trash 0L "advice" is interesting, I guess.

TLS conventional wisdom is that top-3 are worth sticker, beyond that, you're on risky footing. Depending on your personal situation and genuine/informed interest in practicing law (discounted by the opportunity cost), maybe you can handle a non-HYS at sticker, but you shouldn't be happy about that option. Trying to draw fine distinctions between the lower T-14s aside from GULC just identifies you as uninformed.


(says removing Michigan from lower T14 is dumb)

(removes GULC from lower T14)

I'm not a 0L so therefore I am super informed and ready to call you out for being a Silly Billy. If we get to crap on GULC for relatively crappy employment outcomes we absolutely get to crap on Michigan for having relatively crappy employment outcomes.

Your move, Billy

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jbagelboy
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Re: Which of the T-14 schools are worth attending at sticker?

Postby jbagelboy » Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:10 am

BigZuck wrote:
bruinfan10 wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:
dj_roomba wrote:"Worth sticker" is a subjective, since it rides on factors such as your alternative career options, how much financial aid you can get from other schools, etc.

However, IF I had to decide sticker law school v. no law school at at all (let's say median college grad salary, working up to median middle class salary)

Generally:
HYS- definitely worth it
CCNP - worth
DCBVN maybe worth
MG- not worth

Throw in some money and this gets more complicated.
Also, these "tiers" are based on my research and some people might not agree. Best if you do your own research.
It's a huge decision. Everyone should do their due diligence before applying.


Interesting to see that you think V is a "maybe" but M is a "no". I agree with all the others.

Interesting if you think spewing trash 0L "advice" is interesting, I guess.

TLS conventional wisdom is that top-3 are worth sticker, beyond that, you're on risky footing. Depending on your personal situation and genuine/informed interest in practicing law (discounted by the opportunity cost), maybe you can handle a non-HYS at sticker, but you shouldn't be happy about that option. Trying to draw fine distinctions between the lower T-14s aside from GULC just identifies you as uninformed.


(says removing Michigan from lower T14 is dumb)

(removes GULC from lower T14)

I'm not a 0L so therefore I am super informed and ready to call you out for being a Silly Billy. If we get to crap on GULC for relatively crappy employment outcomes we absolutely get to crap on Michigan for having relatively crappy employment outcomes.

Your move, Billy


I just want to point out that as 1Ls, Zuck and I know more than you about basically anything. That is all.

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haus
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Re: Which of the T-14 schools are worth attending at sticker?

Postby haus » Sat Oct 26, 2013 8:35 am

jbagelboy wrote:I just want to point out that as 1Ls, Zuck and I know more than you about basically anything. That is all.

Sounds like you must be getting your money worth out of your tuition.

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OfThriceandTen
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Re: Which of the T-14 schools are worth attending at sticker?

Postby OfThriceandTen » Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:40 am

Troll bro seems to have it out for Michigan. NU, Duke, and Cornell all have worse LST stats generally (although they place more into biglaw, which is largely due to Michigan students self-selecting into PI), and Michigan is one of the more transparent schools in the T-14 in terms of honesty in reporting job figures.

Unless the "no" is because Michigan tends to throw most students at least a little something in terms of scholarship dollars, so if you go without you're likely a bad negotiator/not a great candidate. That I can get on board with.

Hutz_and_Goodman
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Re: Which of the T-14 schools are worth attending at sticker?

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:07 am

I don't think any of the t14 outside of HYS is definitely worth sticker. There's a secret that a lot of people don't know which is that biglaw is possible for much less $ for t14-credentialed people attending full ride at a lesser school. I know this sounds like heresy but you might want to look into to it. $150-200k will take years to pay off.




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