One week left to decide, Please advise! Tier 1 vs Tier 2

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Void
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Re: One week left to decide, Please advise! Tier 1 vs Tier 2

Postby Void » Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:15 pm

Ti Malice wrote:
Void wrote:
Ti Malice wrote:
jarofsoup wrote:You didn't get into Hastings, Davis, Santa Clara or any CA schools with your LSAT score?


All three of those schools would be worse choices than what OP already has on the table.


Except he actually wants to be in CA and doesn't appear to want to be in NJ. If you're going to graduate without a job either way, you may as well be someplace nice. Plus, being homeless in CA is pretty easy, weather-wise.


Except Rutgers is offering him a full ride whereas stingy Hastings/Davis would leave him with $200K+ of debt at graduation (probably closer to $300K). If you're going to graduate unemployed, you may as well not also graduate in utter financial ruin. And he did say he had no real preference as to where he ends up working, so emphasizing CA schools that amount to horrible investments just because of his "perfect world" statement makes no sense at all.


You're right. I posted my comment before learning that a full ride at a CA school was out of the question even with retake.

cidergirl
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Re: One week left to decide, Please advise! Tier 1 vs Tier 2

Postby cidergirl » Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:10 pm

I really think this is a case where you take the full ride. The difference between tier 1 and tier 2 is not really that great--at least between the two schools you mentioned--and rankings above T30 fluctuate a great deal every year. The difference in debt is substantial and could be an albatross around your neck unless you are at the tippy top of your class at Houston. Good luck!

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Yukos
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Re: One week left to decide, Please advise! Tier 1 vs Tier 2

Postby Yukos » Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:13 pm

cidergirl wrote:I really think this is a case where you take the full ride. The difference between tier 1 and tier 2 is not really that great--at least between the two schools you mentioned--and rankings above T30 fluctuate a great deal every year. The difference in debt is substantial and could be an albatross around your neck unless you are at the tippy top of your class at Houston. Good luck!


Even without the debt, I don't see the wisdom of studying for three years for a 63% chance of a legal job that probably doesn't pay that well (though RU-C hides its median-salary data so we don't know for sure) in a market OP apparently doesn't like. And if OP isn't from Jersey, his odds of getting a legal job could be lower than 63% depending on how distrusting the market is of outsiders.

OP needs to say "I am sure I want to be a lawyer, I'm from Jersey and have no issue staying there, especially South Jersey, all my life" for Rutgers-Camden to be worth it. If any part of that statement isn't true, he needs to rethink law school and/or retake the LSAT.

And OP, PLEASE tell us where you're from...

un bon avocat
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Re: One week left to decide, Please advise! Tier 1 vs Tier 2

Postby un bon avocat » Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:58 pm

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un bon avocat
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Re: One week left to decide, Please advise! Tier 1 vs Tier 2

Postby un bon avocat » Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:01 pm

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Re: One week left to decide, Please advise! Tier 1 vs Tier 2

Postby un bon avocat » Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:02 pm

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ggocat
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Re: One week left to decide, Please advise! Tier 1 vs Tier 2

Postby ggocat » Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:15 pm

un bon avocat wrote: I am at this point, heavily leaning towards either retaking, or doing Houston and just not looking back. Rutgers is just not feeling good to me, regardless of the full ride.

I have no idea why you are leaning Houston when the price difference is $85K plus interest and you have no ties to Houston. At least Rutgers can be explained to CA employers if that's your target market ("They gave me a full ride plus $5k stipend" is a pretty good explanation). Worst case scenario you graduate with $0 debt.

Retaking is always a good idea, but with your GPA the benefits are limited. Maybe you'll get into USC/UCLA or something, but the debt will be insane (same thing with T14).

un bon avocat
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Re: One week left to decide, Please advise! Tier 1 vs Tier 2

Postby un bon avocat » Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:38 pm

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Re: One week left to decide, Please advise! Tier 1 vs Tier 2

Postby un bon avocat » Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:40 pm

I do have some extended family in Houston, and I think I could swing some sort of a convincing story about ties out here. Albeit the ties are tenuous at best.

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untar614
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Re: One week left to decide, Please advise! Tier 1 vs Tier 2

Postby untar614 » Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:57 pm

un bon avocat wrote:So employers in the Bay area will be very wary of hiring someone who isn't from the area? What if I tell them that Houston gave me a scholarship as well (this is true, I'm at around 45% scholly)

Also, I'm leaning Houston because I would RATHER be in Houston than Jersey. I can see myself living in Houston for several years before eventually moving to my target market of San Francisco. My girlfriend/fiance will be attending dental school in the Bay Area this fall, and so I can definitely explain some sort of ties to them out there.

Well if you two are really serious and engaged (not sure why you would say "girlfriend/fiance" rather than just one), then why rack up more debt for the two of you for specious job prospects on your end? Instead, you as a couple would be much better off if you went and lived with her and you got a job there to pay for living expenses. That way, she'll have much less loans to pay off and have interest accumulate on and you'll be saving on living expenses by living together as well. You may wanna sign the marriage papers first though, just to be safe, if you can.

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Yukos
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Re: One week left to decide, Please advise! Tier 1 vs Tier 2

Postby Yukos » Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:00 pm

You were smart to decline all the CA schools. Without ties it would just be too risky to go anywhere in CA other than Berkeley or Stanford.

As far as getting to CA from Rutgers or Houston, that seems incredibly unlikely. There are TTTs like Santa Clara and lower T1s like Hastings and Davis pumping out thousands of students into the market, why would an employer look at someone from a school they probably haven't even heard of like Rutgers? Law school hiring is local -- don't go to a school outside of the region you want to work unless it's a T14 (and even then you're going to have trouble getting into a market that you don't have ties to, with the exception of NYC).

There's some solid and cheap options in Virginia. If I were you I would probably retake, work for a year to save up some money and try to get schollies at W&L and W&M. Neither are fantastic but they have OK employment prospects and with in-state tuition plus a scholly they shouldn't set you back too much. I don't think Houston or Rutgers are good choices for you at all, and Houston would be downright reckless with that COA.

Hope this helps OP. You seem like a nice guy, so I hope you figure out something that is both a) financially responsible and b) more likely than not to lead to a career you can live with.

Redfactor
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Re: One week left to decide, Please advise! Tier 1 vs Tier 2

Postby Redfactor » Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:14 pm

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hoos89
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Re: One week left to decide, Please advise! Tier 1 vs Tier 2

Postby hoos89 » Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:20 pm

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un bon avocat
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Re: One week left to decide, Please advise! Tier 1 vs Tier 2

Postby un bon avocat » Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:53 am

Yea..I didn't realize WUSTL was that splitter friendly.

Yea..its kind of overwhelming figuring out life decisions along with relationship, and etc. But thank you all.

PRgradBYU
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Re: One week left to decide, Please advise! Tier 1 vs Tier 2

Postby PRgradBYU » Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:59 am

Retake > Rutgers >>> UH

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paglababa
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Re: One week left to decide, Please advise! Tier 1 vs Tier 2

Postby paglababa » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:06 am

PRgradBYU wrote:Retake > Rutgers >>> UH


+1. Do not go to UH no matter what.

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hoos89
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Re: One week left to decide, Please advise! Tier 1 vs Tier 2

Postby hoos89 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:04 am

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JuTMSY4
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Re: One week left to decide, Please advise! Tier 1 vs Tier 2

Postby JuTMSY4 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:15 am

I'm a RU-C grad and I'll give you my unsolicited opinion

Pros
1) Access to the Philly Legal market - we do as well as 'Nova, Drexel or PSU. Penn is obviously superior to both NY and Philly and Temple owns the public service gigs
2) Guaranteed state level clerkship - not glamorous, but it's preferable to some bigger debt PA schools which could leave you completely high and dry.
3) Rutgers name oddly travels well, but might be conjecture. For some reason, west coasters think its a great school. Not sure why. All of my west coast graduate friends are employed - this might also be a self-selection issue in terms of who I know.
4) Camden hate is overrated. I live(d) in the 'burbs and with public transport (which is 2 blocks from the school) its a non-issue. I also lived in Camden for a year. That area is more empty than dangerous.
5) Cheap - need I say more?
6) Good alumni base
7) Invested faculty. Not all are perfect, but I've never had a hard time get LORs, connections, people to talk to, etc. They're also some well-respected folks.
8 ) small class size - I think the incoming class is sub-150


Cons
1) It's in Jersey. Your best job chances are in Jersey. You can do ok in Philly (I have ties to PA personally, but I always wanted this region)
2) Terrible administration - it's a state school
3) BigLaw limited - about 20 of my classmates went big law.
4) There's an odd sort of expectation of clerkships in Jersey now. You pretty much have to clerk to get a ton of different jobs out there
5) Prestige-factor.
6) I know one RU-C grad who is a professor...at RU-C
7) Still in Camden and your other option is Philly...

Also, Rutgers-Camden and Newark are merging. I think it's a great idea, but take it for what it's worth and the unknown that I do no know how it will affect you. I think the effect will be a net positive, but hard to say for sure.

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ggocat
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Re: One week left to decide, Please advise! Tier 1 vs Tier 2

Postby ggocat » Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:33 pm

un bon avocat wrote:So employers in the Bay area will be very wary of hiring someone who isn't from the area? What if I tell them that Houston gave me a scholarship as well (this is true, I'm at around 45% scholly)

Also, I'm leaning Houston because I would RATHER be in Houston than Jersey. I can see myself living in Houston for several years before eventually moving to my target market of San Francisco. My girlfriend/fiance will be attending dental school in the Bay Area this fall, and so I can definitely explain some sort of ties to them out there.

They won't necessarily be very wary of hiring someone from outside the area, but they may question why this person would go to a random school in TX when there are comparable options in CA. (I am surprised you did not get scholarships to any of your CA schools; did you try to negotiate with your UH offer? Perhaps you applied late in the cycle?)

The gradation of USNWR tier 1/2/3 will not matter much for schools that the employer is unfamiliar with. In other words, I don't think it will be easier for you to get a job in the Bay area coming from Houston compared to Rutgers. And when the difference in cost is $85K plus interest, I don't see "I like Houston better" as a very good reason.

When I was choosing a law school in about 5 years ago, the general advice was to imagine you would graduate in the middle of the class--at which school would you rather graduate from? This advice still holds true, IMO. Here, I think the answer is debt-free from almost any school rather than $85K in debt from a market where you don't particularly want to stay.

And this is coming from an attorney in Houston with respect for UH as a school. But I am very averse to debt, and I would tell someone to go to most TTT/TTTT schools debt-free over UH with $85K in debt. That's the decision I was faced with (well actually, less debt from UH), and I took the TTT. YMMV, and good luck wherever you go.

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twenty
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Re: One week left to decide, Please advise! Tier 1 vs Tier 2

Postby twenty » Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:41 pm

Does no one understand that a 2.7 will not get him into a T14/California school worth going to?


Don't go > IF YOU MUST = Rutgers > UH

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Icculus
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Re: One week left to decide, Please advise! Tier 1 vs Tier 2

Postby Icculus » Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:51 pm

twentypercentmore wrote:Does no one understand that a 2.7 will not get him into a T14/California school worth going to?


Don't go > IF YOU MUST = Rutgers > UH


A 172+ would probably get OP into a T14 esp. if he had w/e.

blsingindisguise
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Re: One week left to decide, Please advise! Tier 1 vs Tier 2

Postby blsingindisguise » Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:14 pm

Rutgers or don't go. Retaking has a limited upside for you at this point -- a bump even to the mid-170s gives you only an outside shot at T-14.

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hoos89
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Re: One week left to decide, Please advise! Tier 1 vs Tier 2

Postby hoos89 » Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:21 pm

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twenty
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Re: One week left to decide, Please advise! Tier 1 vs Tier 2

Postby twenty » Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:33 pm

170 would give him a solid crack at Northwestern and GTown.


A 172+ would probably get OP into a T14 esp. if he had w/e.


Seriously? I know sometimes 2.9's sneak through, but a 2.7 seems awfully low.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: One week left to decide, Please advise! Tier 1 vs Tier 2

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:56 pm

twentypercentmore wrote:
170 would give him a solid crack at Northwestern and GTown.


A 172+ would probably get OP into a T14 esp. if he had w/e.


Seriously? I know sometimes 2.9's sneak through, but a 2.7 seems awfully low.

A famous TLS mod rocked a 2.54/173 to acceptance when there were twice as many applicants.




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