Need help explaining

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jk148706
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Need help explaining

Postby jk148706 » Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:47 am

Guys, I really need some advice.

First, some background. Last year, I took the LSAT in December. I was enrolled in a Testmasters course, but basically did little to no studying and did not take the test seriously at all. I scored a 160. I applied to law schools -- mostly TT and TTT, with a couple t50 thrown in. Luckily -- oh, so luckily -- I discovered this forum in January and began reading. I was lead to the Campos page and realized I was taking a HUGE risk with my future if I went TT on a small scholarship.

So, I postponed law school, have been studying rigorously for the LSAT since April. Currently, I'm PTing in the 170s (even hit 180 once :D ), and expect to score 167+ in two weeks.

Here's the thing: even if I get a really good score on the LSAT, all my friends, family etc just expect me to go to the local TT on a scholarship. I have tried explaining that a t14 would be a better option, but people do not get it. They usually cite some anecdotal case of someone's cousin getting a good job 30 years ago when he graduated from a TTT.

I have tried everything: employment data, rankings, etc, but no one wants to hear it. This is especially true because I told them last cycle I was delaying law school because I did not want to take on so much debt. Assuming I receive a substantially scholarship from my local TT, they argue I should just enroll there. I try to explain to them that a little more debt at a top school is not a bad thing (though I, obviously, prefer no debt at all ha).

I'm just wondering if anyone has experienced a similar situation. IF so, how did you approach it? Is there a way to get through to ppl how bad the legal market is and how important my school choice is? I'd be interested to hear how other posters have dealt with similar situations.

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jingosaur
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Re: Need help explaining

Postby jingosaur » Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:25 am

First off, what are your career goals? And what's the local TT if you don't mind sharing? There's a small chance that going to a local TT on a full scholly may be the right path for you.

Second, you don't owe anything to your friends and family in terms of explaining your choice of law school unless they're paying your tuition without any expectation for that money to be returned. You're going to law school, not them.

Third, I'm not sure if you know about lawschooltransparency.com, but you can show them that. Say "I want to be X, and out of the Class of 2012 at [TT school] only [low number] ended up in X and [high percentage] of the class was still unemployed after 9 months."

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smaug_
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Re: Need help explaining

Postby smaug_ » Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:26 am

jingosaur wrote:Third, I'm not sure if you know about lawschooltransparency.com, but you can show them that. Say "I want to be X, and out of the Class of 2012 at [TT school] only [low number] ended up in X and [high percentage] of the class was still unemployed after 9 months."

timbs4339
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Re: Need help explaining

Postby timbs4339 » Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:05 am

I had a similar situation, although not like the kind of pressure you face. I ended up having the numbers to pick between T6s, and my parents were suggesting that I just go to one of the local schools with the full scholly. They're middle class people who don't socialize with or really know any lawyers (except from TV).

In the end, I realized that it was going to be impossible to change their minds, so I stopped bothering to try. My parents and relatives came from a world where law school was cheap, nobody had much debt, where all lawyers are rich, respected professionals, and where getting into any respected four-year college was a huge achievement. They literally cannot accept premises that students who are going through the job market today know intuitively.

Part of becoming an adult is taking advice from your parents, nodding your head, and then doing your own thing. They'll get over it.

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jk148706
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Re: Need help explaining

Postby jk148706 » Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:21 am

Career goals = big law

I'm familiar with lst and love it. I'm hoping it can convice some family that a TTT is not a good option

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twenty
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Re: Need help explaining

Postby twenty » Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:09 pm

My parents didn't get it either until I showed them the big red "unemployed" number on LST for Chapman.

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kalvano
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Re: Need help explaining

Postby kalvano » Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:09 pm

Why does it matter what they think? The important thing is that you know it.

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jk148706
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Re: Need help explaining

Postby jk148706 » Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:15 pm

kalvano wrote:Why does it matter what they think? The important thing is that you know it.


Yeah.. and I know you're right. It just would be nicer and easier if I could get them to get it.

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shaynislegend
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Re: Need help explaining

Postby shaynislegend » Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:28 pm

If your having trouble explaining a logical decisions to illogical people just make up a illogical reason to make a logical decision. For instance, " I just have always wanted to go to (Duke, Harvard, Yale, etc.) or (I have always wanted to live in (NY, Cal, Illm etc.). Don't be afraid to fight them on their own turf. If you having trouble making up an illogical reason for going to a top-14 school, you can find a ton of examples of people trying to do this with TTTT schools in this very thread.

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mlansky
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Re: Need help explaining

Postby mlansky » Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:36 pm

jk148706 wrote:
kalvano wrote:Why does it matter what they think? The important thing is that you know it.


Yeah.. and I know you're right. It just would be nicer and easier if I could get them to get it.


Similar boat here. Ultimately, the situation is best explained when you've made peace with the fact that you're the only person who needs to understand it. Then, if you're explaining it, you can be kind and gentle with the truth, maybe even funny (sometimes I just explain myself by saying "well, I'd kinda like a job when I graduate" and, if that piques their interest, I can fill them in. If they think they know best but don't want to talk facts, then it's just an agree-to-disagree thing. Gotta own your own decisions. Don't be the guy in the allegory of the cave who's trying to explain the current job market to people who don't want to hear it. Just smile and say, "yeah, it's a big decision. I'm definitely gonna weigh my options" and leave it at that.

Myself
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Postby Myself » Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:14 pm

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Last edited by Myself on Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

treeey86
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Re: Need help explaining

Postby treeey86 » Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:16 pm

tell them you are a god damn adult who has ultimate say over your own career path and the amount of debt you are willing to get there. They are not the ones who will have law school debt + limited job prospects because you went to a TT or TTT.

You are not 18 anymore about to go to college and be on your own for the first time. This is a serious decision to enter the legal profession, and how and when you do it is yours alone.

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I Used to Be a Spy
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Re: Need help explaining

Postby I Used to Be a Spy » Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:26 pm

FWIW I'm in my third year of not going to law school and it couldn't have been a better decision. Like you, I didn't put the work in my first time taking the LSAT because I had no idea how important it was, nor how learn-able it is. I was set to pay way to much money to go to a school that wasn't ranked highly enough -- but then in January I discovered TLS, studied harder, smarter, better, and then retook in June. I scored in the 99th percentile and got a full ride to a T10.

My family was absolutely no help during all this. They were convinced I was just putting law school off, that retaking would somehow get my current offer rescinded, and that I shouldn't worry about it because I was exceptional and would do well. No matter what I said they couldn't be convinced otherwise.

Until I got a 160K scholarship... then they admitted it was a good idea.

The point of this is. TLS's knowledge of law school admissions > Your parents. They may simply not get it, which can be shitty, but just ignore them and do what's right for you. Retake it till you make it, and good luck.

timbs4339
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Re: Need help explaining

Postby timbs4339 » Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:46 pm

I Used to Be a Spy wrote:Retake it till you make it


I like this line. World would be a better place if every applicant knew this intuitively.

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midwest17
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Re: Need help explaining

Postby midwest17 » Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:38 pm

ajax adonis wrote:Tell them to randomly read 15 blog posts on Paul Campos's law school scam blog.


Why do people here like Campos so much? Even on the things I agree with him about, I wouldn't recommend him for persuasive purposes.

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: Need help explaining

Postby TheSpanishMain » Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:43 am

midwest17 wrote:
ajax adonis wrote:Tell them to randomly read 15 blog posts on Paul Campos's law school scam blog.


Why do people here like Campos so much? Even on the things I agree with him about, I wouldn't recommend him for persuasive purposes.


I'm guessing Campos is particularly persuasive to parents because he's an actual law professor, as opposed to some anonymous poster on TLS that they'll dismiss as just some burnout eating Cheetos in his mom's basement, or LST, which they'll probably think is just some bitter ex-law student torturing statistics to make schools look bad.

Also, to OP: try showing them yearly tuition on the school's webpage. A lot of boomers still think that a year of law school costs about 8k. If you show them that it's usually in the 45-50k range, maybe they'll understand why scholarships are so important.

Benjamin1987
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Re: Need help explaining

Postby Benjamin1987 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:03 am

I dealt with the exact same situation entering law school. Only I was Arguing against a T2 w/ a full ride at my parents alma mater. Guess what I did? What was best for me. In the end, it was a no brainer. Now, I can't even tell how much I'm going to make next summer or it would make them feel bad about themselves.

Don't listen to anyone outside of this industry. In fact, don't listen to anyone outside of this forum. TLS may take a better safe than sorry approach, but I'm grateful for it. You can always find support here.

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redsox
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Re: Need help explaining

Postby redsox » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:45 am

Grow up.

FluffMonster
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Re: Need help explaining

Postby FluffMonster » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:12 pm

"You can always find support here."

"Grow up."

Lol

Myself
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Postby Myself » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:54 pm

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Last edited by Myself on Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:38 am, edited 2 times in total.

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hephaestus
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Re: Need help explaining

Postby hephaestus » Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:01 pm

Jules239 wrote:"You can always find support here."

"Grow up."

Lol

As Benjamin1987 said, TLS can be harsh. But stand up to your parents/friends. Really, who cares what they think. The point is for you to go to a school where you can actually get a job.

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jk148706
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Re: Need help explaining

Postby jk148706 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:15 am

ImNoScar wrote:
Jules239 wrote:"You can always find support here."

"Grow up."

Lol

As Benjamin1987 said, TLS can be harsh. But stand up to your parents/friends. Really, who cares what they think. The point is for you to go to a school where you can actually get a job.


Everyone is on the same page here. I get it. Just saying it would be nice if I could get through to them.

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francesfarmer
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Re: Need help explaining

Postby francesfarmer » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:48 am

jk148706 wrote:
ImNoScar wrote:
Jules239 wrote:"You can always find support here."

"Grow up."

Lol

As Benjamin1987 said, TLS can be harsh. But stand up to your parents/friends. Really, who cares what they think. The point is for you to go to a school where you can actually get a job.


Everyone is on the same page here. I get it. Just saying it would be nice if I could get through to them.

Are they stupid? Serious question. My family is made up mostly of mouth breathers and at some point you just gotta realize you're never going to get through to them.

timbs4339
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Re: Need help explaining

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:50 am

Speaking from experience, it will take them all of one month to get over it. And by a month and a half they'll be telling everyone they meet about their awesome kid who is going to make big bucks in the prestigious and lucrative legal profession that totally isn't rapidly declining.

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jk148706
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Re: Need help explaining

Postby jk148706 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:00 am

francesfarmer wrote:
jk148706 wrote:
ImNoScar wrote:
Jules239 wrote:"You can always find support here."

"Grow up."

Lol

As Benjamin1987 said, TLS can be harsh. But stand up to your parents/friends. Really, who cares what they think. The point is for you to go to a school where you can actually get a job.


Everyone is on the same page here. I get it. Just saying it would be nice if I could get through to them.

Are they stupid? Serious question. My family is made up mostly of mouth breathers and at some point you just gotta realize you're never going to get through to them.


It seems to me that anyone who has not done research about law school is "stupid" about it. People still have an idea of how it used to be.... TTT school = great job




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