top 14 law schools or field specialized law schools Forum

[ericsmith249]

I stand by Vermont's Environmental Law Program.

I really thought you were joking.

http://www.vermontlaw.edu/News_and_Even ... e_Year.htm

5th year in a row. The environmental law firms hire in droves.

[romothesavior]

I stand by Vermont's Environmental Law Program.

I really thought you were joking.

http://www.vermontlaw.edu/News_and_Even ... e_Year.htm

5th year in a row. The environmental law firms hire in droves.

That's just flat out false. *ZERO* firms of 100+ attorneys hired a Vermont Law grad last year, and they regularly place well under 50% of their class into full-time lawyer jobs. Given that the overwhelming bulk of environmental law work is done in big firms (and 100 attorneys is a really low cut-off point for what is considered a "big firm"), I'd say your position holds no water at all. jbagel hit it on the head: being ranked #1 in a specialty ranking doesn't reflect hiring. Their environmental law clinics and classes may be outstanding, but they have putrid employment scores.

[hephaestus]

Specialty rankings do NOT matter.

This - they are more USNWR's way of exploring and recognizing different programs and clinics law schools are trying to stand out, or maybe a professor at the LS who wrote an impressive article read by 120 ppl that year. Unfortunately, they do not reflect actual hiring in that field. Look at the metrics. I wish we could measure hiring specific to something like IP, environmental or international law, but I would go ahead and guess that the hiring lists would resemble the T14 in some variant anyway.

Yeah. I think they mainly exist to give every school something to brag about instead of just complaining about the USNWR rankings. For example my undergrad's TTT law school touts their USNWR legal writing ranking instead of bitching about how the rankings are inaccurate.

[A. Nony Mouse]

To be honest, I do think Vermont pulls above its weight in government/PI environmental hiring. It still doesn't at ALL make specialty rankings a thing, or worth choosing your school based on, and it doesn't make going to Vermont for environmental law a good bet, in part because everyone goes to Vermont wanting to do environmental law, and it's still a tiny percentage of graduates who are going to have good outcomes. But I think it's fair to say that of the people who come out of Vermont getting jobs, a lot do end up doing environmental law in the public sector - it's just still a small number/percentage overall, and small enough not to bank on.

(I don't know anything about the environmental law firm hiring claim.)

[Void]

To be honest, I do think Vermont pulls above its weight in government/PI environmental hiring. It still doesn't at ALL make specialty rankings a thing, or worth choosing your school based on, and it doesn't make going to Vermont for environmental law a good bet, in part because everyone goes to Vermont wanting to do environmental law, and it's still a tiny percentage of graduates who are going to have good outcomes. But I think it's fair to say that of the people who come out of Vermont getting jobs, a lot do end up doing environmental law in the public sector - it's just still a small number/percentage overall, and small enough not to bank on.

(I don't know anything about the environmental law firm hiring claim.)

I suspect that the school "pulls above its weight" because of region. It's the only law school in the entire state, and one of a tiny handful of schools in the northern New England region. So if you want a state govt job in Vermont or New Hampshire or maybe Maine (to the extent that these jobs exist) it's probably an ok choice. But if you think you'll be battling BP's biglaw attorneys or whatever, No.

[A. Nony Mouse]

To be honest, I do think Vermont pulls above its weight in government/PI environmental hiring. It still doesn't at ALL make specialty rankings a thing, or worth choosing your school based on, and it doesn't make going to Vermont for environmental law a good bet, in part because everyone goes to Vermont wanting to do environmental law, and it's still a tiny percentage of graduates who are going to have good outcomes. But I think it's fair to say that of the people who come out of Vermont getting jobs, a lot do end up doing environmental law in the public sector - it's just still a small number/percentage overall, and small enough not to bank on.

(I don't know anything about the environmental law firm hiring claim.)

I suspect that the school "pulls above its weight" because of region. It's the only law school in the entire state, and one of a tiny handful of schools in the northern New England region. So if you want a state govt job in Vermont or New Hampshire or maybe Maine (to the extent that these jobs exist) it's probably an ok choice. But if you think you'll be battling BP's biglaw attorneys or whatever, No.

Well, that's probably true. I was more thinking of specifically environmental fedgov/non-profit jobs, in that I've seen VT grads in these jobs. But like I said, it still doesn't make VT a good option.

[Void]

To be honest, I do think Vermont pulls above its weight in government/PI environmental hiring. It still doesn't at ALL make specialty rankings a thing, or worth choosing your school based on, and it doesn't make going to Vermont for environmental law a good bet, in part because everyone goes to Vermont wanting to do environmental law, and it's still a tiny percentage of graduates who are going to have good outcomes. But I think it's fair to say that of the people who come out of Vermont getting jobs, a lot do end up doing environmental law in the public sector - it's just still a small number/percentage overall, and small enough not to bank on.

(I don't know anything about the environmental law firm hiring claim.)

I suspect that the school "pulls above its weight" because of region. It's the only law school in the entire state, and one of a tiny handful of schools in the northern New England region. So if you want a state govt job in Vermont or New Hampshire or maybe Maine (to the extent that these jobs exist) it's probably an ok choice. But if you think you'll be battling BP's biglaw attorneys or whatever, No.

Well, that's probably true. I was more thinking of specifically environmental fedgov/non-profit jobs, in that I've seen VT grads in these jobs. But like I said, it still doesn't make VT a good option.

I see. I admittedly know nothing about these sorts of jerbs.

[timbs4339]

Anyone thinking that VTs environmental law ranking means more than just how the school markets itself in the law porn sent to other deans and what professors care about has never been to law school.

I went to a T10. Because we were a rich school (like all T10s are), we had an environmental law clinic, access to environmental law internships, several environmental law professors who gave environmental law classes and seminars and an environmental law journal and center. I suspect most other elite law schools are the same. I can't think of anything any specialty program would have that is much different. In fact, elite schools are more likely to be able to provide funding that will allow a student to work at an organization for long enough to get hired. I know several friends who have done this.

That's more than enough exposure to environmental law for any organization (firm or government) to be sure that a candidate is into environmental law. At that point, typical hiring practices kick in, and the T10 resume is going to get the call every single time.

If you're talking about biglaw, where most of the entry-level jobs are going to be, then the same applies.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Anyone thinking that VTs environmental law ranking means more than just how the school markets itself in the law porn sent to other deans and what professors care about has never been to law school.

I went to a T10. Because we were a rich school (like all T10s are), we had an environmental law clinic, access to environmental law internships, several environmental law professors who gave environmental law classes and seminars and an environmental law journal and center. I suspect most other elite law schools are the same. I can't think of anything any specialty program would have that is much different. In fact, elite schools are more likely to be able to provide funding that will allow a student to work at an organization for long enough to get hired. I know several friends who have done this.

That's more than enough exposure to environmental law for any organization (firm or government) to be sure that a candidate is into environmental law. At that point, typical hiring practices kick in, and the T10 resume is going to get the call every single time.

If you're talking about biglaw, where most of the entry-level jobs are going to be, then the same applies.

Yes, I agree. Going to Vermont isn't going to give you an edge up in environmental law over people going to excellent schools (or an edge up in anything). I just find it interesting that of the people who get jobs out of Vermont, a lot actually do get them in environmental law - it's the only school where I've seen any remote correlation between the "specialty" and employment patterns. But to be clear, yes, any of the T14 (or however you want to divide the top schools) will provide you just as many if not more opportunities in environmental law than Vermont does (and many many more other opportunities that Vermont never could).

[AllTheLawz]

To be honest, I do think Vermont pulls above its weight in government/PI environmental hiring. It still doesn't at ALL make specialty rankings a thing, or worth choosing your school based on, and it doesn't make going to Vermont for environmental law a good bet, in part because everyone goes to Vermont wanting to do environmental law, and it's still a tiny percentage of graduates who are going to have good outcomes. But I think it's fair to say that of the people who come out of Vermont getting jobs, a lot do end up doing environmental law in the public sector - it's just still a small number/percentage overall, and small enough not to bank on.

(I don't know anything about the environmental law firm hiring claim.)

I suspect that the school "pulls above its weight" because of region. It's the only law school in the entire state, and one of a tiny handful of schools in the northern New England region. So if you want a state govt job in Vermont or New Hampshire or maybe Maine (to the extent that these jobs exist) it's probably an ok choice. But if you think you'll be battling BP's biglaw attorneys or whatever, No.

Well, that's probably true. I was more thinking of specifically environmental fedgov/non-profit jobs, in that I've seen VT grads in these jobs. But like I said, it still doesn't make VT a good option.

I worked with one of the top environmental legal orgs in the Northeast. The vast majority of "vermont grads" in our org and the other good orgs were LLM grads who usually had a top-20 JD. There were very, very few Vermont JDs in the top orgs. In fact, one of the other interns was a recent Vermont grad (with honors) who was having a very difficult time getting a job.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I worked with one of the top environmental legal orgs in the Northeast. The vast majority of "vermont grads" in our org and the other good orgs were LLM grads who usually had a top-20 JD. There were very, very few Vermont JDs in the top orgs. In fact, one of the other interns was a recent Vermont grad (with honors) who was having a very difficult time getting a job.

I believe you. That also doesn't contradict what I said.

I should also make clear - again - that I'm not saying Vermont offers more opportunities in environmental law. What I've observed is probably the result of self-selection more than anything else; Vermont so hypes its environmental law specialty that I'd bet the majority of people who go there want to do environmental law. Therefore any greater proportion of grads employed in environmental law likely results from having a larger proportion of students who push for it their whole time in law school. In fact, the proportion that gets environmental law is probably smaller than the proportion that wants it (which may not be the case at the top-20 example you give, or not to the same extent).

So I guess my point is only that it's an interesting example of how being touted for a particular "specialty" plays out.

[AllTheLawz]

I worked with one of the top environmental legal orgs in the Northeast. The vast majority of "vermont grads" in our org and the other good orgs were LLM grads who usually had a top-20 JD. There were very, very few Vermont JDs in the top orgs. In fact, one of the other interns was a recent Vermont grad (with honors) who was having a very difficult time getting a job.

I believe you. That's also not contradicting what I said.

Sorry, not meant to contradict. Adding a personal anecdote.

[Void]

I worked with one of the top environmental legal orgs in the Northeast. The vast majority of "vermont grads" in our org and the other good orgs were LLM grads who usually had a top-20 JD. There were very, very few Vermont JDs in the top orgs. In fact, one of the other interns was a recent Vermont grad (with honors) who was having a very difficult time getting a job.

Oooooh so maybe the correlation between VT grads and actual environmental jobs is actually a correlation between VT LLM grads and actual environmental jobs?

[A. Nony Mouse]

I worked with one of the top environmental legal orgs in the Northeast. The vast majority of "vermont grads" in our org and the other good orgs were LLM grads who usually had a top-20 JD. There were very, very few Vermont JDs in the top orgs. In fact, one of the other interns was a recent Vermont grad (with honors) who was having a very difficult time getting a job.

I believe you. That's also not contradicting what I said.

Sorry, not meant to contradict. Adding a personal anecdote.

Oh, I get you! Sorry if I sounded snooty.

The people I'm thinking of were Vermont JDs, not LLMs. But I'm also not remotely claiming it's some huge number of success stories - frankly, I was just surprised because Vermont sort of stuck out in the context of the other schools represented (usually more like the top-20, and it's not like Vermont is just under that ranking).

[AllTheLawz]

That's just flat out false. *ZERO* firms of 100+ attorneys hired a Vermont Law grad last year, and they regularly place well under 50% of their class into full-time lawyer jobs. Given that the overwhelming bulk of environmental law work is done in big firms (and 100 attorneys is a really low cut-off point for what is considered a "big firm"), I'd say your position holds no water at all. jbagel hit it on the head: being ranked #1 in a specialty ranking doesn't reflect hiring. Their environmental law clinics and classes may be outstanding, but they have putrid employment scores.

I actually wouldn't say this is completely correct. The type of work that "big firms" do is actually environmental defense work for major companies. Because of conflicts, big firms will pretty much never do environmental work for the "good side." Biglaw work is not the type of work most people truly interested in environmental law will do. Most of the work will be in gov't agencies, NGOs/PI, and a few smaller "private public interest" firms. Unfortunately, getting a spot in the top NGOs/PI or gov't agencies is generally much, much easier with some time in the litigation practice of a major or well-regarded law firm.

[timbs4339]

That's just flat out false. *ZERO* firms of 100+ attorneys hired a Vermont Law grad last year, and they regularly place well under 50% of their class into full-time lawyer jobs. Given that the overwhelming bulk of environmental law work is done in big firms (and 100 attorneys is a really low cut-off point for what is considered a "big firm"), I'd say your position holds no water at all. jbagel hit it on the head: being ranked #1 in a specialty ranking doesn't reflect hiring. Their environmental law clinics and classes may be outstanding, but they have putrid employment scores.

I actually wouldn't say this is completely correct. The type of work that "big firms" do is actually environmental defense work for major companies. Because of conflicts, big firms will pretty much never do environmental work for the "good side." Biglaw work is not the type of work most people truly interested in environmental law will do. Most of the work will be in gov't agencies, NGOs/PI, and a few smaller "private public interest" firms. Unfortunately, getting a spot in the top NGOs/PI or gov't agencies is generally much, much easier with some time in the litigation practice of a major or well-regarded law firm.

It might be helpful to have some big firm experience in order to get a job on the good side, though. Very few people in other major class action or impact areas (securities, mass tort, employment, consumer fraud, antitrust) start out in the boutique firms that tend to do that kind of work. That's not to say they wouldn't hire someone from the EPA, but fedgov work tends to correlate with a school's overall biglaw placement.

[romothesavior]

That's just flat out false. *ZERO* firms of 100+ attorneys hired a Vermont Law grad last year, and they regularly place well under 50% of their class into full-time lawyer jobs. Given that the overwhelming bulk of environmental law work is done in big firms (and 100 attorneys is a really low cut-off point for what is considered a "big firm"), I'd say your position holds no water at all. jbagel hit it on the head: being ranked #1 in a specialty ranking doesn't reflect hiring. Their environmental law clinics and classes may be outstanding, but they have putrid employment scores.

I actually wouldn't say this is completely correct. The type of work that "big firms" do is actually environmental defense work for major companies. Because of conflicts, big firms will pretty much never do environmental work for the "good side." Biglaw work is not the type of work most people truly interested in environmental law will do. Most of the work will be in gov't agencies, NGOs/PI, and a few smaller "private public interest" firms. Unfortunately, getting a spot in the top NGOs/PI or gov't agencies is generally much, much easier with some time in the litigation practice of a major or well-regarded law firm.

True, I should have been more clear: the overwhelming bulk of environmental law work is done in big firms or by big firm veterans who have gone into boutiques or public interest or government work. State and federal EPAs, boutiques and well-regarded private firms, energy and utility companies, and even the PI orgs and NGOs are full of big firm vets. It's not a prerequisite, but there is going to be a very strong correlation between a school's big firm placement and decent environmental law placement. If VT is placing 0% into big firms and less than 50% into FT/LT JD-required jobs, its pretty fair to assume that not many of their grads will end up doing the "sexy" environmental stuff that most folks have in mind when they think of environmental law.

[GreatNorth87]

To be honest, I do think Vermont pulls above its weight in government/PI environmental hiring. It still doesn't at ALL make specialty rankings a thing, or worth choosing your school based on, and it doesn't make going to Vermont for environmental law a good bet, in part because everyone goes to Vermont wanting to do environmental law, and it's still a tiny percentage of graduates who are going to have good outcomes. But I think it's fair to say that of the people who come out of Vermont getting jobs, a lot do end up doing environmental law in the public sector - it's just still a small number/percentage overall, and small enough not to bank on.

(I don't know anything about the environmental law firm hiring claim.)

I suspect that the school "pulls above its weight" because of region. It's the only law school in the entire state, and one of a tiny handful of schools in the northern New England region. So if you want a state govt job in Vermont or New Hampshire or maybe Maine (to the extent that these jobs exist) it's probably an ok choice. But if you think you'll be battling BP's biglaw attorneys or whatever, No.

It barely pulls its weight in the region. The largest firm in Vermont is about thirty people and there are barely larger firms in New Hampshire. Pierce Atwood, which is the big dog in Maine, wants nothing to do with Vermont Law. Boston is owned by the T14 and BC/BU. UCONN and the few people from the T14 returning to the region own Connecticut (less than 10 Yale graduates take the bar in CT every year) and no few Vermont Law people make it a firm down there. State government jobs in that area are tricky to find with hiring freezes and generally people have to wait for retirements before jobs open in Vermont and New Hampshire.

[GreatNorth87]

I stand by Vermont's Environmental Law Program.

I really thought you were joking.

http://www.vermontlaw.edu/News_and_Even ... e_Year.htm

5th year in a row. The environmental law firms hire in droves.

Oh, they come in droves? Can you even name a single environmental law firm off the top of your head? Can you name one that did OCI at Vermont? If you can name one, can you name ten? I'd say ten is barely "droves," but its a step towards substantiation your outrageous and baseless claim. Either you are lying, trolling, or flat out uninformed. None of which is a good thing and I hope you do more research before you start your 1L year

[Void]

To be honest, I do think Vermont pulls above its weight in government/PI environmental hiring. It still doesn't at ALL make specialty rankings a thing, or worth choosing your school based on, and it doesn't make going to Vermont for environmental law a good bet, in part because everyone goes to Vermont wanting to do environmental law, and it's still a tiny percentage of graduates who are going to have good outcomes. But I think it's fair to say that of the people who come out of Vermont getting jobs, a lot do end up doing environmental law in the public sector - it's just still a small number/percentage overall, and small enough not to bank on.

(I don't know anything about the environmental law firm hiring claim.)

I suspect that the school "pulls above its weight" because of region. It's the only law school in the entire state, and one of a tiny handful of schools in the northern New England region. So if you want a state govt job in Vermont or New Hampshire or maybe Maine (to the extent that these jobs exist) it's probably an ok choice. But if you think you'll be battling BP's biglaw attorneys or whatever, No.

It barely pulls its weight in the region. The largest firm in Vermont is about thirty people and there are barely larger firms in New Hampshire. Pierce Atwood, which is the big dog in Maine, wants nothing to do with Vermont Law. Boston is owned by the T14 and BC/BU. UCONN and the few people from the T14 returning to the region own Connecticut (less than 10 Yale graduates take the bar in CT every year) and no few Vermont Law people make it a firm down there. State government jobs in that area are tricky to find with hiring freezes and generally people have to wait for retirements before jobs open in Vermont and New Hampshire.

I said northern New England. If you were from New England, like I am, you would know that this doesn't include CT and Mass.

And I wasn't implying that there is a big market in northern New England or really a market at all. (Note "to the extent that these jobs exist"). But I bet if you collected all of the employed lawyers in Vermont you would find that a significant number of them went to Vermont Law- a greater ratio than the number of employed lawyers in Massachusetts who went to Western New England, for instance.

[timbs4339]

This is an environmental law firm: http://www.sprlaw.com/lawyers/index.shtml

There are five associates. 3 NYU, 2 Harvard.

[jbagelboy]

To be honest, I do think Vermont pulls above its weight in government/PI environmental hiring. It still doesn't at ALL make specialty rankings a thing, or worth choosing your school based on, and it doesn't make going to Vermont for environmental law a good bet, in part because everyone goes to Vermont wanting to do environmental law, and it's still a tiny percentage of graduates who are going to have good outcomes. But I think it's fair to say that of the people who come out of Vermont getting jobs, a lot do end up doing environmental law in the public sector - it's just still a small number/percentage overall, and small enough not to bank on.

(I don't know anything about the environmental law firm hiring claim.)

I suspect that the school "pulls above its weight" because of region. It's the only law school in the entire state, and one of a tiny handful of schools in the northern New England region. So if you want a state govt job in Vermont or New Hampshire or maybe Maine (to the extent that these jobs exist) it's probably an ok choice. But if you think you'll be battling BP's biglaw attorneys or whatever, No.

It barely pulls its weight in the region. The largest firm in Vermont is about thirty people and there are barely larger firms in New Hampshire. Pierce Atwood, which is the big dog in Maine, wants nothing to do with Vermont Law. Boston is owned by the T14 and BC/BU. UCONN and the few people from the T14 returning to the region own Connecticut (less than 10 Yale graduates take the bar in CT every year) and no few Vermont Law people make it a firm down there. State government jobs in that area are tricky to find with hiring freezes and generally people have to wait for retirements before jobs open in Vermont and New Hampshire.

I said northern New England. If you were from New England, like I am, you would know that this doesn't include CT and Mass.

And I wasn't implying that there is a big market in northern New England or really a market at all. (Note "to the extent that these jobs exist"). But I bet if you collected all of the employed lawyers in Vermont you would find that a significant number of them went to Vermont Law- a greater ratio than the number of employed lawyers in Massachusetts who went to Western New England, for instance.

Wait did you just say connecticut and massachusetts arent part of New England?

Wtf

[Void]

I said northern New England. If you were from New England, like I am, you would know that this doesn't include CT and Mass.

And I wasn't implying that there is a big market in northern New England or really a market at all. (Note "to the extent that these jobs exist"). But I bet if you collected all of the employed lawyers in Vermont you would find that a significant number of them went to Vermont Law- a greater ratio than the number of employed lawyers in Massachusetts who went to Western New England, for instance.

Wait did you just say connecticut and massachusetts arent part of New England?

Wtf

read it again. N-O-R-T-H-E-R-N New England.

[GreatNorth87]

To be honest, I do think Vermont pulls above its weight in government/PI environmental hiring. It still doesn't at ALL make specialty rankings a thing, or worth choosing your school based on, and it doesn't make going to Vermont for environmental law a good bet, in part because everyone goes to Vermont wanting to do environmental law, and it's still a tiny percentage of graduates who are going to have good outcomes. But I think it's fair to say that of the people who come out of Vermont getting jobs, a lot do end up doing environmental law in the public sector - it's just still a small number/percentage overall, and small enough not to bank on.

(I don't know anything about the environmental law firm hiring claim.)

I suspect that the school "pulls above its weight" because of region. It's the only law school in the entire state, and one of a tiny handful of schools in the northern New England region. So if you want a state govt job in Vermont or New Hampshire or maybe Maine (to the extent that these jobs exist) it's probably an ok choice. But if you think you'll be battling BP's biglaw attorneys or whatever, No.

It barely pulls its weight in the region. The largest firm in Vermont is about thirty people and there are barely larger firms in New Hampshire. Pierce Atwood, which is the big dog in Maine, wants nothing to do with Vermont Law. Boston is owned by the T14 and BC/BU. UCONN and the few people from the T14 returning to the region own Connecticut (less than 10 Yale graduates take the bar in CT every year) and no few Vermont Law people make it a firm down there. State government jobs in that area are tricky to find with hiring freezes and generally people have to wait for retirements before jobs open in Vermont and New Hampshire.

I said northern New England. If you were from New England, like I am, you would know that this doesn't include CT and Mass.

And I wasn't implying that there is a big market in northern New England or really a market at all. (Note "to the extent that these jobs exist"). But I bet if you collected all of the employed lawyers in Vermont you would find that a significant number of them went to Vermont Law- a greater ratio than the number of employed lawyers in Massachusetts who went to Western New England, for instance.