Options for TX Law

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Attax
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Options for TX Law

Postby Attax » Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:26 am

Hi all, I'm new to the forum and have a question that I haven't seen answered. But first, some info!

-Schools considering: GULC, GWU, Cornell, UVa, NW, Texas, UHouston, Emory, Baylor, SMU, UCLA, Fordham, WUStL
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = No idea yet to most of them, 0 tuition to Texas and Houston
-How you will be financing your COA: at a public school in TX I qualify for the Hazelwood Act which will pay all my tuition, elsewhere, scholarships and loans
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties: From Texas, Marshall area wanting to work in Dallas. I am a UT undergrad student in STEM who wants to work in IP law with ties to IP law (for whatever that's worth) at a few large TX firms.
-Your general career goals: Preferably work in Texas, also would consider NY, California, Washington (DC and State). General goal is to get into IP work right out of law school. I know I want to do IP, my mother is a paralegal for IP firms and I've shadowed, sat in on courts, and my mentor is a principal at a big TX IP firm so I've shadowed and seen what he does. I do KNOW that it interests me.
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers: GPA 3.0 in STEM, no LSAT yet, currently PT'ing around 172
-How many times you have taken the LSAT: 0 yet, taking it tomorrow

So, with that in mind, I know T14 is best, and UT is a longshot since they don't seem to be very splitter friendly. I feel as if my only realistic option to stay debt free for now is Houston (I am, however, applying ED to Texas) unless I do manage to get into Texas in which case I will definitely go there. I figure going to Texas with guaranteed tuition paid is better than hoping for scholarships elsewhere, especially as a splitter.

So hit me with it! What is your opinion? I know staying in TX is good if I want to work in this market, but would it be worth it to go to, say GULC over Houston if they gave me no money?

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Joe Quincy
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Re: Options for TX Law

Postby Joe Quincy » Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:36 am

Take the LSAT first, then come back. Without that, no one can tell you what is a good deal or the right decision, including whether you should attend at all. People have scored as much as 10 points below their PTs...and that's too huge to rely upon.

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Attax
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Re: Options for TX Law

Postby Attax » Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:40 am

Joe Quincy wrote:Take the LSAT first, then come back. Without that, no one can tell you what is a good deal or the right decision, including whether you should attend at all. People have scored as much as 10 points below their PTs...and that's too huge to rely upon.


True will do to provide a more accurate story to paint. I hope that I can attain around my PTs and not drop too much! 5 months of studying for that would suck.

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kalvano
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Re: Options for TX Law

Postby kalvano » Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:02 pm

You should dump Baylor, UCLA, Fordham, Emory, and probably WUSTL and GWU from your list. The last two, maybe some students who go there can chime in, but I don't think their Texas placement power would be worthwhile relative to cost.

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TheJanitor6203
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Re: Options for TX Law

Postby TheJanitor6203 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:38 pm

Attax wrote:-Schools considering: GULC, GWU, Cornell, UVa, NW, Texas, UHouston, Emory, Baylor, SMU, UCLA, Fordham, WUStL

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hephaestus
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Re: Options for TX Law

Postby hephaestus » Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:50 pm

TheJanitor6203 wrote:
Attax wrote:-Schools considering: GULC, GWU, Cornell, UVa, NW, Texas, UHouston, Emory, Baylor, SMU, UCLA, Fordham, WUStL

No reason to cross cornel off that list.

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wiz
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Re: Options for TX Law

Postby wiz » Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:54 pm

ImNoScar wrote:
TheJanitor6203 wrote:
Attax wrote:-Schools considering: GULC, GWU, Cornell, UVa, NW, Texas, UHouston, Emory, Baylor, SMU, UCLA, Fordham, WUStL

No reason to cross cornel off that list.


Cornell and Georgetown are at least worth the app fee.

Ti Malice
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Re: Options for TX Law

Postby Ti Malice » Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:13 pm

ImNoScar wrote:
TheJanitor6203 wrote:
Attax wrote:-Schools considering: GULC, GWU, Cornell, UVa, NW, Texas, UHouston, Emory, Baylor, SMU, UCLA, Fordham, WUStL

No reason to cross cornel off that list.


Correct. Cornell definitely belongs.

BigZuck
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Re: Options for TX Law

Postby BigZuck » Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:32 pm

Romo has said that WUSTL placement into Dallas seems to be pretty solid based on the people he knows who targeted that market. If that counts for anything.

If this were me the only schools I would consider would be T14+Texas+SMU. I guess maybe UH if the IP boost is a real thing and its free. I've just heard that UH doesn't place very well into Dallas once you consider the T14, UT, SMU and top of the class Baylor kids who get jobs there.

Agreed that all this is moot without an LSAT score

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wiz
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Re: Options for TX Law

Postby wiz » Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:58 pm

BigZuck wrote:Romo has said that WUSTL placement into Dallas seems to be pretty solid based on the people he knows who targeted that market. If that counts for anything.

If this were me the only schools I would consider would be T14+Texas+SMU. I guess maybe UH if the IP boost is a real thing and its free. I've just heard that UH doesn't place very well into Dallas once you consider the T14, UT, SMU and top of the class Baylor kids who get jobs there.

Agreed that all this is moot without an LSAT score


Why would you include Baylor top of the class but not UH? Neither are good options for Dallas, which is pretty much dominated by T14+Texas+SMU. I think the general consensus is UH for Houston and SMU for Dallas, but I'm not sure if/how a Dallas firm would distinguish between UH and Baylor.

Another option that might be worth considering is Vandy, which has a strong rep in the south (though UT is much better for OP's goals).

BigZuck
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Re: Options for TX Law

Postby BigZuck » Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:29 am

wiz wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Romo has said that WUSTL placement into Dallas seems to be pretty solid based on the people he knows who targeted that market. If that counts for anything.

If this were me the only schools I would consider would be T14+Texas+SMU. I guess maybe UH if the IP boost is a real thing and its free. I've just heard that UH doesn't place very well into Dallas once you consider the T14, UT, SMU and top of the class Baylor kids who get jobs there.

Agreed that all this is moot without an LSAT score


Why would you include Baylor top of the class but not UH? Neither are good options for Dallas, which is pretty much dominated by T14+Texas+SMU. I think the general consensus is UH for Houston and SMU for Dallas, but I'm not sure if/how a Dallas firm would distinguish between UH and Baylor.

Another option that might be worth considering is Vandy, which has a strong rep in the south (though UT is much better for OP's goals).


Top of the class Baylor is probably pretty equivalent to top of the class UH but I have always had the sense that Baylor feeds a bit more in to Dallas than to Houston. Probably pretty negligible though even if Baylor kids might have a slight edge. Kalvano can probably correct me if I'm mistaken. Either way UH kids would have a lot of competition with other schools for a piece of the Dallas pie, and most of the schools they would be competing against would have a pretty clear leg up in terms of prestige/placement ability

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kalvano
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Re: Options for TX Law

Postby kalvano » Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:40 am

I think top of the class at Baylor and UofH would be pretty equivalent. Baylor should be avoided for the awful experience. SMU is an LSAT school, so a 165+ would be in with money. I'd say UT is almost certainly out because of the GPA.

T14 would obviously be best, but plenty of good IP firms come to SMU. Small boutiques as well as bigger firms like Fish. EDTX is a big IP district, too.

Out of curiously, why not Duke? I believe it places fairly well in Dallas. Also, replace GWU / UCLA / Emory with Vanderbilt. Does Hazlewood do anything with private schools like SMU? If so, with OP being IP eligible, I would strongly consider SMU if it's free or close to it. Otherwise, target Duke / UVA / GULC / Cornell with SMU as a backup.

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wiz
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Re: Options for TX Law

Postby wiz » Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:19 am

kalvano wrote:I think top of the class at Baylor and UofH would be pretty equivalent. Baylor should be avoided for the awful experience. SMU is an LSAT school, so a 165+ would be in with money. I'd say UT is almost certainly out because of the GPA.

T14 would obviously be best, but plenty of good IP firms come to SMU. Small boutiques as well as bigger firms like Fish. EDTX is a big IP district, too.

Out of curiously, why not Duke? I believe it places fairly well in Dallas. Also, replace GWU / UCLA / Emory with Vanderbilt. Does Hazlewood do anything with private schools like SMU? If so, with OP being IP eligible, I would strongly consider SMU if it's free or close to it. Otherwise, target Duke / UVA / GULC / Cornell with SMU as a backup.


Just out of curiosity, do you have an idea of the rough grade ranges needed for Dallas big law coming from the schools you mentioned?

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kalvano
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Re: Options for TX Law

Postby kalvano » Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:36 am

SMU, top 5% - 10% will get you traditional Biglaw (Akin, Baker Botts). Probably up to top 20% - 25% will get you BigTexasLaw (is that a thing? Anyway, think Winstead, Jackson Walker, that type of firm - market or close to it). Up to top 1/3 is probably good for small firms in Dallas. From UofH, probably top 10% or so to have a realistic shot at Dallas.

For Duke / UVA / etc., they will dip a lot lower into the class. I think Duke and UVA have specific programs to match their students with Texas firms? I'm not sure, someone else will have to chime in on that, and grade ranges necessary to get a job.

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mi-chan17
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Re: Options for TX Law

Postby mi-chan17 » Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:17 am

kalvano wrote:You should dump Baylor, UCLA, Fordham, Emory, and probably WUSTL and GWU from your list. The last two, maybe some students who go there can chime in, but I don't think their Texas placement power would be worthwhile relative to cost.


Normally I'd agree that if he specifically wants Texas, GW might not be the way to go. I know a few folks who are from there and went back, and they are employed, but it certainly took hustle. Not a sure thing, by any means.

However, in this case, he said he specifically wants IP. I think GW might be worth the application at least, to see how much it will cost to attend, if IP is the primary goal and Texas is secondary, since the IPers by and large all did quite well in terms of jobs.

Can't recommend actually going, though, until we know if OP got in and how much it would cost.

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deadpanic
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Re: Options for TX Law

Postby deadpanic » Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:16 am

kalvano wrote:... I'd say UT is almost certainly out because of the GPA.

Out of curiously, why not Duke? ...


If he doesn't have the GPA for Texas, wouldn't Duke be out as well?

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wiz
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Re: Options for TX Law

Postby wiz » Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:42 am

kalvano wrote:SMU, top 5% - 10% will get you traditional Biglaw (Akin, Baker Botts). Probably up to top 20% - 25% will get you BigTexasLaw (is that a thing? Anyway, think Winstead, Jackson Walker, that type of firm - market or close to it). Up to top 1/3 is probably good for small firms in Dallas. From UofH, probably top 10% or so to have a realistic shot at Dallas.

For Duke / UVA / etc., they will dip a lot lower into the class. I think Duke and UVA have specific programs to match their students with Texas firms? I'm not sure, someone else will have to chime in on that, and grade ranges necessary to get a job.


It's weird to kinda answer my own question, but I know that Duke, UVA, Georgetown, and Northwestern participate in the on tour interview program, which is a pre-select job fair in early August prior to OCI and gives students access to Dallas, Houston, LA, SF, Chicago, and Miami (if that's what you're talking about).

Firms list cutoffs ranging from top 25% (McKool Smith) to top 50% (Jackson Walker). Of course, cutoffs listed on symplicity usually don't mean anything (I'm assuming McKool is significantly more selective than that), which is why I was curious to see how low firms actually dip.

Somewhere between top 5-10% and top 20-25% from SMU seems like decent enough odds for a ~160k job in Dallas (if low COA). So as everyone has said, if OP wants Dallas, SMU with money is a fantastic option if T14s don't work out. I think it gets a little tricky when if it's something like SMU at close to full ride versus GULC at sticker (although I would take SMU there).

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kalvano
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Re: Options for TX Law

Postby kalvano » Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:17 am

deadpanic wrote:
kalvano wrote:... I'd say UT is almost certainly out because of the GPA.

Out of curiously, why not Duke? ...


If he doesn't have the GPA for Texas, wouldn't Duke be out as well?


I know UT seems to hover right at 3.5 as a firm cutoff, or they did previously. I don't know if Duke is more into GPA or LSAT.

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wiz
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Re: Options for TX Law

Postby wiz » Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:25 am

I think both Duke and UT have GPA cutoffs in the 3.4 to 3.5 range.

ETA: Source

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kalvano
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Re: Options for TX Law

Postby kalvano » Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:53 am

OK. I didn't know, and the more southern T14's seem to do quite well in Texas.

Then I would say once OP has an LSAT, it really comes down to T14 COA versus COA at SMU.

BigZuck
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Re: Options for TX Law

Postby BigZuck » Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:42 am

UT kinda blew out the gpa floor this cycle for in state splitters. I'm around both 75ths and ended up with 23K per year off the 33k tuition. I know of at least two in state splitters who are in the 3.0-3.3 range (so below the 25th) and 170-172 range (well above the 75th) and they ended up with the same scholarship as me.

Disclaimer- we all pretty aggressively negotiated.

Duke seems to care a bit more about their gpa floor but I think they relaxed it somewhat this cycle.
Last edited by BigZuck on Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Options for TX Law

Postby jbagelboy » Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:15 am

Wrong thread - this is intended for people who have received admission and financial aid offers and are choosing between schools to put down a seat deposit, not selecting where to apply. Come back when you have options on the table.

Nonetheless, best of luck with your cycle!

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TheJanitor6203
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Re: Options for TX Law

Postby TheJanitor6203 » Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:22 pm

wiz wrote:
ImNoScar wrote:
TheJanitor6203 wrote:
Attax wrote:-Schools considering: GULC, GWU, Cornell, UVa, NW, Texas, UHouston, Emory, Baylor, SMU, UCLA, Fordham, WUStL

No reason to cross cornel off that list.


Cornell and Georgetown are at least worth the app fee.

I crossed out these two because OP sounds debt adverse and with his numbers I don't think he'd get a scholarship that could make either of these schools doable. I won't argue that they aren't worth applying to but I'd be very surprised if they offered a scholarship that made them worth attending.

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shifty_eyed
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Re: Options for TX Law

Postby shifty_eyed » Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:55 pm

I think 3.0 is UT's new gpa floor for in-state. A quick look at LSN on my phone seems to confirm this.




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