T 14 or bust- accurate?

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Redfactor
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby Redfactor » Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:03 am

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Last edited by Redfactor on Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ti Malice
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby Ti Malice » Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:30 am

Samara wrote:
LSATSCORES2012 wrote:TLS really operates in extremes, and the word "worthless" is one of those extremes. Those schools aren't worthless, but they are definitely worth less.

I really do think that it's T13, though, not T14, in terms of employment. This spreadsheet that kappycaft1 made is really illustrative.

Please stop peddling this T13 nonsense. GULC is in a tough spot right now because DC is the market hardest hit by the downturn. That doesn't suddenly mean its in a different tier.

When you factor in government, PI, and self-selection into the toughest market in the country, it gets a lot closer to the other T14 schools. Even without that, there is a clear difference between GULC and UT/Vandy/UCLA/USC.


Yes, there is still a clear difference between GULC and the next four, but desirable PI and government are barely hiring, so it's hardly a stretch to surmise that a good number of grads in those categories are winding up with something closer to Baltimore Legal Aid and municipal/state government jobs than ACLU and DOJ. Federal clerkships are practically a prerequisite for the most prestigious PI and government positions; you would expect to see more than 3.7% of GULC's graduating class entering federal clerkships if a large percentage of the class were getting the most sought-after PI and government jobs.

Even with all of the mitigating considerations you cite, there's still enough of a difference between GULC and the rest of the lower T14 for there to be some merit presently to drawing a distinction between these schools and GULC -- and doing so doesn't require believing that GULC is on the same level as UT/Vandy/UCLA/USC.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby rickgrimes69 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:40 am

Samara wrote:
LSATSCORES2012 wrote:TLS really operates in extremes, and the word "worthless" is one of those extremes. Those schools aren't worthless, but they are definitely worth less.

I really do think that it's T13, though, not T14, in terms of employment. This spreadsheet that kappycaft1 made is really illustrative.

Please stop peddling this T13 nonsense. GULC is in a tough spot right now because DC is the market hardest hit by the downturn. That doesn't suddenly mean its in a different tier.

When you factor in government, PI, and self-selection into the toughest market in the country, it gets a lot closer to the other T14 schools. Even without that, there is a clear difference between GULC and UT/Vandy/UCLA/USC.


GULC is in a tough spot because they have a stupidly large class size focusing on a small and insanely competitive market. They would do fine if they cut their class in half, but until that happens, their numbers have and will continue to suffer.

Ti Malice
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby Ti Malice » Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:49 am

timmyd wrote:Also, I probably got a little carried away with my comment about Texas employers taking UT over schools like Boalt and Michigan, but I stand by the assertion that as far as Texas is concerned, I would take UT over Gtown/Cornell. You will presumably make connections there to help you land a job over some random guy from Gtown or Cornell (grades being considered equal).


You stand by your assertion based on what? The relevant comparison isn't the UT grad versus "some random guy" from Cornell or GULC. Someone with Texas ties will stand a much better chance at getting Texas BigLaw at median from any T14 than at median from UT.

Also, why are you dumping on Cornell (along with Northwestern in an earlier post)? Just because these schools are ranked 12th/13th by USNWR? Northwestern and Cornell have employment placement that's at least equivalent to the rest of the lower T14, Penn excluded.

BigZuck
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby BigZuck » Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:54 am

timmyd wrote:Also, I probably got a little carried away with my comment about Texas employers taking UT over schools like Boalt and Michigan, but I stand by the assertion that as far as Texas is concerned, I would take UT over Gtown/Cornell. You will presumably make connections there to help you land a job over some random guy from Gtown or Cornell (grades being considered equal).


Are you talking about any old job or are you talking about big law in Texas? Because if I wanted Texas big law and all else was equal I would definitely pick a T14 over UT.

I think you're way over-inflating UT here. And I say that as someone who chose UT over T14 options.

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bjsesq
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby bjsesq » Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:54 am

timmyd wrote:If you want Cali big law...I would say do well at UCLA over Gtown, Northwestern or Cornell.


Most people who wanted Cali biglaw in my class (NU) got it. What are you basing these claims on?

hashashin
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby hashashin » Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:18 am

Ti Malice wrote:
Yes, there is still a clear difference between GULC and the next four, but desirable PI and government are barely hiring, so it's hardly a stretch to surmise that a good number of grads in those categories are winding up with something closer to Baltimore Legal Aid and municipal/state government jobs than ACLU and DOJ. Federal clerkships are practically a prerequisite for the most prestigious PI and government positions; you would expect to see more than 3.7% of GULC's graduating class entering federal clerkships if a large percentage of the class were getting the most sought-after PI and government jobs.

Even with all of the mitigating considerations you cite, there's still enough of a difference between GULC and the rest of the lower T14 for there to be some merit presently to drawing a distinction between these schools and GULC -- and doing so doesn't require believing that GULC is on the same level as UT/Vandy/UCLA/USC.


Not sure about the bolded above, since I'd guess that a substantial portion of GULC's gov placement derives from its part-time class (meaning that those already working in BigGov would be returning to it post-grad). I don't think that ANY T14 that sends 25.6% of its grads (c/o 2012) into public service would send a sizable majority of those graduates into something as TTT as a county attorneyship. Isn't GULC's BigFed placement actually still considered pretty legendary as far as DOJ honors and the like go (by lower T14 standards)? The problem here, obviously, is the difficulty of tracking prestigious PI outcomes in the first place, but I'd give GULC the benefit of the doubt in (a very) narrow majority of the cases. But the hugeness of the PI disparity between GULC and NU/Cornell, for example, makes it difficult to accurately gauge GULC's biglaw placement power versus its traditional peer schools.

While there is obviously a large NLJ250 gap between GULC (and Michigan, too) and DCNV, the SALARY data for the c/o 2012 that GULC hosts on its website (http://www.law.georgetown.edu/careers/o ... ry-6-5.pdf) does indicate that GULC grads are, on average, not doing too much worse than NU grads as far as six-figure private sector salaries go (50.1% of GULC grads TOTAL made >100K in 2012 versus 56% of NU grads, and that difference becomes almost negligible when one considers GULC's ENORMOUS PI rate). However GULC is pulling this off (i.e. Law Firm, six figure JD advantage, or a combination thereof), it seems that the prospects of being financially fucked by GULC are about as low as other lower T14s. This certainly factored into my decision-making while I was weighing GULC against Duke and Cornell this year.

Mal Reynolds
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby Mal Reynolds » Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:16 am

Redfactor wrote:
TemporarySaint wrote:
Redfactor wrote:
walterwhite wrote: But still other threads suggest the really elite, high paying firms only recruit from HYS. Since I'm still thinking about what schools to apply to I just want to make sure I'm not wasting time and money applying to schools considered mediocre by the legal world.

Obviously when you apply to undergrad they tell you to have safety schools and matches but the prevailing wisdom on TLS suggests any law school that is a "safety school" is not worth attending in the first place. Would you say that sentiment is accurate or have I really misinterpreted the forums here?


This is Top Law Schools.

Other schools can very much be a good deal and many times they are the better deal than T-14 at sticker. T-14 allows career options that are just not realistic coming from lower-ranked schools. But, if you're not inclined to do biglaw or you're not looking for a clerkship, then regional schools for cheap can be a prudent decision.

Just understand that you won't be making 160k from lower-ranked school. So don't go to those schools if it requires taking out 6 figure debt.


The problem is regional markets are very, very small. Even a market like Chicago, which is one of the biggest in the country, only hires like 300 SAs a year. If you're a kid from St. Louis, sure you can go somewhere like Wash U, but you've got to keep in mind that even at Wash U you still have to do pretty damn well to get an SA in St. Louis or KC because the classes are so small. On the other hand, take the exact same person, but put them in Northwestern, they've got great access to the New York and Chicago markets just by virtue of where they went to school and they've still got a great shot at the St. Louis market without necessarily needing stellar grades.

There's a trade-off risk given the higher cost, so it's all a personal decision, but the 'just do super regional bro' often ignores just how little hiring is often actually done in those locations.


I don't understand why you're even talking about the number of SAs. If you want do biglaw, then you need to go to a biglaw feeder school. Going to a regional with expectations of biglaw is foolish.

*gasp* I wasn't talking about biglaw jobs. Not everyone drives for one of those. And if you don't then debt load should play a big role in decision making.


MoMettaMonk wrote:0l here. I've always thought that the idea of going to a strong regional isn't necessarily to increase your odds of working big law in whatever market the school is in, but to minimize debt as much as possible while still maintaining an acceptable level of job prospects. Essentially making it unnecessary that you secure the 160k position to pay off your loans since you (ideally) wouldn't have large loans in the first place.

I suppose if your ultimate goal is to do large firm type work and not just to do it for a few years to pay off loans then a lower t14 over a strong regional would be the best idea.



You are correct.


I love how people make themselves feel better by distinguishing that they don't want biglaw. Temporary saint was taking about ANY law. He was talking about the total number of SA spots for any firm-be it mid or shit law. Please tell me, if you're not hired by a law firm from a regional school, what would you be doing for a job?

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skers
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby skers » Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:58 am

Yeah, the basic point is there aren't an awful lot of jobs around period. It's not like things get less competitive as you go down the food chain. Small firms don't exactly do a lot of hiring. PI and gov't positions are still extremely competitive. I mean, sure it's easy to say go to Wyoming if you want to practice in Wyoming, but that ignores there's a 40% chance you won't be practicing law. http://www.uwyo.edu/law/_files/docs/career%20services/2011-salary-employment-bestpractices.pdf

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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby JJ123 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:22 am

Depends on your region. If you want to work in Texas, Texas is fine. If you want to work in Ohio, Ohio State is fine. If you want to work in New York, those are not very good choices.

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Samara
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby Samara » Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:26 am

hashashin wrote:While there is obviously a large NLJ250 gap between GULC (and Michigan, too) and DCNV, the SALARY data for the c/o 2012 that GULC hosts on its website (http://www.law.georgetown.edu/careers/o ... ry-6-5.pdf) does indicate that GULC grads are, on average, not doing too much worse than NU grads as far as six-figure private sector salaries go (50.1% of GULC grads TOTAL made >100K in 2012 versus 56% of NU grads, and that difference becomes almost negligible when one considers GULC's ENORMOUS PI rate). However GULC is pulling this off (i.e. Law Firm, six figure JD advantage, or a combination thereof), it seems that the prospects of being financially fucked by GULC are about as low as other lower T14s. This certainly factored into my decision-making while I was weighing GULC against Duke and Cornell this year.

This. Too many people on here repeat the NLJ250 number as if those are your odds of landing a good employment outcome.

GULC may be at the bottom of the T14 right now, but there has not been a permanent or large enough shift to warrant T13 designation. DC is still one of the top markets in the country and if I wanted to work there, I would take GULC over any other lower-T14 school.

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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby BigZuck » Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:57 pm

Samara wrote:
hashashin wrote:While there is obviously a large NLJ250 gap between GULC (and Michigan, too) and DCNV, the SALARY data for the c/o 2012 that GULC hosts on its website (http://www.law.georgetown.edu/careers/o ... ry-6-5.pdf) does indicate that GULC grads are, on average, not doing too much worse than NU grads as far as six-figure private sector salaries go (50.1% of GULC grads TOTAL made >100K in 2012 versus 56% of NU grads, and that difference becomes almost negligible when one considers GULC's ENORMOUS PI rate). However GULC is pulling this off (i.e. Law Firm, six figure JD advantage, or a combination thereof), it seems that the prospects of being financially fucked by GULC are about as low as other lower T14s. This certainly factored into my decision-making while I was weighing GULC against Duke and Cornell this year.

This. Too many people on here repeat the NLJ250 number as if those are your odds of landing a good employment outcome.

GULC may be at the bottom of the T14 right now, but there has not been a permanent or large enough shift to warrant T13 designation. DC is still one of the top markets in the country and if I wanted to work there, I would take GULC over any other lower-T14 school.


Over Duke and UVA?

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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby NYstate » Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:57 pm

I love how people make themselves feel better by distinguishing that they don't want biglaw. Temporary saint was taking about ANY law. He was talking about the total number of SA spots for any firm-be it mid or shit law. Please tell me, if you're not hired by a law firm from a regional school, what would you be doing for a job?


There was a very thoughtful post from a HLS grad about her regret from going to law school. Some reasons are relevant here:
Even though she didn't want biglaw, biglaw is an important credential.
PI jobs had drawbacks she didn't expect.
LRAP requires you to live on very little money for 10 years.
Biglaw hires the most new grads, so there are more jobs.

My point is that even if you think you don't want biglaw, you may change your mind.

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jbagelboy
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:08 pm

NYstate wrote:
I love how people make themselves feel better by distinguishing that they don't want biglaw. Temporary saint was taking about ANY law. He was talking about the total number of SA spots for any firm-be it mid or shit law. Please tell me, if you're not hired by a law firm from a regional school, what would you be doing for a job?


There was a very thoughtful post from a HLS grad about her regret from going to law school. Some reasons are relevant here:
Even though she didn't want biglaw, biglaw is an important credential.
PI jobs had drawbacks she didn't expect.
LRAP requires you to live on very little money for 10 years.
Biglaw hires the most new grads, so there are more jobs.

My point is that even if you think you don't want biglaw, you may change your mind.


As for the point about LRAP, is that really fair at the HYSCCN level?

Schools like Harvard and NYU allow you to make $80K/year and relieve your debt. Thats a very nice salary - nearly double the national family average. Am I missing something here? You get a free legal education and a very nice living wage as far as most middle class americans are concerned: assuming you have a two-salaried household, you're easily over $100K/year, which is more than most of our parents made and certainly sufficient for a very comfortable life. As a single earner @80K w/kids it would be tough in a high CoL location, but still considered upper middle class in most of the country.

Obviously obtaining and retaining the LRAP eligible positions is extremely challenging, but no one can reasonably claim that all T6 LRAPs require "living on very little money".

Please correct me if Im missing something, or maybe you just have extraordinarily high standards for what one considers sustainable material wealth

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Samara
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby Samara » Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:21 pm

BigZuck wrote:
Samara wrote:
hashashin wrote:While there is obviously a large NLJ250 gap between GULC (and Michigan, too) and DCNV, the SALARY data for the c/o 2012 that GULC hosts on its website (http://www.law.georgetown.edu/careers/o ... ry-6-5.pdf) does indicate that GULC grads are, on average, not doing too much worse than NU grads as far as six-figure private sector salaries go (50.1% of GULC grads TOTAL made >100K in 2012 versus 56% of NU grads, and that difference becomes almost negligible when one considers GULC's ENORMOUS PI rate). However GULC is pulling this off (i.e. Law Firm, six figure JD advantage, or a combination thereof), it seems that the prospects of being financially fucked by GULC are about as low as other lower T14s. This certainly factored into my decision-making while I was weighing GULC against Duke and Cornell this year.

This. Too many people on here repeat the NLJ250 number as if those are your odds of landing a good employment outcome.

GULC may be at the bottom of the T14 right now, but there has not been a permanent or large enough shift to warrant T13 designation. DC is still one of the top markets in the country and if I wanted to work there, I would take GULC over any other lower-T14 school.


Over Duke and UVA?

You could make a case for UVa; it's close enough that if you put in the work, you could still do a fair amount of networking. But yeah, I would take GULC over Duke if I were targeting DC. The difference in numbers would be made up for by the increased networking opportunities, IMO.

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Samara
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby Samara » Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:28 pm

jbagelboy wrote:As for the point about LRAP, is that really fair at the HYSCCN level?

Schools like Harvard and NYU allow you to make $80K/year and relieve your debt. Thats a very nice salary - nearly double the national family average. Am I missing something here? You get a free legal education and a very nice living wage as far as most middle class americans are concerned: assuming you have a two-salaried household, you're easily over $100K/year, which is more than most of our parents made and certainly sufficient for a very comfortable life. As a single earner @80K w/kids it would be tough in a high CoL location, but still considered upper middle class in most of the country.

Obviously obtaining and retaining the LRAP eligible positions is extremely challenging, but no one can reasonably claim that all T6 LRAPs require "living on very little money".

Please correct me if Im missing something, or maybe you just have extraordinarily high standards for what one considers sustainable material wealth

For one, good luck getting a PI job at $80k.

For two, looking at Harvard's program, if you're making $80k, you're contributing over $12k per year to your loans. And I imagine you're taxed as if you are making the full $80k. So, it's like you're making ~$65k. That's still a decent salary, but it's not a whole lot in NYC or DC, where most of the higher-paying PI jobs are. And even on the best LRAP programs, you're not really getting rid of your debt until the end.

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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby curious66 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:30 pm

I would recommend Duke over GULC regardless of a DC target market. reasons:

1. 3 years is a long time, your target market might change, interest might change etc. If that happens, you are better positioned at Duke for sure. If you still want DC -- duke places well there as well.
2. 600+/Huge class size at GULC -- vs. 200 or so at Duke. To me that makes for a better experience etc

Of course, if GULC gave you $$ and Duke was at sticker, then I would pick GULC. Less debt is always good.

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Samara
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby Samara » Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:34 pm

curious66 wrote:I would recommend Duke over GULC regardless of a DC target market. reasons:

1. 3 years is a long time, your target market might change, interest might change etc. If that happens, you are better positioned at Duke for sure. If you still want DC -- duke places well there as well.
2. 600+/Huge class size at GULC -- vs. 200 or so at Duke. To me that makes for a better experience etc

Of course, if GULC gave you $$ and Duke was at sticker, then I would pick GULC. Less debt is always good.

Those are fine reasons for you to pick Duke over GULC, but those are not good reasons to make a blanket recommendation. Class size is a completely personal choice and some people know for sure which market they want to target when they go to law school. IMO, if you don't know which market(s) you want before law school, you aren't ready to go to law school.

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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby CourCour » Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:42 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
As for the point about LRAP, is that really fair at the HYSCCN level?



LRAP quality doesn't necessarily correlate with rankings.

post on it:
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=119817

GULC you can make 75k before you have to pay anything and 100k before you get kicked off of support.

curious66
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby curious66 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:49 pm

Samara wrote:
curious66 wrote:I would recommend Duke over GULC regardless of a DC target market. reasons:

1. 3 years is a long time, your target market might change, interest might change etc. If that happens, you are better positioned at Duke for sure. If you still want DC -- duke places well there as well.
2. 600+/Huge class size at GULC -- vs. 200 or so at Duke. To me that makes for a better experience etc

Of course, if GULC gave you $$ and Duke was at sticker, then I would pick GULC. Less debt is always good.

Those are fine reasons for you to pick Duke over GULC, but those are not good reasons to make a blanket recommendation. Class size is a completely personal choice and some people know for sure which market they want to target when they go to law school. IMO, if you don't know which market(s) you want before law school, you aren't ready to go to law school.


I did say "to me" that makes for a better experience. I disagree you must be totally set on a target market -- the entire appeal of T14 vs. a regional school is national reach from the T14. I think it is wiseto have a preference and plan target market.. but things change (people find significant others etc).. over the course of 3 years. That's the point
Last edited by curious66 on Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby moonman157 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:50 pm

re: GULC

I do think it's interesting that, within tiers in the T14 (excluding HYS), the schools in each tier that have lagged behind their "peers" (NYU, Michigan, GULC) all seem to have the strongest focus on PI out of their respective peers. This is obviously speculation (much like a lot of this discussion) but I would venture to guess that at least part of their subpar numbers in terms of biglaw placement come not from their inability to place into biglaw but the fact that the 0Ls who enter in "PI or bust" tend to actually stay on that PI track, which often result in people with decent grades or credentials not getting a desirable outcome because of the competitiveness of those positions. I wouldn't want to be gunning for prestigious PI in DC from GULC without amazing grades, but is it that much easier to get NYC Biglaw out of Northwestern than it is from GULC, if NYC Biglaw is your focus?

Redfactor
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby Redfactor » Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:09 pm

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Last edited by Redfactor on Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:11 pm

Samara wrote:
hashashin wrote:While there is obviously a large NLJ250 gap between GULC (and Michigan, too) and DCNV, the SALARY data for the c/o 2012 that GULC hosts on its website (http://www.law.georgetown.edu/careers/o ... ry-6-5.pdf) does indicate that GULC grads are, on average, not doing too much worse than NU grads as far as six-figure private sector salaries go (50.1% of GULC grads TOTAL made >100K in 2012 versus 56% of NU grads, and that difference becomes almost negligible when one considers GULC's ENORMOUS PI rate). However GULC is pulling this off (i.e. Law Firm, six figure JD advantage, or a combination thereof), it seems that the prospects of being financially fucked by GULC are about as low as other lower T14s. This certainly factored into my decision-making while I was weighing GULC against Duke and Cornell this year.

This. Too many people on here repeat the NLJ250 number as if those are your odds of landing a good employment outcome.

GULC may be at the bottom of the T14 right now, but there has not been a permanent or large enough shift to warrant T13 designation. DC is still one of the top markets in the country and if I wanted to work there, I would take GULC over any other lower-T14 school.


Agreed. From my experience talking to people in DC, they can't seem to recommend GULC enough for DC Biglaw (to be fair, a couple of them were GULC grads). It's talked about in the same breath as UVA or Penn, which Duke never is. There also seems to be the idea that top 10% can essentially write their own ticket in DC, something which I could never imagine to be true for Duke grads.

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t-14orbust
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby t-14orbust » Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:12 pm

I'd say it's pretty accurate lol

Mal Reynolds
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Re: T 14 or bust- accurate?

Postby Mal Reynolds » Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:19 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:There also seems to be the idea that top 10% can essentially write their own ticket in DC, something which I could never imagine to be true for Duke grads.


wut




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