T 14 or bust- accurate?

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Samara
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby Samara » Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:23 pm

curious66 wrote:I did say "to me" that makes for a better experience. I disagree you must be totally set on a target market -- the entire appeal of T14 vs. a regional school is national reach from the T14. I think it is wiseto have a preference and plan target market.. but things change (people find significant others etc).. over the course of 3 years. That's the point

The thing is, you don't get three years to figure it out, you get one and then OCI hits. And you're probably going to get grilled on location, so if you're bouncing all around, it's going to look bad. It's possible to be geographically flexible, but your classmates who know what they want to do and where they want to do it are going to have an advantage on you. The national reach of a T14 doesn't mean every market is open to every student, nor does it mean that every T14 is equally advantaged for each market.

curious66
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby curious66 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:37 pm

Mal Reynolds wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:There also seems to be the idea that top 10% can essentially write their own ticket in DC, something which I could never imagine to be true for Duke grads.


Huh? You need to look at the T-14 (Duke and GULC amongst others) placement numbers and really revisit your thinking.

curious66
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby curious66 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:39 pm

Samara wrote:
curious66 wrote:I did say "to me" that makes for a better experience. I disagree you must be totally set on a target market -- the entire appeal of T14 vs. a regional school is national reach from the T14. I think it is wiseto have a preference and plan target market.. but things change (people find significant others etc).. over the course of 3 years. That's the point

The thing is, you don't get three years to figure it out, you get one and then OCI hits. And you're probably going to get grilled on location, so if you're bouncing all around, it's going to look bad. It's possible to be geographically flexible, but your classmates who know what they want to do and where they want to do it are going to have an advantage on you. The national reach of a T14 doesn't mean every market is open to every student, nor does it mean that every T14 is equally advantaged for each market.


True.. but that is assuming you walk into school with no plan whatsoever so you appear like you are bouncing around and look idiotic while interviewing. I hope for those in that boat, they decided not to do law school period :).

BigZuck
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby BigZuck » Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:41 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:There also seems to be the idea that top 10% can essentially write their own ticket in DC, something which I could never imagine to be true for Duke grads.


wat

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jkpolk
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby jkpolk » Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:13 pm

BigZuck wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:There also seems to be the idea that top 10% can essentially write their own ticket in DC, something which I could never imagine to be true for Duke grads.


wat

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rickgrimes69
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby rickgrimes69 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:50 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:There also seems to be the idea that top 10% can essentially write their own ticket in DC, something which I could never imagine to be true for Duke grads.


wat

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:14 pm

curious66 wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:There also seems to be the idea that top 10% can essentially write their own ticket in DC, something which I could never imagine to be true for Duke grads.


Huh? You need to look at the T-14 (Duke and GULC amongst others) placement numbers and really revisit your thinking.


I mean, I'm not basing that off placement statistics of any kind (although to my knowledge there are no publicly available statistics that would measure something like that), I'm basing that notion purely off conversations I've had with people who work in DC. So for a word of caution, I cannot guarantee that it's true.

The conversations were with a mix of associates and (mostly older) partners, so I don't think there's a strong age/information bias either way, although I suppose it's possible that the partners are too far removed to be aware of how the hiring works, while the associates are simultaneously too far in the dark to be able to speak with certitude about the process, and it should be noted that nobody I spoke with was directly involved in hiring. And though the sample size isn't sufficient for me to say it's definitely the case (anecdotes aren't data, and typical cautions of random variation apply), it is also well more than the outlier opinion of one person. A non-negligible percentage of them also work at well-regarded firms, so it isn't like anyone is saying that from a back-office trash heap where they jump at any T14 grad with decent grades, although I guess none of them came right out and said "Oh yeah, but it's not like we're going a total weirdo just because he has good grades" or any such statement accounting for interviewing, fit, and all that jazz.

If the notion expressed seems ridiculous/illogical on its face, then I suggest taking it with a grain of salt, or better yet as merely one voice in a sea of other expressed stories/data on the fate of both GULC and Duke grads. I just wanted to relay the point that struck me throughout all those conversations: GULC is discussed in surprisingly positive terms by people who work in DC Biglaw. When I asked what schools they look upon most favorably, Harvard and Yale always come first, but then you would be surprised how quickly GULC is mentioned. It's not as though it's a beaming positive review for every school (although the basic notion in DC seems to be "T14" and "else"), because some other T14 schools are discussed much less favorably--GULC is discussed in something of a uniquely positive way. I'm sure the GULC grads of that group are not going to shit on their school, but the non-GULC grads don't appear to praise it any less.

I came away concluding this: GULC has not suffered anything approximating a reputational hit in DC. It just merely appears to be a difficult time right now for anyone looking to work in DC, as a large percentage of GULC students are. No, the school's placement isn't going to look good if it doesn't reduce class size while the DC market is growing so slowly, but I would recommend the appropriate level of caution when placing all that stock in one year's data when we don't know if 2012 is a representative year of what the DC market might look like in five years. It's possible (maybe even probable) that none of these people/firms give a fuck about a below-median GULC grad, as they'd all only hire from the Top [X] percentage anyway. But the notion seemed to be that X Percent would do just fine.

Mal Reynolds
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby Mal Reynolds » Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:19 pm

So you've talked to a few people and are making shitty conclusions from those unrepresentative samples. I'd say that up front next time.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:44 pm

Mal Reynolds wrote:So you've talked to a few people and are making shitty conclusions from those unrepresentative samples. I'd say that up front next time.


I...did? I said what I understood to be the consensus opinion based on my conversations, although perhaps I could have phrased it to more clearly indicate that such conversations don't make it gospel truth. And then I made an inference that the same wasn't true for Duke, based on a lack of evidence to suggest it was the case, from either in-person on Internet sources. And yes, I certainly could have been more clear about saying that I don't know any more about how the top 10% at Duke fares than anyone else.

curious66
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby curious66 » Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:15 am

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:So you've talked to a few people and are making shitty conclusions from those unrepresentative samples. I'd say that up front next time.


I...did? I said what I understood to be the consensus opinion based on my conversations, although perhaps I could have phrased it to more clearly indicate that such conversations don't make it gospel truth. And then I made an inference that the same wasn't true for Duke, based on a lack of evidence to suggest it was the case, from either in-person on Internet sources. And yes, I certainly could have been more clear about saying that I don't know any more about how the top 10% at Duke fares than anyone else.


Ok.. chill. Next time do the research.. one of the things I learned in this admissions cycle is that "do not go by random advice or comments from well intentioned people". If you are going to go to Law school and pay this huge amount of $, the only thing that should matter is getting a job that you want out of it (PI, Biglaw whatever).. Read up, do the research, visit after you have been admitted, negotiate your scholarships and then decide. Good luck to you !

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jbagelboy
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:22 am

curious66 wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:So you've talked to a few people and are making shitty conclusions from those unrepresentative samples. I'd say that up front next time.


I...did? I said what I understood to be the consensus opinion based on my conversations, although perhaps I could have phrased it to more clearly indicate that such conversations don't make it gospel truth. And then I made an inference that the same wasn't true for Duke, based on a lack of evidence to suggest it was the case, from either in-person on Internet sources. And yes, I certainly could have been more clear about saying that I don't know any more about how the top 10% at Duke fares than anyone else.


Ok.. chill. Next time do the research.. one of the things I learned in this admissions cycle is that "do not go by random advice or comments from well intentioned people". If you are going to go to Law school and pay this huge amount of $, the only thing that should matter is getting a job that you want out of it (PI, Biglaw whatever).. Read up, do the research, visit after you have been admitted, negotiate your scholarships and then decide. Good luck to you !


Lol watch who you're giving advice to my friend. Mono is attending CLS C/O 2016

curious66
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby curious66 » Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:23 am

jbagelboy wrote:
curious66 wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:So you've talked to a few people and are making shitty conclusions from those unrepresentative samples. I'd say that up front next time.


I...did? I said what I understood to be the consensus opinion based on my conversations, although perhaps I could have phrased it to more clearly indicate that such conversations don't make it gospel truth. And then I made an inference that the same wasn't true for Duke, based on a lack of evidence to suggest it was the case, from either in-person on Internet sources. And yes, I certainly could have been more clear about saying that I don't know any more about how the top 10% at Duke fares than anyone else.


Ok.. chill. Next time do the research.. one of the things I learned in this admissions cycle is that "do not go by random advice or comments from well intentioned people". If you are going to go to Law school and pay this huge amount of $, the only thing that should matter is getting a job that you want out of it (PI, Biglaw whatever).. Read up, do the research, visit after you have been admitted, negotiate your scholarships and then decide. Good luck to you !


Lol watch who you're giving advice to my friend. Mono is attending CLS C/O 2016


WOW.. dumbfounded. Good for him!

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Rlabo
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby Rlabo » Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:56 pm

It really is a shame about GULC's class size as they would be a much higher regarded school within the law sphere (especially around here) if they cut they're class size a few hundred. If GULC's class size was half or even two thirds of its current state I could see it possibly pushing into t6 territory. Its also not just there large class size, but the ridiculous amount of transfers they let in. Keeping everything else equal and just cutting class size would do wonders for GULC. That being said, GULC is still an impressive school and gets knocked around on this site a bit too much imo.

froglee
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby froglee » Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:56 am

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
curious66 wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:There also seems to be the idea that top 10% can essentially write their own ticket in DC, something which I could never imagine to be true for Duke grads.


Huh? You need to look at the T-14 (Duke and GULC amongst others) placement numbers and really revisit your thinking.


I mean, I'm not basing that off placement statistics of any kind (although to my knowledge there are no publicly available statistics that would measure something like that), I'm basing that notion purely off conversations I've had with people who work in DC. So for a word of caution, I cannot guarantee that it's true.

The conversations were with a mix of associates and (mostly older) partners, so I don't think there's a strong age/information bias either way, although I suppose it's possible that the partners are too far removed to be aware of how the hiring works, while the associates are simultaneously too far in the dark to be able to speak with certitude about the process, and it should be noted that nobody I spoke with was directly involved in hiring. And though the sample size isn't sufficient for me to say it's definitely the case (anecdotes aren't data, and typical cautions of random variation apply), it is also well more than the outlier opinion of one person. A non-negligible percentage of them also work at well-regarded firms, so it isn't like anyone is saying that from a back-office trash heap where they jump at any T14 grad with decent grades, although I guess none of them came right out and said "Oh yeah, but it's not like we're going a total weirdo just because he has good grades" or any such statement accounting for interviewing, fit, and all that jazz.

If the notion expressed seems ridiculous/illogical on its face, then I suggest taking it with a grain of salt, or better yet as merely one voice in a sea of other expressed stories/data on the fate of both GULC and Duke grads. I just wanted to relay the point that struck me throughout all those conversations: GULC is discussed in surprisingly positive terms by people who work in DC Biglaw. When I asked what schools they look upon most favorably, Harvard and Yale always come first, but then you would be surprised how quickly GULC is mentioned. It's not as though it's a beaming positive review for every school (although the basic notion in DC seems to be "T14" and "else"), because some other T14 schools are discussed much less favorably--GULC is discussed in something of a uniquely positive way. I'm sure the GULC grads of that group are not going to shit on their school, but the non-GULC grads don't appear to praise it any less.

I came away concluding this: GULC has not suffered anything approximating a reputational hit in DC. It just merely appears to be a difficult time right now for anyone looking to work in DC, as a large percentage of GULC students are. No, the school's placement isn't going to look good if it doesn't reduce class size while the DC market is growing so slowly, but I would recommend the appropriate level of caution when placing all that stock in one year's data when we don't know if 2012 is a representative year of what the DC market might look like in five years. It's possible (maybe even probable) that none of these people/firms give a fuck about a below-median GULC grad, as they'd all only hire from the Top [X] percentage anyway. But the notion seemed to be that X Percent would do just fine.


You may indeed talk to these people you mentioned above. But wishful thinking simply screwed your ability to analyze those informations objectively. You may think that you have done lot of research on GULC's employment situation. But I think your research and analysis are just as superficial as most other kids who are dieing to go to law schools.

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:But the notion seemed to be that X Percent would do just fine.


You know that you will have similar academic undergraduate background(GPAs, LSATs) and intelligene with your classmates. What makes you think will be in that X percent and what makes you think you won't be that below median portion that no employers will give shit about.

Don't tell me things like "I will work my ass off in law school blah blah". Yea, sure, I bet your classmates aren't thinking the same thing.

hashashin
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby hashashin » Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:00 am

froglee wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
curious66 wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:There also seems to be the idea that top 10% can essentially write their own ticket in DC, something which I could never imagine to be true for Duke grads.


Huh? You need to look at the T-14 (Duke and GULC amongst others) placement numbers and really revisit your thinking.


I mean, I'm not basing that off placement statistics of any kind (although to my knowledge there are no publicly available statistics that would measure something like that), I'm basing that notion purely off conversations I've had with people who work in DC. So for a word of caution, I cannot guarantee that it's true.

The conversations were with a mix of associates and (mostly older) partners, so I don't think there's a strong age/information bias either way, although I suppose it's possible that the partners are too far removed to be aware of how the hiring works, while the associates are simultaneously too far in the dark to be able to speak with certitude about the process, and it should be noted that nobody I spoke with was directly involved in hiring. And though the sample size isn't sufficient for me to say it's definitely the case (anecdotes aren't data, and typical cautions of random variation apply), it is also well more than the outlier opinion of one person. A non-negligible percentage of them also work at well-regarded firms, so it isn't like anyone is saying that from a back-office trash heap where they jump at any T14 grad with decent grades, although I guess none of them came right out and said "Oh yeah, but it's not like we're going a total weirdo just because he has good grades" or any such statement accounting for interviewing, fit, and all that jazz.

If the notion expressed seems ridiculous/illogical on its face, then I suggest taking it with a grain of salt, or better yet as merely one voice in a sea of other expressed stories/data on the fate of both GULC and Duke grads. I just wanted to relay the point that struck me throughout all those conversations: GULC is discussed in surprisingly positive terms by people who work in DC Biglaw. When I asked what schools they look upon most favorably, Harvard and Yale always come first, but then you would be surprised how quickly GULC is mentioned. It's not as though it's a beaming positive review for every school (although the basic notion in DC seems to be "T14" and "else"), because some other T14 schools are discussed much less favorably--GULC is discussed in something of a uniquely positive way. I'm sure the GULC grads of that group are not going to shit on their school, but the non-GULC grads don't appear to praise it any less.

I came away concluding this: GULC has not suffered anything approximating a reputational hit in DC. It just merely appears to be a difficult time right now for anyone looking to work in DC, as a large percentage of GULC students are. No, the school's placement isn't going to look good if it doesn't reduce class size while the DC market is growing so slowly, but I would recommend the appropriate level of caution when placing all that stock in one year's data when we don't know if 2012 is a representative year of what the DC market might look like in five years. It's possible (maybe even probable) that none of these people/firms give a fuck about a below-median GULC grad, as they'd all only hire from the Top [X] percentage anyway. But the notion seemed to be that X Percent would do just fine.


You may indeed talk to these people you mentioned above. But wishful thinking simply screwed your ability to analyze those informations objectively. You may think that you have done lot of research on GULC's employment situation. But I think your research and analysis are just as superficial as most other kids who are dieing to go to law schools.

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:But the notion seemed to be that X Percent would do just fine.


You know that you will have similar academic undergraduate background(GPAs, LSATs) and intelligene with your classmates. What makes you think will be in that X percent and what makes you think you won't be that below median portion that no employers will give shit about.

Don't tell me things like "I will work my ass off in law school blah blah". Yea, sure, I bet your classmates aren't thinking the same thing.


froglee, are you a retarded spambot?

Real Madrid
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby Real Madrid » Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:16 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:So you've talked to a few people and are making shitty conclusions from those unrepresentative samples. I'd say that up front next time.


I...did? I said what I understood to be the consensus opinion based on my conversations, although perhaps I could have phrased it to more clearly indicate that such conversations don't make it gospel truth. And then I made an inference that the same wasn't true for Duke, based on a lack of evidence to suggest it was the case, from either in-person on Internet sources. And yes, I certainly could have been more clear about saying that I don't know any more about how the top 10% at Duke fares than anyone else.


Ignore Mal Reynolds. He has ass burgers.

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jbagelboy
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:12 pm

Go to columbia or dont go

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:24 pm

jbagelboy wrote:Go to columbia or dont go


This is the fucking credited response.

Hutz_and_Goodman
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:40 pm

I think be able to get into the T14 or bust (either go t14 or full ride at lower school)

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Ramius
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby Ramius » Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:42 pm

Why do these threads always devolve into an irrelevant discussion of the relative value of a T6, T10, T13, T14 degree? Employment prospects are what matters in picking a professional school for sure, but what is this accomplishing? Why can't we assume that tiers do exist in law school rankings and placement and so long as people attending these institutions are realistic about their relative prospects, no one is being harmed? I know full transparency is still the goal and largely a pipe dream, but can't we assume that people on TLS have the same general understanding of the legal market and the relative placement power of various schools?

It just seems like dogs chasing their proverbial tail when we discuss the relative worth of Duke vs. GULC or whatever comparison you're trying to make. LST is the best statistical data we have, so let that do the talking until we have a better metric of the placement power of a JD.

utlaw2007
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby utlaw2007 » Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:45 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:
Samara wrote:
LSATSCORES2012 wrote:TLS really operates in extremes, and the word "worthless" is one of those extremes. Those schools aren't worthless, but they are definitely worth less.

I really do think that it's T13, though, not T14, in terms of employment. This spreadsheet that kappycaft1 made is really illustrative.

Please stop peddling this T13 nonsense. GULC is in a tough spot right now because DC is the market hardest hit by the downturn. That doesn't suddenly mean its in a different tier.

When you factor in government, PI, and self-selection into the toughest market in the country, it gets a lot closer to the other T14 schools. Even without that, there is a clear difference between GULC and UT/Vandy/UCLA/USC.


GULC is in a tough spot because they have a stupidly large class size focusing on a small and insanely competitive market. They would do fine if they cut their class in half, but until that happens, their numbers have and will continue to suffer.


This.

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Yukos
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby Yukos » Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:05 pm

I don't go to GULC but I have a lot of friends there so I think I can add a bit to the discussion.

1) GULC is too big. No one disputes this. With the lottery system, it can be very hard to get matched up with the firms you're qualified for (though there's a shadow OCI that can help). Firms in general don't have enough SA spots for GULC students considering the size of this school. This is one area where Duke shines -- it's just so small you're not likely to be fighting a lot of people for spots at a given firm.

2) The transfer thing is real. They take HUNDREDS of transfers, and these transfers have a very difficult time getting a job. I'm not sure if that's reflected in the LST numbers but it's not encouraging.

3) Top 10% from GULC is not guaranteed any job in DC, let alone from some super prestigious appellate practice. You're probably in a good place if you focus your energy on mediocre firms, but Mayer Brown, GDC, W&C, Covington, even OMM (DC) are all going to be very difficult.

4) It's not just below-median kids who have trouble finding a job. I have friends of friends who are near the top of the class and struck out or got one offer. I have a friend who was well above median with LR who struck out.

As far as national prestige, quality of faculty (GULC has a top 3 faculty no doubt), etc. etc., GULC is clearly T14. But as far as jobs go, I think it's way scarier than Duke or NU. If there's some way to cut half their class but maintain their faculty I hope they do it, because it has the potential to be one of the best. Right now, it's too big in too difficult of a market without enough prestige. Go at your own risk.




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