Top Law Schools

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I'm not sure this question makes so much sense anymore given how things have changed since 2008 and what we know about employment figures at various schools. Employment outcomes from Penn appear to be much better than those from Michigan at this point, so I think I'd react differently to full ride scholarships at either of the two.

That said, I made a choice as if outcomes were uniform within the tiers you've set up, and decided on CCN at half cost. Unless you know you want to clerk or be a professor, the employment opportunities for grads are very similar between HYS and CCN, but they drop off more significantly after that. I'd rather be a Columbia grad with a good job and $125k in savings to invest than a Harvard grad with a good job and $0, or an MVP grad with a higher chance of not having a good job with $250k in savings. While the extra $125k in savings would be nice, it's not worth the relatively strong chance that your career gets off on the wrong foot and you never recover.

It's kind of a toss up between YSH and fully scholly at CCN. Only a half scholly? YSH every time.

ArtistOfManliness wrote:It's kind of a toss up between YSH and fully scholly at CCN. Only a half scholly? YSH every time.

I think it generally falls in between full and half because most get at least some aid from YSH when making these decisions.

Good point sinfiery, but that just makes the YSH choice more appealing!

And by hypothetical... Are you unsure of your acceptances or unsure or whether or not you're going to kill your grandmother?

If your grandmother/grandfather passes away and leaves you $250K...

Start a business or at least invest the money in prime real estate or low risk but consistent yield funds. Dont waste the money on fucking law school lol

Penn

sinfiery wrote:

ArtistOfManliness wrote:It's kind of a toss up between YSH and fully scholly at CCN. Only a half scholly? YSH every time.

I think it generally falls in between full and half because most get at least some aid from YSH when making these decisions.

not if you have 1/4 mil in the bank

obviously goal dependent. I actually think ccn is the worst option unless you lump P with it (which from an outcome perspective it should be). Either you want some weird prestigious gig that you can only get from hys, or you want biglaw, which you have a better shot at from Penn than you do from 2 of the 3 of CCN, at a 50%, plus interest, discount...on the other hand, excluding P, m and v would change my choice significantly.

jbagelboy wrote: invest the money in prime real estate

BOOMER ALERT

Clearly wrote:obviously goal dependent. I actually think ccn is the worst option unless you lump P with it (which from an outcome perspective it should be). Either you want some weird prestigious gig that you can only get from hys, or you want biglaw, which you have a better shot at from Penn than you do from 2 of the 3 of CCN, at a 50%, plus interest, discount...on the other hand, excluding P, m and v would change my choice significantly.

Penn kids dont have a "better shot" at biglaw than Chicago or Columbia students. I'd say equal. NLJ250 actuals are a poor judge of potential, look at EIP/OCI success rate and you'll see which candidates can get their 2L SAs when they try for them (%85-90, Penn is no higher).

Does that $250K factor as income? If not, you can still get financial aid at HYS. Win-win!

jbagelboy wrote:

Clearly wrote:obviously goal dependent. I actually think ccn is the worst option unless you lump P with it (which from an outcome perspective it should be). Either you want some weird prestigious gig that you can only get from hys, or you want biglaw, which you have a better shot at from Penn than you do from 2 of the 3 of CCN, at a 50%, plus interest, discount...on the other hand, excluding P, m and v would change my choice significantly.

Penn kids dont have a "better shot" at biglaw than Chicago or Columbia students. I'd say equal. NLJ250 actuals are a poor judge of potential, look at EIP/OCI success rate and you'll see which candidates can get their 2L SAs when they try for them (%85-90, Penn is no higher).

You got the gist of what I was saying, a comparable shot at biglaw would have been more accurate. Still stand by my hypo that I'd take Penn full over others.

jbagelboy wrote:

Clearly wrote:obviously goal dependent. I actually think ccn is the worst option unless you lump P with it (which from an outcome perspective it should be). Either you want some weird prestigious gig that you can only get from hys, or you want biglaw, which you have a better shot at from Penn than you do from 2 of the 3 of CCN, at a 50%, plus interest, discount...on the other hand, excluding P, m and v would change my choice significantly.

Penn kids dont have a "better shot" at biglaw than Chicago or Columbia students. I'd say equal. NLJ250 actuals are a poor judge of potential, look at EIP/OCI success rate and you'll see which candidates can get their 2L SAs when they try for them (%85-90, Penn is no higher).

This interests me greatly. Is there any way to find these for the other top schools?

Also, yeah, Penn with a full ride > H/S (probably = to Y). Assuming you want Biglaw. If you don't, HYS probably beats MVP... maybe.

Non-prestigious, non-biglaw/DC without ties: MVP

Any biglaw/Philly without ties: P

V10 biglaw/Chicago without ties: CCN

Prestigious non-biglaw/Boston/Cali/DC without ties: HYS

I'd take a full ride at Berkeley Law, in a heartbeat.

jselson wrote:Non-prestigious, non-biglaw/DC without ties: MVP

Any biglaw/Philly without ties: P

V10 biglaw/Chicago without ties: CCN

Prestigious non-biglaw/Boston/Cali/DC without ties: HYS

this

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Regulus wrote:Here are a couple of charts that I've made in my free time that might prove slightly useful (I didn't make the one for 2011; that was made by someone else here on TLS):

Biglaw + AIII
Class of 2012 Employment Data
Class of 2011 Employment Data

Based on their employment statistics these past couple of years, I would put UMichigan closer to NU and GULC as far as outcomes go instead of Virginia and Berkeley.

Also, as was previously mentioned, I think that UPenn has the "highest" biglaw rate just because kids at HYSCCN are self-selecting out into other forms of employment, and not because UPenn actually has better biglaw placement power than these other schools.

Why is UMich closer to NU then VB?

Also, based on % of kids who got biglaw, would someone be better off going to Cornell or NU if they want big law in NYC/Chicago compared to some of MVD, assuming full ride at all 5 schools?

paglababa wrote:

Regulus wrote:Here are a couple of charts that I've made in my free time that might prove slightly useful (I didn't make the one for 2011; that was made by someone else here on TLS):

Biglaw + AIII
Class of 2012 Employment Data
Class of 2011 Employment Data

Based on their employment statistics these past couple of years, I would put UMichigan closer to NU and GULC as far as outcomes go instead of Virginia and Berkeley.

Also, as was previously mentioned, I think that UPenn has the "highest" biglaw rate just because kids at HYSCCN are self-selecting out into other forms of employment, and not because UPenn actually has better biglaw placement power than these other schools.

Why is UMich closer to NU then VB?

Also, based on % of kids who got biglaw, would someone be better off going to Cornell or NU if they want big law in NYC/Chicago compared to some of MVD, assuming full ride at all 5 schools?

If Duke and Michigan "full ride" are the named scholarships (Mordecai ect), Id take those over Deans at Cornell or $50K at NU/UVA, both for the name recognition and the perks.

Regulus wrote:Here are a couple of charts that I've made in my free time that might prove slightly useful (I didn't make the one for 2011; that was made by someone else here on TLS):

Biglaw + AIII
Class of 2012 Employment Data
Class of 2011 Employment Data

Based on their employment statistics these past couple of years, I would put UMichigan closer to NU and GULC as far as outcomes go instead of Virginia and Berkeley.

Also, as was previously mentioned, I think that UPenn has the "highest" biglaw rate just because kids at HYSCCN are self-selecting out into other forms of employment, and not because UPenn actually has better biglaw placement power than these other schools.

NU and GULC don't belong in the same sentence for biglaw outcomes, WTF

IAFG wrote:

Regulus wrote:Here are a couple of charts that I've made in my free time that might prove slightly useful (I didn't make the one for 2011; that was made by someone else here on TLS):

Biglaw + AIII
Class of 2012 Employment Data
Class of 2011 Employment Data

Based on their employment statistics these past couple of years, I would put UMichigan closer to NU and GULC as far as outcomes go instead of Virginia and Berkeley.

Also, as was previously mentioned, I think that UPenn has the "highest" biglaw rate just because kids at HYSCCN are self-selecting out into other forms of employment, and not because UPenn actually has better biglaw placement power than these other schools.

NU and GULC don't belong in the same sentence for biglaw outcomes, WTF

Shhhh. It's okay. It's okay.

jbagelboy wrote:

paglababa wrote:

Regulus wrote:Here are a couple of charts that I've made in my free time that might prove slightly useful (I didn't make the one for 2011; that was made by someone else here on TLS):

Biglaw + AIII
Class of 2012 Employment Data
Class of 2011 Employment Data

Based on their employment statistics these past couple of years, I would put UMichigan closer to NU and GULC as far as outcomes go instead of Virginia and Berkeley.

Also, as was previously mentioned, I think that UPenn has the "highest" biglaw rate just because kids at HYSCCN are self-selecting out into other forms of employment, and not because UPenn actually has better biglaw placement power than these other schools.

Why is UMich closer to NU then VB?

Also, based on % of kids who got biglaw, would someone be better off going to Cornell or NU if they want big law in NYC/Chicago compared to some of MVD, assuming full ride at all 5 schools?

If Duke and Michigan "full ride" are the named scholarships (Mordecai ect), Id take those over Deans at Cornell or $50K at NU/UVA, both for the name recognition and the perks.

Hadn't thought about dat prestige.
Chicago just seems like it would be a better place to live then NC or Ann Arbor, and has that Chicago market tie if you previously only had ties from the north east. But anyway these are problems I'd like to have. Darrow/Mordecai just seem so much harder to obtain though than 50k at NU.

That graph is incredibly useful, and I thank whoever put it together, but at NU, "business/industry" does not necessarily mean "Starbucks" or even "couldn't get biglaw." We have 1) a lot of JD-MBAs who choose MBA type jobs and 2) people with WE who leverage that with their JD to do something other than law.