Success Coming out of a TTT/TTTT

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Rwong
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Success Coming out of a TTT/TTTT

Postby Rwong » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:02 pm

I once frequented this forum as a student. I was able to see that most of the people who post here choose to attend top law schools (fitting, given the name of this forum). However, for more reasons than one, and despite having had the possibility to attend a top 50 school, I chose to attend a TTTT, which eventually became a TTT. I had three job offers six months prior to graduation (and no, my parents are not lawyers, and I am only the second person in my family to ever attend college). I have been practicing for more than a year, and I truly enjoy my life.

I just wanted to make myself available and answer any questions for those of you considering making a similar choice

Feel free to ask any questions. :)

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kwais
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Re: Success Coming out of a TTT/TTTT

Postby kwais » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:06 pm

Since you must have known many hard working classmates who had poor outcomes, what do you think separated you from them?

Rwong
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Re: Success Coming out of a TTT/TTTT

Postby Rwong » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:26 pm

kwais wrote:Since you must have known many hard working classmates who had poor outcomes, what do you think separated you from them?



To be honest, most of the hard-working people have a job. My graduating class only had 144 people (so you get to know a lot/most of them). A lot of people had jobs upon graduation (and even before), and most found jobs upon passing the Bar. I really do not know any unemployed people from my graduating class (there must be a few) but I just do not know of them. In fact, a few got Fed. Circuit clerkships, state clerkships, and one or two work in Big Law.

One thing I think always kept me motivated was knowing that I was at a lower-ranked school. I knew (or thought) that finding a job would be A LOT more difficult, so I just went above and beyond in every aspect. I worked 30-35hrs/week all of my 2L and 3L year (while going to school full time); I also worked full-time every summer because I knew the place I was working at was the safest bet in terms of employment, so I wanted to impress them and make connections. I interned for a federal judge, was in the executive board of law review, volunteered for stuff I really did not want to attend, and obsessed over my grades. I pretty much was miserable for three years, but I can tell you that people who did not appear to be nearly as miserable still were able to find jobs.

Ti Malice
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Re: Success Coming out of a TTT/TTTT

Postby Ti Malice » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:31 pm

What was your approximate class rank? Did you do other things in law school that distinguished you from your peers (e.g., EIC of law review, best oralist or brief in moot court, etc.)?

Did you attend on a scholarship? If so, what percentage of your tuition was covered? Did it seem that many of your peers were also on scholarships? What were the stipulations, roughly, for maintaining the scholarship from year to year?

What's the size of the city or town in which the TTT is located? Is it located in a primary legal market? Smaller market? Coastal or flyover?

What kind of legal market are you working in? Large? Small? Coastal? Flyover? Is your job located in the same region as your school?

What kind of work are you doing? Have any people you know from your class formed their own firms together?

Thanks!

Ti Malice
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Re: Success Coming out of a TTT/TTTT

Postby Ti Malice » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:36 pm

A couple of others:

Is the school located in the region where you grew up, attended college, or worked prior to attending law school? Did most of your classmates have ties to the area?

How many years out of undergrad were you when you entered law school? What did you study in undergrad? If you worked before law school, what kind of work did you do?

Thanks again!

rad lulz
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Re: Success Coming out of a TTT/TTTT

Postby rad lulz » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:39 pm

Rwong wrote:
kwais wrote:Since you must have known many hard working classmates who had poor outcomes, what do you think separated you from them?



To be honest, most of the hard-working people have a job. My graduating class only had 144 people (so you get to know a lot/most of them). A lot of people had jobs upon graduation (and even before), and most found jobs upon passing the Bar. I really do not know any unemployed people from my graduating class (there must be a few) but I just do not know of them. In fact, a few got Fed. Circuit clerkships, state clerkships, and one or two work in Big Law.

One thing I think always kept me motivated was knowing that I was at a lower-ranked school. I knew (or thought) that finding a job would be A LOT more difficult, so I just went above and beyond in every aspect. I worked 30-35hrs/week all of my 2L and 3L year (while going to school full time); I also worked full-time every summer because I knew the place I was working at was the safest bet in terms of employment, so I wanted to impress them and make connections. I interned for a federal judge, was in the executive board of law review, volunteered for stuff I really did not want to attend, and obsessed over my grades. I pretty much was miserable for three years, but I can tell you that people who did not appear to be nearly as miserable still were able to find jobs.

What is your schools LST score

timmyd
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Re: Success Coming out of a TTT/TTTT

Postby timmyd » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:41 pm

I just transferred from a TTT. It remains to be seen if it was a good decision because I will be in substantially more debt. What TTT? They are not all created equally. Some TTT are better in terms of employment than TTs because of their market. You mentioned you were on law review. How are the people that were not on law review doing? I just left because I was tired of getting passed over for jobs because employers just trusted kids more that came from x TT school or Y low tier 1. I ended up at the University of Texas School of Law but like I said, it remains to be seen if it will pay dividends.

Rwong
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Re: Success Coming out of a TTT/TTTT

Postby Rwong » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:02 pm

Ti Malice wrote:What was your approximate class rank? Did you do other things in law school that distinguished you from your peers (e.g., EIC of law review, best oralist or brief in moot court, etc.)?

Did you attend on a scholarship? If so, what percentage of your tuition was covered? Did it seem that many of your peers were also on scholarships? What were the stipulations, roughly, for maintaining the scholarship from year to year?

What's the size of the city or town in which the TTT is located? Is it located in a primary legal market? Smaller market? Coastal or flyover?

What kind of legal market are you working in? Large? Small? Coastal? Flyover? Is your job located in the same region as your school?

What kind of work are you doing? Have any people you know from your class formed their own firms together?

Thanks!



1. Graduated no. 5; magna cum laude. Was executive board member of Law review; worked all of 2 L and 3L; interned for a federal judge, and booked 8 classes.

2. Attended on a scholarship; 75% covered. Your GPA could not drop below a 2.75 or you lost your scholarship. We had a C+ curve our first year. No idea how many people were on a scholarship, but I knew a few.

3. large city; not a small legal market. It is not NY, but certainly not small.

4. I turned down private practice (did not want to be a slave) for a Gov't job with a starting salary above 70k. It is not a HUGE salary, but it was a personal choice I was able to make given that I only owed a minimal amount for my education. Job is located in the same region as the law school was (as is the case for the overwhelming majority of the students from my class).

5. I do gov't defense work. I do not know of anyone forming firms together, but I do know some did open solo practices. The school has a program to help people start-up their own practices. This is a small percentage of people, though. Most work for someone else.

Rwong
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Re: Success Coming out of a TTT/TTTT

Postby Rwong » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:03 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Rwong wrote:
kwais wrote:Since you must have known many hard working classmates who had poor outcomes, what do you think separated you from them?



To be honest, most of the hard-working people have a job. My graduating class only had 144 people (so you get to know a lot/most of them). A lot of people had jobs upon graduation (and even before), and most found jobs upon passing the Bar. I really do not know any unemployed people from my graduating class (there must be a few) but I just do not know of them. In fact, a few got Fed. Circuit clerkships, state clerkships, and one or two work in Big Law.

One thing I think always kept me motivated was knowing that I was at a lower-ranked school. I knew (or thought) that finding a job would be A LOT more difficult, so I just went above and beyond in every aspect. I worked 30-35hrs/week all of my 2L and 3L year (while going to school full time); I also worked full-time every summer because I knew the place I was working at was the safest bet in terms of employment, so I wanted to impress them and make connections. I interned for a federal judge, was in the executive board of law review, volunteered for stuff I really did not want to attend, and obsessed over my grades. I pretty much was miserable for three years, but I can tell you that people who did not appear to be nearly as miserable still were able to find jobs.

What is your schools LST score


I do not know what you are asking. What's the 75 percentile LSAT score? Is that what you are asking?

Rwong
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Re: Success Coming out of a TTT/TTTT

Postby Rwong » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:07 pm

Ti Malice wrote:A couple of others:

Is the school located in the region where you grew up, attended college, or worked prior to attending law school? Did most of your classmates have ties to the area?

How many years out of undergrad were you when you entered law school? What did you study in undergrad? If you worked before law school, what kind of work did you do?

Thanks again!



I did not grow up in the U.S. Moved here senior year of high school. I did work in the region before but not very sophisticated jobs. Just regular jobs college students take on to pay their bills. I was a reporter for 2 years, but did not really make any connections in the field of law. A significant percentage of the students were born and raised in the area, but a lot of them came from low-income families and did not have family in the field.

I took a year off between undergrad and law school. Nonetheless, I was the third youngest person in my graduating class (or so people kept saying) because I graduated college at 20.

Rwong
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Re: Success Coming out of a TTT/TTTT

Postby Rwong » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:11 pm

timmyd wrote:I just transferred from a TTT. It remains to be seen if it was a good decision because I will be in substantially more debt. What TTT? They are not all created equally. Some TTT are better in terms of employment than TTs because of their market. You mentioned you were on law review. How are the people that were not on law review doing? I just left because I was tired of getting passed over for jobs because employers just trusted kids more that came from x TT school or Y low tier 1. I ended up at the University of Texas School of Law but like I said, it remains to be seen if it will pay dividends.



People who were not on law review are doing fine. There were only 20 people on law review from my class (or 21 maybe). A guy who was not on law review (and was an evening student) got a clerkship at the state appellate level, and at the 11th circuit lines up before graduation.... Three people (none of which were LR) got the Presidential Management Fellowship and are now working for Fed. agencies as lawyers. Many others are working for small or mid-sized firms in the 60-80k range.

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Scotusnerd
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Re: Success Coming out of a TTT/TTTT

Postby Scotusnerd » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:42 pm

Thanks for answering questions and congrats on the job. It sounds like you're very happy where you are. I hope I get as lucky as you.

What's the biggest piece of advice you'd want to give to students at a TTTT/TTT? Any suggestions for how to play the game that differ from the normal TLS ethos?

Edit: I'm actually a 2L at a TTT law school, but I wanted to ask questions anyway. :D

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Nova
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Re: Success Coming out of a TTT/TTTT

Postby Nova » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:47 pm

Rwong wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Rwong wrote:
kwais wrote:Since you must have known many hard working classmates who had poor outcomes, what do you think separated you from them?



To be honest, most of the hard-working people have a job. My graduating class only had 144 people (so you get to know a lot/most of them). A lot of people had jobs upon graduation (and even before), and most found jobs upon passing the Bar. I really do not know any unemployed people from my graduating class (there must be a few) but I just do not know of them. In fact, a few got Fed. Circuit clerkships, state clerkships, and one or two work in Big Law.

One thing I think always kept me motivated was knowing that I was at a lower-ranked school. I knew (or thought) that finding a job would be A LOT more difficult, so I just went above and beyond in every aspect. I worked 30-35hrs/week all of my 2L and 3L year (while going to school full time); I also worked full-time every summer because I knew the place I was working at was the safest bet in terms of employment, so I wanted to impress them and make connections. I interned for a federal judge, was in the executive board of law review, volunteered for stuff I really did not want to attend, and obsessed over my grades. I pretty much was miserable for three years, but I can tell you that people who did not appear to be nearly as miserable still were able to find jobs.

What is your schools LST score


I do not know what you are asking. What's the 75 percentile LSAT score? Is that what you are asking?


Law school transparency score. You could give a narrow range if you don't want to out your school.

Rwong
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Re: Success Coming out of a TTT/TTTT

Postby Rwong » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:54 pm

I have never heard of LST, so let me look it up. :)

Rwong
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Re: Success Coming out of a TTT/TTTT

Postby Rwong » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:04 pm

Rwong wrote:I have never heard of LST, so let me look it up. :)



It is all green for the required disclosures....I did not spend much time analyzing this LST thing (clearly), but it seems to be reporting my school as the fourth highest score in the region, and states that 86.6 percent of my class is employed.

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Sinatra
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Re: Success Coming out of a TTT/TTTT

Postby Sinatra » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:14 pm

Rwong wrote:
Rwong wrote:I have never heard of LST, so let me look it up. :)



It is all green for the required disclosures....I did not spend much time analyzing this LST thing (clearly), but it seems to be reporting my school as the fourth highest score in the region, and states that 86.6 percent of my class is employed.

What percentage is employed in full time, JD required positions?

Rwong
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Re: Success Coming out of a TTT/TTTT

Postby Rwong » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:16 pm

Sinatra wrote:
Rwong wrote:
Rwong wrote:I have never heard of LST, so let me look it up. :)



It is all green for the required disclosures....I did not spend much time analyzing this LST thing (clearly), but it seems to be reporting my school as the fourth highest score in the region, and states that 86.6 percent of my class is employed.

What percentage is employed in full time, JD required positions?


69 percent; 17 percent in J.D-advantage jobs.

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t-14orbust
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Re: Success Coming out of a TTT/TTTT

Postby t-14orbust » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:18 pm

Rwong wrote:
Sinatra wrote:
Rwong wrote:
Rwong wrote:I have never heard of LST, so let me look it up. :)



It is all green for the required disclosures....I did not spend much time analyzing this LST thing (clearly), but it seems to be reporting my school as the fourth highest score in the region, and states that 86.6 percent of my class is employed.

What percentage is employed in full time, JD required positions?


69 percent; 17 percent in J.D-advantage jobs.


that's not bad for a TTT

Rwong
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Re: Success Coming out of a TTT/TTTT

Postby Rwong » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:22 pm

[quote="t-14orbust"]


Yeah, I do not think it is bad, and literally every single one of my law-school friends has a law job. I do not know anyone who is struggling.

rad lulz
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Re: Success Coming out of a TTT/TTTT

Postby rad lulz » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:23 pm

That's actually pretty good

Some "T1" schools can barely muster 50%

Rwong
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Re: Success Coming out of a TTT/TTTT

Postby Rwong » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:26 pm

rad lulz wrote:That's actually pretty good

Some "T1" schools can barely muster 50%



My experience at a TTT (it was a TTTT my first year) was very positive. I just felt everyone was so willing to help you get a job. The Dean had an open-door policy and would call people right in front of you. At one point, those of us who had more than an offer were recommending other classmates to take the job we were declining. There is always going to be the stereotypical law school idiot, but overall it was a very positive experience.

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Snowboarder1588
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Re: Success Coming out of a TTT/TTTT

Postby Snowboarder1588 » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:27 pm

I'm about to start searching school by school...my curiosity is gonna kill me...just tell us where you went; your secret is safe with us :)

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malleus discentium
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Re: Success Coming out of a TTT/TTTT

Postby malleus discentium » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:30 pm

Rwong wrote:69 percent; 17 percent in J.D-advantage jobs.



There are only nineteen schools with an employment score that high and none can be described as a TTT: http://www.lstscorereports.com/?r=other.
Last edited by malleus discentium on Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rwong
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Re: Success Coming out of a TTT/TTTT

Postby Rwong » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:33 pm

Snowboarder1588 wrote:I'm about to start searching school by school...my curiosity is gonna kill me...just tell us where you went; your secret is safe with us :)



;). The point to be made is that a TTTT/TTT can be the right choice for you. As I said, though, I was pretty miserable for three years AND I got married two weeks before law school, so I had to deal with a new marriage (which survived law school, I must add), plus the stress of law school, plus working... Sometimes I just wanted to hide and cry lol. I turned down a T1 to go to this TTTT, and now I can be loan-free in three years. If you do make the decision to go to a lower-ranked school, please work!!! I firmly believe working will be the number 1 factor in you getting a job.

Rwong
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Re: Success Coming out of a TTT/TTTT

Postby Rwong » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:35 pm

malleus discentium wrote:
Rwong wrote:69 percent; 17 percent in J.D-advantage jobs.



There are only nineteen schools with an employment score that high and none can be described as any number of T's: http://www.lstscorereports.com/?r=other.



Employment score and the percentage of people employed are two different things. I am not looking at the wrong number. :)

I said 86 percent were employed; not that that employment score was 86. Again, they are two different things.




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