Fordham Law School?

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RoaringMice
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Re: Fordham Law School?

Postby RoaringMice » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:13 am

Chowfun wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:I'm not sure how you are only 20 years old and foreclosed from ever earning money in anything outside law ever. Head down to the registrar's office and switch your major.

Absolutely don't go to law school. It's not a path to some kind of white collar job where you wear a a suit and get paid 85K and benefits.


Hah! fat chance. I'm graduating this year. :( I feel locked in, because I've been so ingrained into law that I don't know what else to do with myself, but I know it's not what I truly want to do. I need to think about it, but I'm going to end up doing what all other idiots do, which is go to law school because they don't know what else to do. lol which isn't funny. I'm looking now trying to explore other options.


You need to stop the path you are on. Get a job once you graduate, and work for a couple of years. Use that time to explore your options. Only once you know what you actually want to do, do you go to law school or get your MBA or etc. It would be ridiculous and foolish and expensive for you to go directly to a post-grad program, when you don't know what you want, just because, at age 20, you've never thought of other options.

Stop.

Rethink.

Take a different path.

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Gunnar Stahl
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Re: Fordham Law School?

Postby Gunnar Stahl » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:18 am

Get a MAcc, bro.

Chowfun
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Re: Fordham Law School?

Postby Chowfun » Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:01 pm

Wait so why do people go to Fordham if it really isn't worth it.

timbs4339
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Re: Fordham Law School?

Postby timbs4339 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:05 pm

Chowfun wrote:Wait so why do people go to Fordham if it really isn't worth it.


Because they don't read the news
Because they have http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimism_bias
Because they think law is prestigious or believe the school's BS
Because their parents are "forcing" them
Because they put too much stock in USNWR "prestige" rankings vs LST's stats
Because they get a large scholly
Because they have a job and have been specifically told that a JD can help them

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jingosaur
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Re: Fordham Law School?

Postby jingosaur » Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:06 pm

Chowfun wrote:Wait so why do people go to Fordham if it really isn't worth it.


Now that's a complex question.

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hephaestus
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Re: Fordham Law School?

Postby hephaestus » Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:07 pm

Chowfun wrote:Wait so why do people go to Fordham if it really isn't worth it.

People don't do enough research. Or they think similarly to you: that there must be something good about it if so many people apply. It's a good school, but often not a good choice due to the cost.

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TheJanitor6203
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Re: Fordham Law School?

Postby TheJanitor6203 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:07 pm

I would say it's a combination of being naive enough to think that the outcome will be different for them and ignorance of the employment prospects.

Chowfun
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Re: Fordham Law School?

Postby Chowfun » Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:12 pm

Well damn. You guys really laid it out there!

froglee
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Re: Fordham Law School?

Postby froglee » Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:20 am

Chowfun wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:I'm not sure how you are only 20 years old and foreclosed from ever earning money in anything outside law ever. Head down to the registrar's office and switch your major.

Absolutely don't go to law school. It's not a path to some kind of white collar job where you wear a a suit and get paid 85K and benefits.


Hah! fat chance. I'm graduating this year. :( I feel locked in, because I've been so ingrained into law that I don't know what else to do with myself, but I know it's not what I truly want to do. I need to think about it, but I'm going to end up doing what all other idiots do, which is go to law school because they don't know what else to do. lol which isn't funny. I'm looking now trying to explore other options.


I always have a hard time understand this logic: I don't know what to do in my life, so I decide to throw 200k to the law school for lame job outcome. Even those waiting tables is a better decision...

Chowfun
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Re: Fordham Law School?

Postby Chowfun » Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:36 pm

Alright. I thought about all your responses regarding the question I posed yesterday. Here is my rebuttal: what about all the people who graduate from Fordham law school with really good jobs, who are happy and leading successful lives? Are you guys going to tell me that there are none, or that most FLS graduates are on suicide watch or wondering how they are going to support themselves. I just recently heard of a young woman (friend of a family member) who graduated from St. Johns law school (ranking 98*) and is working for a firm and makes 137k. Hey maybe she's an anomaly, but it still remains that her law school didn't determine her success (likelihood finding a decent to good paying job). I know people who graduated from ivy leagues, most who are doing well, and others who make less than my mother >75k, and she has no college degree.

So what I am trying to say is whether the reliance on employment statistics may not be as cut and dry as just looking at numbers. What if their are other factors related to why students didn't receive jobs that had nothing to do with the school. One person earlier in the thread said now I might botch it, but in essence law schools were very similar and that top schools barely differ, but what sets them apart are the employment statistics, but can you blame whether a student gets employed or not on the school? Shouldn't the blame be placed on the individual? Its kind of like the kid who sues a college because they don't get a job. It's stupid. Didn't that happen somewhere in California? lol When you really look at who is employed or not really come down to who the individual is? How well they did at law school, their connections, other experiences etc...

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francesfarmer
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Re: Fordham Law School?

Postby francesfarmer » Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:46 pm

Chowfun wrote:Alright. I thought about all your responses regarding the question I posed yesterday. Here is my rebuttal: what about all the people who graduate from Fordham law school with really good jobs, who are happy and leading successful lives? Are you guys going to tell me that there are none, or that most FLS graduates are on suicide watch or wondering how they are going to support themselves. I just recently heard of a young woman (friend of a family member) who graduated from St. Johns law school (ranking 98*) and is working for a firm and makes 137k. Hey maybe she's an anomaly, but it still remains that her law school didn't determine her success (likelihood finding a decent to good paying job). I know people who graduated from ivy leagues, most who are doing well, and others who make less than my mother >75k, and she has no college degree.

So what I am trying to say is whether the reliance on employment statistics may not be as cut and dry as just looking at numbers. What if their are other factors related to why students didn't receive jobs that had nothing to do with the school. One person earlier in the thread said now I might botch it, but in essence law schools were very similar and that top schools barely differ, but what sets them apart are the employment statistics, but can you blame whether a student gets employed or not on the school? Shouldn't the blame be placed on the individual? Its kind of like the kid who sues a college because they don't get a job. It's stupid. Didn't that happen somewhere in California? lol When you really look at who is employed or not really come down to who the individual is? How well they did at law school, their connections, other experiences etc...

Everyone goes into law school thinking they're going to get a job that will justify the debt, time, and effort. Many of those people are wrong.

Do not make this decision based on anecdotal evidence. Your friend of a friend is VERY lucky.

Why are you trying so hard to justify this decision to yourself? At the very least you need to retake the LSAT. Take some time off, work for a few years, figure out what you want to do, and retake if you want to go to law school. Doing anything other than that is selling yourself short.

Chowfun
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Re: Fordham Law School?

Postby Chowfun » Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:50 pm

francesfarmer wrote:
Chowfun wrote:Alright. I thought about all your responses regarding the question I posed yesterday. Here is my rebuttal: what about all the people who graduate from Fordham law school with really good jobs, who are happy and leading successful lives? Are you guys going to tell me that there are none, or that most FLS graduates are on suicide watch or wondering how they are going to support themselves. I just recently heard of a young woman (friend of a family member) who graduated from St. Johns law school (ranking 98*) and is working for a firm and makes 137k. Hey maybe she's an anomaly, but it still remains that her law school didn't determine her success (likelihood finding a decent to good paying job). I know people who graduated from ivy leagues, most who are doing well, and others who make less than my mother >75k, and she has no college degree.

So what I am trying to say is whether the reliance on employment statistics may not be as cut and dry as just looking at numbers. What if their are other factors related to why students didn't receive jobs that had nothing to do with the school. One person earlier in the thread said now I might botch it, but in essence law schools were very similar and that top schools barely differ, but what sets them apart are the employment statistics, but can you blame whether a student gets employed or not on the school? Shouldn't the blame be placed on the individual? Its kind of like the kid who sues a college because they don't get a job. It's stupid. Didn't that happen somewhere in California? lol When you really look at who is employed or not really come down to who the individual is? How well they did at law school, their connections, other experiences etc...

Everyone goes into law school thinking they're going to get a job that will justify the debt, time, and effort. Many of those people are wrong.

Do not make this decision based on anecdotal evidence. Your friend of a friend is VERY lucky.

Why are you trying so hard to justify this decision to yourself? At the very least you need to retake the LSAT. Take some time off, work for a few years, figure out what you want to do, and retake if you want to go to law school. Doing anything other than that is selling yourself short.


I don't think everyone thinks that they will get the job, but hopes that they do, or thinks they are entitled to it. I'm not trying to justify anything (taking lsat in Dec), I'm just trying to understand this do or die method. What I mean by that is if one doesn't get into a T-14 then they shouldn't go to law school being that it will be a waste of time.

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sopranorleone
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Re: Fordham Law School?

Postby sopranorleone » Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:53 pm

Chowfun wrote:Alright. I thought about all your responses regarding the question I posed yesterday. Here is my rebuttal: what about all the people who graduate from Fordham law school with really good jobs, who are happy and leading successful lives? Are you guys going to tell me that there are none, or that most FLS graduates are on suicide watch or wondering how they are going to support themselves. I just recently heard of a young woman (friend of a family member) who graduated from St. Johns law school (ranking 98*) and is working for a firm and makes 137k. Hey maybe she's an anomaly, but it still remains that her law school didn't determine her success (likelihood finding a decent to good paying job). I know people who graduated from ivy leagues, most who are doing well, and others who make less than my mother >75k, and she has no college degree.

So what I am trying to say is whether the reliance on employment statistics may not be as cut and dry as just looking at numbers. What if their are other factors related to why students didn't receive jobs that had nothing to do with the school. One person earlier in the thread said now I might botch it, but in essence law schools were very similar and that top schools barely differ, but what sets them apart are the employment statistics, but can you blame whether a student gets employed or not on the school? Shouldn't the blame be placed on the individual? Its kind of like the kid who sues a college because they don't get a job. It's stupid. Didn't that happen somewhere in California? lol When you really look at who is employed or not really come down to who the individual is? How well they did at law school, their connections, other experiences etc...


Go. Enjoy Fordham. Report back after OCI and again after graduation.

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twenty
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Re: Fordham Law School?

Postby twenty » Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:53 pm

Chowfun wrote:So what I am trying to say is whether the reliance on employment statistics may not be as cut and dry as just looking at numbers.


No, it really is that cut and dry. Coming from St. John's, 11% of the students will go onto a federal clerkship, or biglaw. For literally everyone else, law school was not a worthwhile investment.

What if their are other factors related to why students didn't receive jobs that had nothing to do with the school.


If 95% of the student drivers from Driving School of America passed their driver's license test, and 30% of the students from United School of Driving passed their driver's license test, and that's been an ongoing trend for the last 5-6 years, you'd have to really work on lying to yourself to argue that those numbers aren't related to the school.

Shouldn't the blame be placed on the individual?


Yup, for picking a school that won't help them get a job. I fully agree.

When you really look at who is employed or not really come down to who the individual is? How well they did at law school, their connections, other experiences etc...


Haha, nope!

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francesfarmer
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Re: Fordham Law School?

Postby francesfarmer » Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:06 pm

Chowfun wrote:
francesfarmer wrote:
Chowfun wrote:Alright. I thought about all your responses regarding the question I posed yesterday. Here is my rebuttal: what about all the people who graduate from Fordham law school with really good jobs, who are happy and leading successful lives? Are you guys going to tell me that there are none, or that most FLS graduates are on suicide watch or wondering how they are going to support themselves. I just recently heard of a young woman (friend of a family member) who graduated from St. Johns law school (ranking 98*) and is working for a firm and makes 137k. Hey maybe she's an anomaly, but it still remains that her law school didn't determine her success (likelihood finding a decent to good paying job). I know people who graduated from ivy leagues, most who are doing well, and others who make less than my mother >75k, and she has no college degree.

So what I am trying to say is whether the reliance on employment statistics may not be as cut and dry as just looking at numbers. What if their are other factors related to why students didn't receive jobs that had nothing to do with the school. One person earlier in the thread said now I might botch it, but in essence law schools were very similar and that top schools barely differ, but what sets them apart are the employment statistics, but can you blame whether a student gets employed or not on the school? Shouldn't the blame be placed on the individual? Its kind of like the kid who sues a college because they don't get a job. It's stupid. Didn't that happen somewhere in California? lol When you really look at who is employed or not really come down to who the individual is? How well they did at law school, their connections, other experiences etc...

Everyone goes into law school thinking they're going to get a job that will justify the debt, time, and effort. Many of those people are wrong.

Do not make this decision based on anecdotal evidence. Your friend of a friend is VERY lucky.

Why are you trying so hard to justify this decision to yourself? At the very least you need to retake the LSAT. Take some time off, work for a few years, figure out what you want to do, and retake if you want to go to law school. Doing anything other than that is selling yourself short.


I don't think everyone thinks that they will get the job, but hopes that they do, or thinks they are entitled to it. I'm not trying to justify anything (taking lsat in Dec), I'm just trying to understand this do or die method. What I mean by that is if one doesn't get into a T-14 then they shouldn't go to law school being that it will be a waste of time.

Going to a non T-14 law school is not always a waste of time and money. For 11% of Saint John's grads, Saint John's turns out to be a great investment of time and money. Are you willing to bet $200,000 on 11% odds?

I am not trying to be a prestige whore. I care about employment statistics. I'm going a T-6 school next year and its ~90% employment score makes me fucking nervous. What if I'm in that 10%? What if you're in that 40% at Fordham? Have you ever been unemployed before? It literally sucks the life out of you. Be more cautious about this decision.

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TheJanitor6203
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Re: Fordham Law School?

Postby TheJanitor6203 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:26 pm

Chowfun wrote:Alright. I thought about all your responses regarding the question I posed yesterday. Here is my rebuttal: what about all the people who graduate from Fordham law school with really good jobs, who are happy and leading successful lives? Are you guys going to tell me that there are none, or that most FLS graduates are on suicide watch or wondering how they are going to support themselves. I just recently heard of a young woman (friend of a family member) who graduated from St. Johns law school (ranking 98*) and is working for a firm and makes 137k. Hey maybe she's an anomaly, but it still remains that her law school didn't determine her success (likelihood finding a decent to good paying job). I know people who graduated from ivy leagues, most who are doing well, and others who make less than my mother >75k, and she has no college degree.

So what I am trying to say is whether the reliance on employment statistics may not be as cut and dry as just looking at numbers. What if their are other factors related to why students didn't receive jobs that had nothing to do with the school. One person earlier in the thread said now I might botch it, but in essence law schools were very similar and that top schools barely differ, but what sets them apart are the employment statistics, but can you blame whether a student gets employed or not on the school? Shouldn't the blame be placed on the individual? Its kind of like the kid who sues a college because they don't get a job. It's stupid. Didn't that happen somewhere in California? lol When you really look at who is employed or not really come down to who the individual is? How well they did at law school, their connections, other experiences etc...

I'm sure there are many graduates of Fordham that are happy with the outcome. I don't think anyone here is saying that you cannot be successful as a graduate from this school. People are only cautioning you that it isn't guaranteed. If you go to a T14 school and a T6 school especially, your success is virtually all but guaranteed. Anything outside of one of those schools is where you begin to have less guarantees of success.
I know a person that went to Phoenix Law and they are a practicing lawyer. Would I go to Phoenix Law? Not a chance in hell.
I know two people that went to Oklahoma City Law School and they are practicing lawyers. Would I go there? Not a chance in hell.

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PepperJack
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Re: Fordham Law School?

Postby PepperJack » Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:30 pm

OP, if these top schools include St. John's, Brooklyn,, Hofstra and NY Law don't just see where you'll get in. You don't realize this at 20, but if you go these middling schools at full price and are like 90% of the class you will be a slave for the rest of your life. Forget having a family (unless you want to feed your kids white rice and ketchup for dinner each night).

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: Fordham Law School?

Postby TheSpanishMain » Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:27 pm

twentypercentmore wrote:
Chowfun wrote:So what I am trying to say is whether the reliance on employment statistics may not be as cut and dry as just looking at numbers.


No, it really is that cut and dry. Coming from St. John's, 11% of the students will go onto a federal clerkship, or biglaw. For literally everyone else, law school was not a worthwhile investment.



I couldn't agree more with your overall point, but this might be a LITTLE too black and white. I'm sure among the 89% who didn't get biglaw/clerkships, there are some who landed middling jobs but had minimal/no debt. For them, St. Johns might have been a not-horrible investment.

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john1990
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Re: Fordham Law School?

Postby john1990 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:02 pm

Law School can be a worthwhile investment even if you don't come out of school making $160,000. Most students come out of undergrad with $50,000 job offers. You can still easily make twice the income out of law school and have a greater long term earning potential.

Actually the 250,000 debt (which assumes no scholarship) will amount to nearly 375,000. This is paid off at about 25,000 a year for 15 years. Fordham should give you a good shot at increasing your earning potential by 25,000 even if you miss biglaw. After those 15 years you will be doing far better. This ignores the differences in potential for growth in compensation

Anyway, i have no problem with Fordham. You have a 33% chance of making big law/A3 and that isn't bad. With a partial shollarship these numbers don't look as crooked

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kwais
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Re: Fordham Law School?

Postby kwais » Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:17 pm

john1990 wrote:Law School can be a worthwhile investment even if you don't come out of school making $160,000. Most students come out of undergrad with $50,000 job offers. You can still easily make twice the income out of law school and have a greater long term earning potential.

Actually the 250,000 debt (which assumes no scholarship) will amount to nearly 375,000. This is paid off at about 25,000 a year for 15 years. Fordham should give you a good shot at increasing your earning potential by 25,000 even if you miss biglaw. After those 15 years you will be doing far better. This ignores the differences in potential for growth in compensation

Anyway, i have no problem with Fordham. You have a 33% chance of making big law/A3 and that isn't bad. With a partial shollarship these numbers don't look as crooked


OP, this guy is just joshin' you. Especially with the MOST students get a 50k job out of UG and you can EASILY get 100K out of Fordham. Joshin' you good.

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john1990
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Re: Fordham Law School?

Postby john1990 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:21 pm

kwais wrote:
john1990 wrote:Law School can be a worthwhile investment even if you don't come out of school making $160,000. Most students come out of undergrad with $50,000 job offers. You can still easily make twice the income out of law school and have a greater long term earning potential.

Actually the 250,000 debt (which assumes no scholarship) will amount to nearly 375,000. This is paid off at about 25,000 a year for 15 years. Fordham should give you a good shot at increasing your earning potential by 25,000 even if you miss biglaw. After those 15 years you will be doing far better. This ignores the differences in potential for growth in compensation

Anyway, i have no problem with Fordham. You have a 33% chance of making big law/A3 and that isn't bad. With a partial shollarship these numbers don't look as crooked


OP, this guy is just joshin' you. Especially with the MOST students get a 50k job out of UG and you can EASILY get 100K out of Fordham. Joshin' you good.


What figures would you estimate for jobs coming out of UG vs LS.

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twenty
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Re: Fordham Law School?

Postby twenty » Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:22 pm

TheSpanishMain wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:
Chowfun wrote:So what I am trying to say is whether the reliance on employment statistics may not be as cut and dry as just looking at numbers.


No, it really is that cut and dry. Coming from St. John's, 11% of the students will go onto a federal clerkship, or biglaw. For literally everyone else, law school was not a worthwhile investment.



I couldn't agree more with your overall point, but this might be a LITTLE too black and white. I'm sure among the 89% who didn't get biglaw/clerkships, there are some who landed middling jobs but had minimal/no debt. For them, St. Johns might have been a not-horrible investment.


I'm painting with a pretty broad brush, I'll grant you. According to the ABA's profile, 18% of the students were getting full tuition. Let's round that up to 25%, because surely a lot of students getting "between half and full" are only a few grand away from a full ride.

Let's also now assume that, of the 11% of grads that got good jobs, not one of them was a full scholarship recipient, and of the 25% that received scholarships, they all got jobs making at least as much money to make up for the three years of Cost of Living expenses + lost income.

So at the very most, 36% of the grads at least broke even, and let's also absorb people whose employers/government/military paid for LS in that number.

Those are still brutally terrible odds.

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twenty
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Re: Fordham Law School?

Postby twenty » Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:23 pm

What figures would you estimate for jobs coming out of UG vs LS.


50k from law school, $13/hour working 38 hours a week for UG.

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john1990
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Re: Fordham Law School?

Postby john1990 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:28 pm

twentypercentmore wrote:
What figures would you estimate for jobs coming out of UG vs LS.


50k from law school, $13/hour working 38 hours a week for UG.


:lol: Still sounds like a good investment

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kwais
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Re: Fordham Law School?

Postby kwais » Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:36 pm

john1990 wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:
What figures would you estimate for jobs coming out of UG vs LS.


50k from law school, $13/hour working 38 hours a week for UG.


:lol: Still sounds like a good investment


Let us know how that goes for you.




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