Stanford Vs. Chicago (Again)

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Greene
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Stanford Vs. Chicago (Again)

Postby Greene » Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:36 pm

Hello TLS, longtime lurker first time poster in my time of need.

As a waitlist admit to Stanford, I have a day to decide whether I would like to attend Stanford or Chicago.

COA (includes all costs, interest, etc.)
Chicago: 35k
Stanford: 125k

Goals: Work in prestigious biglaw in NY/DC/SF doing litigation, strong ties to SF. Some desire to clerk. No desire to teach or go into PI. I believe my Quality of Life would be much higher at Stanford, but maybe not 30k a year higher.

I have spoken to several students and attorneys and and most have said "Stanford, you idiot." When I press them as to why, they say Stanford will get you a better job, but when I refer to Law School Transparency, this doesn't seem to be the case using general categories. I've read the other Stanford v. Chicago threads and couldn't find anything other than speculation.

Stanford good jobs: 61.9% (33.7% at firms of 501+ and 28.2% at federal clerkships)
Chicago good jobs: 59.5% (45.1% at firms of 501+ and 14.4% at federal clerkships)

Can anyone point to reliable information that Stanford grads are getting better legal jobs in the private sector, esp. those at median?

What do you think is the better choice given my goals. I'm not including a poll because I'm looking for specific information about why your opinion is what it is?

NYstate
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Re: Stanford Vs. Chicago (Again)

Postby NYstate » Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:44 pm

Stanford is really pulling people off the wait list at the last minute. This is the third thread like this I've seen.

Is the amount for Stanford including your aid package?

I vote for Stanford because I think Stanford is amazing. Sorry if that isn't a convincing reason. You can get big law from Chicago if that is all you care about.

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sinfiery
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Re: Stanford Vs. Chicago (Again)

Postby sinfiery » Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:49 pm

Stanford probably has a noticeable edge in SF with a wash in NY and I'm not sure about DC. Not wanting Chicago whilst going to UChi probably isn't the best mindset to have either as it is a sizeable market their grads enter.

If you aren't open to working in Chicago, SLS
If you want to live in CA, SLS.
If you want to clerk, SLS.
If you ever see yourself ever doing PI, SLS.


If you really just are that open to a biglaw job in any of those markets, odds are you'll be at the same 160k job that is the same level of prestige in NYC regardless of if you go to UChi/SLS but out of debt 2-3 years quicker. Take UChi.


PS, I want your SLS slot

Greene
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Re: Stanford Vs. Chicago (Again)

Postby Greene » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:00 pm

NYstate wrote:Stanford is really pulling people off the wait list at the last minute. This is the third thread like this I've seen.

Is the amount for Stanford including your aid package?

I vote for Stanford because I think Stanford is amazing. Sorry if that isn't a convincing reason. You can get big law from Chicago if that is all you care about.


That figure does include aid. Your reason is what I've been getting a lot, but why do you think Stanford is substantially better then Chicago specifically?

sinfiery wrote:Stanford probably has a noticeable edge in SF with a wash in NY and I'm not sure about DC. Not wanting Chicago whilst going to UChi probably isn't the best mindset to have either as it is a sizeable market their grads enter.

If you aren't open to working in Chicago, SLS
If you want to live in CA, SLS.
If you want to clerk, SLS.
If you ever see yourself ever doing PI, SLS.


If you really just are that open to a biglaw job in any of those markets, odds are you'll be at the same 160k job that is the same level of prestige in NYC regardless of if you go to UChi/SLS but out of debt 2-3 years quicker. Take UChi.


PS, I want your SLS slot


I'll direct SLS to you should I choose UChi or die of an ulcer while deciding.

My understanding of employment is similar to yours. Stanford is the dominant school in SF, but my East Coast friends (layman) say it's nowhere near as prestigious east of the Mississippi. My fear of working in Chicago is also of note, although more than 60% of grads don't work there, so I'm not too worried. Should I be?

(You give awesome advice all over TLS by the way, so thanks)

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Stanford Vs. Chicago (Again)

Postby Dr. Dre » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:06 pm

i'm curious to know what ur numbers are. . . PM me if you dont want to poast here

any ways I'd choose

Image

NYstate
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Re: Stanford Vs. Chicago (Again)

Postby NYstate » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:10 pm

Don't underestimate Stanford prestige at law firms on the east coast. Law firms know the top schools. Stanford isnt going to hurt you anywhere and will help you in your preferred market. If you don't want to work in Chicago, why go to school there? But if all you care about is a big law job, save the money and go to Chicago. I'm sure someone below you on the wait list would love your spot.

I think you would be making a mistake, but $100,000 is a lot of money.

If you are all about prestige, Stanford wins easily.

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sinfiery
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Re: Stanford Vs. Chicago (Again)

Postby sinfiery » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:21 pm

Greene wrote:I'll direct SLS to you should I choose UChi or die of an ulcer while deciding.

My understanding of employment is similar to yours. Stanford is the dominant school in SF, but my East Coast friends (layman) say it's nowhere near as prestigious east of the Mississippi. My fear of working in Chicago is also of note, although more than 60% of grads don't work there, so I'm not too worried. Should I be?

(You give awesome advice all over TLS by the way, so thanks)

:lol: - Thanks


I would say that SLS is definitely still very respected in the East coast (though less than in SF) but there just isn't a huge gap between HYS and CCN as far as biglaw is concerned. The biggest advantages HYS provides are that they noticeably increase chances in obtaining a clerkship, academia, prestigious PI and biglaw in secondary markets (Especially SF with SLS).

If those aren't of particular concern to you, the gap really shrinks.
Though I believe NYC is an easier market to crack from UChi than Chicago (From what I've read here), I'm sure that if you assume yourself as a median student, not being able to bid both Chicago and NYC could add some definite risk to your chances at biglaw. Hopefully some UChi students can discuss how not bidding chicago changes your chances at OCI.

It is definitely something to consider though and may be enough to warrant picking SLS because geographical mobility as far as where you want to work is one of the biggest bonuses about attending HYS over CCN.


It really does seem like a difficult decision but there are no wrong answers. Either of those schools at that price are amazing opportunities. Goodluck!

Greene
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Re: Stanford Vs. Chicago (Again)

Postby Greene » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:24 pm

NYstate wrote:Don't underestimate Stanford prestige at law firms on the east coast. Law firms know the top schools. Stanford isnt going to hurt you anywhere and will help you in your preferred market. If you don't want to work in Chicago, why go to school there? But if all you care about is a big law job, save the money and go to Chicago. I'm sure someone below you on the wait list would love your spot.

I think you would be making a mistake, but $100,000 is a lot of money.


I am sure that Stanford is more prestigious on the East Coast than UChi, but I have trouble with the idea that Stanford is as prestigious as Harvard or Yale on the east coast. Or that it carries the same prestige benefits. UChi is a higher ranked university by US News. I don't know much about East Cast conceptions of Stanford, but even in CA it's considered similarly prestigious as Berkeley by many. Do you think that prestige bump is really worth 90k?

I don't want to live in Chicago in the long term because it's population is shrinking, it has an incredible crime rate, and the weather is very cold, all things that either don't effect me as a student or that I can deal with for three years, but not thirty.

NYstate
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Re: Stanford Vs. Chicago (Again)

Postby NYstate » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:41 pm

Greene wrote:
NYstate wrote:Don't underestimate Stanford prestige at law firms on the east coast. Law firms know the top schools. Stanford isnt going to hurt you anywhere and will help you in your preferred market. If you don't want to work in Chicago, why go to school there? But if all you care about is a big law job, save the money and go to Chicago. I'm sure someone below you on the wait list would love your spot.

I think you would be making a mistake, but $100,000 is a lot of money.


I am sure that Stanford is more prestigious on the East Coast than UChi, but I have trouble with the idea that Stanford is as prestigious as Harvard or Yale on the east coast. Or that it carries the same prestige benefits. UChi is a higher ranked university by US News. I don't know much about East Cast conceptions of Stanford, but even in CA it's considered similarly prestigious as Berkeley by many. Do you think that prestige bump is really worth 90k?

I don't want to live in Chicago in the long term because it's population is shrinking, it has an incredible crime rate, and the weather is very cold, all things that either don't effect me as a student or that I can deal with for three years, but not thirty.


Are you sure you want NYC or DC with their high crime rates?
As to prestige, the only people you should care about are your future employers and your future clients. Chicago and Stanford are both prestigious schools. Top firms know how selective Stanford is.

You sound like you don't want to go to Stanford or you don't think it is worth the money. I don't have data to convince you it would be better in terms of getting a biglaw job. Maybe if all you want is a biglaw job you should just go to the cheaper school. I would go to Stanford but I don't want to sell you on it.

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The Brainalist
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Re: Stanford Vs. Chicago (Again)

Postby The Brainalist » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:49 pm

It really shouldn't be a question about prestige. Nearly everyone in the legal profession who would be impressed by your admission to Stanford would also be impressed by Chicago. To the extent that USNews rankings matter to lay-people, you are talking about a school thats been ranked in the top 3 versus the top 5. (Chicago even ranked higher than Stanford this year in the UG rankings, #4 vs. #6.) I'm not saying its a wash in terms of prestige, but I am saying that you will impress people nationwide with your attendance at Chicago to the extent that was at all a concern.

If it weren't for the money, given your SF connection this would be easy. I'm a firm believer that taking out loans for full tuition and COL is a rip off. I don't think it is a normal or sensible thing to do, even though it gets justified again and again on this site, to take out 200k in loans for a piece of paper. Edit: Seeing that your figures were supposed to be COA, your situation isn't as extreme. Though I'm not clear on how you arrived at your figures, because, unless you are not including out-of-pocket cash financing in cost of attendence, your OP implies more than full tuition scholarship to Chicago.
Last edited by The Brainalist on Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: Stanford Vs. Chicago (Again)

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:58 pm

NYstate wrote:
Greene wrote:
NYstate wrote:Don't underestimate Stanford prestige at law firms on the east coast. Law firms know the top schools. Stanford isnt going to hurt you anywhere and will help you in your preferred market. If you don't want to work in Chicago, why go to school there? But if all you care about is a big law job, save the money and go to Chicago. I'm sure someone below you on the wait list would love your spot.

I think you would be making a mistake, but $100,000 is a lot of money.


I am sure that Stanford is more prestigious on the East Coast than UChi, but I have trouble with the idea that Stanford is as prestigious as Harvard or Yale on the east coast. Or that it carries the same prestige benefits. UChi is a higher ranked university by US News. I don't know much about East Cast conceptions of Stanford, but even in CA it's considered similarly prestigious as Berkeley by many. Do you think that prestige bump is really worth 90k?

I don't want to live in Chicago in the long term because it's population is shrinking, it has an incredible crime rate, and the weather is very cold, all things that either don't effect me as a student or that I can deal with for three years, but not thirty.


Are you sure you want NYC or DC with their high crime rates?
As to prestige, the only people you should care about are your future employers and your future clients. Chicago and Stanford are both prestigious schools. Top firms know how selective Stanford is.

You sound like you don't want to go to Stanford or you don't think it is worth the money. I don't have data to convince you it would be better in terms of getting a biglaw job. Maybe if all you want is a biglaw job you should just go to the cheaper school. I would go to Stanford but I don't want to sell you on it.


Exactly. The crime in Chicago isn't bad if you have money. Yes, if you live in Englewood there is a lot of crime but if you move to NYC are you living in the Bronx? The weather thing is overblown as well. Chicago to LA is a huge difference but Chicago to NYC isn't that big of a difference and do you really care about shrinking population? Even if you did Chicago population increased from 2010 to 2011. If I wanted to do Biglaw no way in the world I'd go to Stanford for 100K more. I know people on TLS make 100K seem like nothing but it's actually a ton of money.

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twenty
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Re: Stanford Vs. Chicago (Again)

Postby twenty » Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:00 pm

In a similar thread, I voted for UVA with a full ride over Stanford.

35k COA and serious ties to SF AND you want biglaw? Chicago.

Create a poll?

coldweather
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Re: Stanford Vs. Chicago (Again)

Postby coldweather » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:05 pm

I can provide some anecdotal evidence that I heard at Stanford's ASW. I talked to several students (2ls 3ls) who claimed that if you want a fed clerkship you can obtain one. It might not be in the most prestigious market, but they assert that the people who actively searched for fed clerkships received one. I believe this is the biggest advantage Stanford has over Chicago.

Now concerning academic culture between the two schools. I believe that the schools are drastically different. First, grades on a point scale vs H/P system produce different cultured schools. I sensed this at ASW. Most SLS students did not discuss grades and were particularly flip about H's and P's. It seemed as though they accepted that there is some randomness about the grades and that most students have a healthy mix of H's and P's. For some people this is a turn off because they thirst for a cut throat environment. This is really a personal preference. Second, and obviously the most important distinction of the schools is the weather (JK but it is something to think about). The harsh cold wind of Chicago and the thug gangs on the corner of every street vs the paradise of palm trees and a beaming sun that enlightens every students soul. Basically all personal preference. No judgement here.

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: Stanford Vs. Chicago (Again)

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:08 pm

coldweather wrote:I can provide some anecdotal evidence that I heard at Stanford's ASW. I talked to several students (2ls 3ls) who claimed that if you want a fed clerkship you can obtain one. It might not be in the most prestigious market, but they assert that the people who actively searched for fed clerkships received one. I believe this is the biggest advantage Stanford has over Chicago.

Now concerning academic culture between the two schools. I believe that the schools are drastically different. First, grades on a point scale vs H/P system produce different cultured schools. I sensed this at ASW. Most SLS students did not discuss grades and were particularly flip about H's and P's. It seemed as though they accepted that there is some randomness about the grades and that most students have a healthy mix of H's and P's. For some people this is a turn off because they thirst for a cut throat environment. This is really a personal preference. Second, and obviously the most important distinction of the schools is the weather (JK but it is something to think about). The harsh cold wind of Chicago and the thug gangs on the corner of every street vs the paradise of palm trees and a beaming sun that enlightens every students soul. Basically all personal preference. No judgement here.


You've never been to Chicago.

coldweather
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Re: Stanford Vs. Chicago (Again)

Postby coldweather » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:11 pm

[/quote]You've never been to Chicago.[/quote]

Lol Its called exaggeration. I basically grew up in Chicago.

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twenty
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Re: Stanford Vs. Chicago (Again)

Postby twenty » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:13 pm

coldweather wrote:paradise of palm trees and a beaming sun that enlightens every students soul.


You've clearly never been to northern California. ;)

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L’Étranger
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Re: Stanford Vs. Chicago (Again)

Postby L’Étranger » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:15 pm

FWIW. I vote Uchi. It will in all likelihood lead to the same career outcome plus you end up with $90,000 in your pocket.

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banjo
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Re: Stanford Vs. Chicago (Again)

Postby banjo » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:18 pm

I would take SLS. The impression I get around here is that even straight Ps at SLS can get you large firm work if you want it, which doesn't seem to be true about poor grades at Chicago. That career safety would be worth a lot to me.

Of course, that impression could have very little to do with a difference in placement power between the schools. Maybe SLS students have truly exceptional backgrounds and interviewing ability compared to Chicago students. Or maybe SLS students struggling for work are less likely to show up on TLS -- when 30% of their class goes on to clerk, how do you think an SLS student would feel reporting that they struck out? Or maybe the differences outside of clerkships and the like are just noise and there's no real difference in positive outcomes at all. You have to decide.

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Re: Stanford Vs. Chicago (Again)

Postby Yukos » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:30 pm

SLS is a little less risky since you would be hard pressed to walk out of it without a firm job and it'll be much easier to get to SF. That being said, I don't think Chicago is that risky, especially if you're willing to gun hard for NYC. Since you don't have an overwhelming desire to clerk or do PI/gov, I just don't see how SLS is worth another $100k (making $160k with only $30k in debt sounds unbelievably wonderful too).

All things considered, I vote Chicago but that's a fantastic price for SLS (basically half of what I'll be paying) and there'll be a lot less pressure since you'd almost be guaranteed a job no matter your grades.

Ti Malice
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Re: Stanford Vs. Chicago (Again)

Postby Ti Malice » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:12 pm

Greene wrote:Stanford good jobs: 61.9% (33.7% at firms of 501+ and 28.2% at federal clerkships)
Chicago good jobs: 59.5% (45.1% at firms of 501+ and 14.4% at federal clerkships)


That's a terribly oversimplified measurement of placement into "good jobs" to begin with, and it's wholly inadequate for YHS, where there's heavy self-selection into "prestigious PI" and top government jobs as well as the most lucrative J.D.-advantage jobs. These are all people who could have gotten BigLaw had they wanted it. There are a good number of people at YHS who would view BigLaw as a disappointing outcome.

If your goals are strictly BigLaw, however, I think it's perfectly reasonable to take Chicago here. The $90K difference at the start of repayment will be significantly greater as interest piles up on your SLS debt long after your Chicago debt would have been paid off. SLS would provide

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Re: Stanford Vs. Chicago (Again)

Postby Greene » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:28 pm

Ti Malice wrote:
Greene wrote:Stanford good jobs: 61.9% (33.7% at firms of 501+ and 28.2% at federal clerkships)
Chicago good jobs: 59.5% (45.1% at firms of 501+ and 14.4% at federal clerkships)


That's a terribly oversimplified measurement of placement into "good jobs" to begin with, and it's wholly inadequate for YHS, where there's heavy self-selection into "prestigious PI" and top government jobs as well as the most lucrative J.D.-advantage jobs. These are all people who could have gotten BigLaw had they wanted it. There are a good number of people at YHS who would view BigLaw as a disappointing outcome.

If your goals are strictly BigLaw, however, I think it's perfectly reasonable to take Chicago here. The $90K difference at the start of repayment will be significantly greater as interest piles up on your SLS debt long after your Chicago debt would have been paid off. SLS would provide


You seem very passionate and your opinion is covered in my OP:

"When I press them as to why, they say Stanford will get you a better job, but when I refer to Law School Transparency, this doesn't seem to be the case using general categories. I've read the other Stanford v. Chicago threads and couldn't find anything other than speculation.

Stanford good jobs: 61.9% (33.7% at firms of 501+ and 28.2% at federal clerkships)
Chicago good jobs: 59.5% (45.1% at firms of 501+ and 14.4% at federal clerkships)

Can anyone point to reliable information that Stanford grads are getting better legal jobs in the private sector, esp. those at median?"

Because my interest is in high paying private legal work, none of the fields you mentioned are relevant to me, but I would be interested in any evidence that this does in fact happen? Do you believe that better high-paying private litigation jobs would be available to a Stanford grad than a Chicago grad? According to Leiter (I know, I know) more Chicago grads are in boutiques than Stanford grads. Which would seem to favor Chicago.

You seem very impassioned, but I am honestly hoping you could provide any data?

20141023
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Re: Stanford Vs. Chicago (Again)

Postby 20141023 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:55 pm

.
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Yukos
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Re: Stanford Vs. Chicago (Again)

Postby Yukos » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:05 pm

Greene wrote:
Ti Malice wrote:
Greene wrote:Stanford good jobs: 61.9% (33.7% at firms of 501+ and 28.2% at federal clerkships)
Chicago good jobs: 59.5% (45.1% at firms of 501+ and 14.4% at federal clerkships)


That's a terribly oversimplified measurement of placement into "good jobs" to begin with, and it's wholly inadequate for YHS, where there's heavy self-selection into "prestigious PI" and top government jobs as well as the most lucrative J.D.-advantage jobs. These are all people who could have gotten BigLaw had they wanted it. There are a good number of people at YHS who would view BigLaw as a disappointing outcome.

If your goals are strictly BigLaw, however, I think it's perfectly reasonable to take Chicago here. The $90K difference at the start of repayment will be significantly greater as interest piles up on your SLS debt long after your Chicago debt would have been paid off. SLS would provide


You seem very passionate and your opinion is covered in my OP:

"When I press them as to why, they say Stanford will get you a better job, but when I refer to Law School Transparency, this doesn't seem to be the case using general categories. I've read the other Stanford v. Chicago threads and couldn't find anything other than speculation.

Stanford good jobs: 61.9% (33.7% at firms of 501+ and 28.2% at federal clerkships)
Chicago good jobs: 59.5% (45.1% at firms of 501+ and 14.4% at federal clerkships)

Can anyone point to reliable information that Stanford grads are getting better legal jobs in the private sector, esp. those at median?"

Because my interest is in high paying private legal work, none of the fields you mentioned are relevant to me, but I would be interested in any evidence that this does in fact happen? Do you believe that better high-paying private litigation jobs would be available to a Stanford grad than a Chicago grad? According to Leiter (I know, I know) more Chicago grads are in boutiques than Stanford grads. Which would seem to favor Chicago.

You seem very impassioned, but I am honestly hoping you could provide any data?


1) You keep acting like he's passionate about HYS if it's possible to be passionate about a mini-tier (he goes to Yale so he's not personally attached to SLS) but he recommended you go to Chicago.

2) He didn't say anything about better private sector jobs. He simply said looking ONLY at clerkships + huge firms (which aren't the most selective, btw) won't tell you anything about whether SLS can get you "better" jobs since a lot of people at HYS self-select into prestigious PI and gov.

3) It's common sense that elite firms (not 501+ firms; firms like W&C, WLRK, MTO, KVN that are very small and take on bet-the-company matters) have lower grade cutoffs at HYS than at Chicago, but the only way to have data to back that up would be to share internal CSO data, which is generally not allowed.

4) As Ti Malice helpfully pointed out, all of this worrying about "more prestigious jobs" is mental masturbation since Chicago will in all likelihood give you a great job from median for much less money. If for some bizarre reason you're KVN or bust, then you can start worrying about whether SLS gets you a better private-sector firm job at percentile X. As it stands, you want biglaw, you don't care about location, and UChi is significantly cheaper -- there's not much reason to take SLS, but no one would fault you if you did.

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Re: Stanford Vs. Chicago (Again)

Postby Ti Malice » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:18 pm

"Passion" doesn't have anything to do with it. I come across as a little brusque when I'm in a hurry/multitasking.

The other fields are relevant to you, because the jobs in those fields are generally much harder to get than BigLaw. And part of the point was that your "general categories" are not really adequate even for your interests. There are plenty of "good jobs" -- as in market-paying BigLaw jobs -- at firms with fewer than 501 attorneys. One of those jobs may not be your favored outcome, but it's pretty silly to say that a market-paying job at a 400-person firm is anything less than a "good job." (I'm one of the people who self-selected out of BigLaw before starting law school, so this is outside my range of expertise, but I'm pretty sure that some of the very most elite firms have fewer than 501 attorneys.)

And, no, there is no neatly systematized single collection of data for you to review. Not even close. There's the aggregate knowledge of hundreds of students at top law schools here, which is pretty valuable. If that strikes you as mere speculation, which I think is a pretty inaccurate characterization, then there's not really much else out there to satisfy you.

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Re: Stanford Vs. Chicago (Again)

Postby Ti Malice » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:25 pm

Yukos wrote:
Greene wrote:
Ti Malice wrote:
Greene wrote:Stanford good jobs: 61.9% (33.7% at firms of 501+ and 28.2% at federal clerkships)
Chicago good jobs: 59.5% (45.1% at firms of 501+ and 14.4% at federal clerkships)


That's a terribly oversimplified measurement of placement into "good jobs" to begin with, and it's wholly inadequate for YHS, where there's heavy self-selection into "prestigious PI" and top government jobs as well as the most lucrative J.D.-advantage jobs. These are all people who could have gotten BigLaw had they wanted it. There are a good number of people at YHS who would view BigLaw as a disappointing outcome.

If your goals are strictly BigLaw, however, I think it's perfectly reasonable to take Chicago here. The $90K difference at the start of repayment will be significantly greater as interest piles up on your SLS debt long after your Chicago debt would have been paid off. SLS would provide


You seem very passionate and your opinion is covered in my OP:

"When I press them as to why, they say Stanford will get you a better job, but when I refer to Law School Transparency, this doesn't seem to be the case using general categories. I've read the other Stanford v. Chicago threads and couldn't find anything other than speculation.

Stanford good jobs: 61.9% (33.7% at firms of 501+ and 28.2% at federal clerkships)
Chicago good jobs: 59.5% (45.1% at firms of 501+ and 14.4% at federal clerkships)

Can anyone point to reliable information that Stanford grads are getting better legal jobs in the private sector, esp. those at median?"

Because my interest is in high paying private legal work, none of the fields you mentioned are relevant to me, but I would be interested in any evidence that this does in fact happen? Do you believe that better high-paying private litigation jobs would be available to a Stanford grad than a Chicago grad? According to Leiter (I know, I know) more Chicago grads are in boutiques than Stanford grads. Which would seem to favor Chicago.

You seem very impassioned, but I am honestly hoping you could provide any data?


1) You keep acting like he's passionate about HYS if it's possible to be passionate about a mini-tier (he goes to Yale so he's not personally attached to SLS) but he recommended you go to Chicago.

2) He didn't say anything about better private sector jobs. He simply said looking ONLY at clerkships + huge firms (which aren't the most selective, btw) won't tell you anything about whether SLS can get you "better" jobs since a lot of people at HYS self-select into prestigious PI and gov.

3) It's common sense that elite firms (not 501+ firms; firms like W&C, WLRK, MTO, KVN that are very small and take on bet-the-company matters) have lower grade cutoffs at HYS than at Chicago, but the only way to have data to back that up would be to share internal CSO data, which is generally not allowed.

4) As Ti Malice helpfully pointed out, all of this worrying about "more prestigious jobs" is mental masturbation since Chicago will in all likelihood give you a great job from median for much less money. If for some bizarre reason you're KVN or bust, then you can start worrying about whether SLS gets you a better private-sector firm job at percentile X. As it stands, you want biglaw, you don't care about location, and UChi is significantly cheaper -- there's not much reason to take SLS, but no one would fault you if you did.


Thanks for making my post completely irrelevant, Yukos. :P




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