MBA/JD vs. MFin + JD (afterwards)

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Glaucon
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MBA/JD vs. MFin + JD (afterwards)

Postby Glaucon » Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:12 pm

It's been a while since I've posted on this forum so I can only infer from the section title that this board is for miscellaneous topics. My question is whether I should pursue a MBA/JD degree for a career in M&A, or pursue a Masters in Finance at an elite European institute (e.g. IE, Oxford, HEC Paris, St. Gallen, Cranfield (perhaps)) and then a JD afterwards. The benefits of this alternative involve money; it's slightly cheaper to do a MFin/MSc of Finance abroad and a JD afterwards, I may secure a large scholarship (I cannot do so presently) when I apply with a MFin in my backpocket, and a possible route of retreat if I discover that law and I are ill-suited. The Master of Finance programs in Europe are the best globally especially for graduates with no prior experience in finance, whereas a MBA/JD will lock me in the program for at least 2 years with my tuition squandered if I ever wished to back out. I graduated from the University of Toronto with a cgpa of 3.61 (top 10%); a best LSAT score of 167; a GMAT score of 780. I plan on practising M&A in Canada. Does anyone know how valuable financial experience is to a career in M&A, and if beneficial, whether there's any difference between a MBA and a MFin (Master in Finance)? According to the curriculum offered for the MBA/JD at UofT, a Master of Finance curriculum covers essentially the same thing a MBA majoring in Finance would cover; except for managerial accounting, organizational structure, strategic negotiations and operations management. Are these courses what separate a MBA/JD career in M&A from those with a MFin? Anyone?

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guano
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Re: MBA/JD vs. MFin + JD (afterwards)

Postby guano » Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:14 pm

Take the MFin, skip the JD

Glaucon
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Re: MBA/JD vs. MFin + JD (afterwards)

Postby Glaucon » Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:39 pm

Thanks for the concern, but the Canadian market isn't as saturated as the US.

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guano
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Re: MBA/JD vs. MFin + JD (afterwards)

Postby guano » Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:58 pm

Time for a real answer.

An MFin goes much more in-depth than an MBA, while an MBA is much broader. If you're deadset on M&A take the MFin which will teach you much more about finance than an MBA. An MBA is more generally focused on business, and includes classes that you will have little to no use for, such as IT. Deming has no relevance whatsoever for M&A, but will take up a not insignificant amount of time during an MBA.
On the other hand, an MFin will go much more indepth on eg black-scholes (an MBA teaches you what it is, but not how to do it)

doyouevenlift
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Re: MBA/JD vs. MFin + JD (afterwards)

Postby doyouevenlift » Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:36 pm

if I remember correctly, Canadian schools will look at only your best two or three consecutive years. is this reflected in the GPA you listed there or is that a cumulative GPA? and that 167 should be good enough for the top law schools in Canada including UofT. In fact the median at UofT is 167, so if that GPA is on the low side without the one year omission thing that they do up there, you could be in good shape.

My question to you however is whether you mean strictly finance M&A or if you wanna actually be drafting up the deals as a lawyer. If you want to do the legal side of M&A, fuck getting an MS or MBA, you dont need that stuff. I think youre selling yourself short by saying you cant get into a top Canadian law school with some money with your stats. and I think you got a good shot at UofT, Osgoode, and Mcgill which will all get you to Bayshore.

IF you want to do the finance side, dont get a JD man.

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twenty
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Re: MBA/JD vs. MFin + JD (afterwards)

Postby twenty » Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:15 pm

doyouevenlift wrote:post


I wasn't going to take your post super seriously because of all the bad grammar, but you offered surprisingly helpful advice. :o

Glaucon
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Re: MBA/JD vs. MFin + JD (afterwards)

Postby Glaucon » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:50 am

doyouevenlift wrote:if I remember correctly, Canadian schools will look at only your best two or three consecutive years. is this reflected in the GPA you listed there or is that a cumulative GPA? and that 167 should be good enough for the top law schools in Canada including UofT. In fact the median at UofT is 167, so if that GPA is on the low side without the one year omission thing that they do up there, you could be in good shape.

My question to you however is whether you mean strictly finance M&A or if you wanna actually be drafting up the deals as a lawyer. If you want to do the legal side of M&A, fuck getting an MS or MBA, you dont need that stuff. I think youre selling yourself short by saying you cant get into a top Canadian law school with some money with your stats. and I think you got a good shot at UofT, Osgoode, and Mcgill which will all get you to Bayshore.

IF you want to do the finance side, dont get a JD man.


3.61 is my cumulative but, because I messed up in third year (3.32/B+ average), my trend of averages is somewhat downward sloping. My best three years average around 3.71. I also took my fourth year off for reasons most schools would disapprove of, so it took me 5 years to complete a standard 4 year Canadian degree. I had to take the LSAT three times to score 167, scoring 163 and 159 (ouch) the first two times, respectively. My ec's are virtually nonexistent and definitely not commensurate to other academic keeners with my raw stats. I tutored university-level, intermediate macreconomics and introductory econometrics for a private tutoring company, I was and still am a research assistant for a tenured professor at the University of Macau and junior editor to the revision and publication of his dissertation on the postmodern paradigms in east-asian (oriental) literature, which is scheduled to be commercially printed by the Oxford University Press, and I was executive treasurer and fundraiser for an on-campus, social justice advocacy group. THAT'S IT. I have no finance experience asides from being a treasurer and have taken courses in investments and corporate finance during my undergrad. I'm also a year removed from graduation, having secured nothing more than administrative assistant work for full-time work. The finance job market in Toronto is just brutal at the moment for a Political Theory and Econ major. No, I don't think I'm selling my self short. I was waitlisted by Osgoode Hall Law School (did not receive an offer) and rejected from UofT for this sun-setting cycle, though I got into a few other schools I only applied to as back-up formalities. My 167 score is from this past June, so I didn't have the benefit/opportunity of presenting a rising trend in my LSAT score. However, I don't think a 4 point rise in my lsat, by itself, can secure a large scholarship offer, anywhere. I know I need post-grad work to have a shot at it, though I think that a MSc/MFin from an elite European institution can do it for me and offer an alternative career path if I decide against law. The average salary of graduates two years removed from the European schools in question, with no prior work experience, is 85k USD, which is about the same average for recent grads from UofT's MBA program.


guano wrote:Time for a real answer.

An MFin goes much more in-depth than an MBA, while an MBA is much broader. If you're deadset on M&A take the MFin which will teach you much more about finance than an MBA. An MBA is more generally focused on business, and includes classes that you will have little to no use for, such as IT. Deming has no relevance whatsoever for M&A, but will take up a not insignificant amount of time during an MBA.
On the other hand, an MFin will go much more indepth on eg black-scholes (an MBA teaches you what it is, but not how to do it)


Having shared that bit of neuroticism concerning my own perceived inadequacy in the job market, I'll turn to thanking you for your very helpful advice and also following up with a few clarifications. I'm set on M&A, but a MBA majoring in finance from a reputable school, like UofT, would in fact go as deeply into the same material as a MFin. The really itchy aspect of my question is whether the courses like organization structures, strategic management, leadership and negotiations, and really just the designation of a MBA as opposed to a MFin, will open more job opportunities down the line.

Glaucon
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Re: MBA/JD vs. MFin + JD (afterwards)

Postby Glaucon » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:58 am

P.S. With the exception of 2-3 obscure schools, Canadian schools don't drop any years from your transcript (that was the old policy). Some will simply place greater emphasis on your last two years, which is to my detriment.

sighsigh
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Re: MBA/JD vs. MFin + JD (afterwards)

Postby sighsigh » Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:46 am

Osgoode switched to a cGPA policy this year. What's your OSLAS cGPA? I'm guessing a UofT/LSDAS 3.61 is probably an OSLAS low-mid 3.5, right? If you get your LSAT up to 170 you'll probably get in to Osgoode. UBC will also be quite kind to you with a high LSAT.

EDIT: Nm, you have 3 takes anyways. Plus you probably got into Queens/Western which is pretty close to Osgoode... it wouldn't be smart to waste a year just to reapply.

What is the reason you took fourth year off for?

Glaucon
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Re: MBA/JD vs. MFin + JD (afterwards)

Postby Glaucon » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:08 am

sighsigh wrote:Osgoode switched to a cGPA policy this year. What's your OSLAS cGPA? I'm guessing a UofT/LSDAS 3.61 is probably an OSLAS low-mid 3.5, right? If you get your LSAT up to 170 you'll probably get in to Osgoode. UBC will also be quite kind to you with a high LSAT.

EDIT: Nm, you have 3 takes anyways. Plus you probably got into Queens/Western which is pretty close to Osgoode... it wouldn't be smart to waste a year just to reapply.

What is the reason you took fourth year off for?


My OLSAS adjusted cgpa is 3.59; I got into Western and Queen's, but neither is spectacular for M&A. Despite the fact that Western has officially declared that it will pursue transforming itself into a top-tier business school with absolute abandon, and abandon the funding of its other law departments it most certainly has, it'll take a few years before it can attract the right faculty and design the proper program curriculums. Current entries wouldn't benefit much from their proposed revamp. The 2 year delay into law school will be worth it if a MFin (professional degree) from either IE, HEC Paris, or Oxford can open up doors for my legal practice down the line. And given the purported decline in elite applicants down in the US, dare I dream for NYU (to practice in the tri-state area) with a solid gpa from a world renowned professional program?

Osgoode is not as cGPA centric as you think; many people with borderline 160 lsats, sub 3.4 cgpas but holding post-grad (MA) degrees have gotten in. My reason is really lousy (I didn't explain myself in my PS): bad break up (the reason I blew my exams leading to a B+ average on the year) and uncertainty of whether I wanted to continue as a Pol Theory + Econ Major, or to switch to a financial econ specialist (the switch would've added an additional 2 years, but the year off wouldn't have prolonged my academic tenure if I elected to do full course loads in the summers). Since I went to university at 17, I thought a year off was somewhat justified :P

P.S. My LSDAS cgpa is 3.61.

doyouevenlift
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Re: MBA/JD vs. MFin + JD (afterwards)

Postby doyouevenlift » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:44 am

Glaucon wrote:
sighsigh wrote:Osgoode switched to a cGPA policy this year. What's your OSLAS cGPA? I'm guessing a UofT/LSDAS 3.61 is probably an OSLAS low-mid 3.5, right? If you get your LSAT up to 170 you'll probably get in to Osgoode. UBC will also be quite kind to you with a high LSAT.

EDIT: Nm, you have 3 takes anyways. Plus you probably got into Queens/Western which is pretty close to Osgoode... it wouldn't be smart to waste a year just to reapply.

What is the reason you took fourth year off for?


My OLSAS adjusted cgpa is 3.59; I got into Western and Queen's, but neither is spectacular for M&A. Despite the fact that Western has officially declared that it will pursue transforming itself into a top-tier business school with absolute abandon, and abandon the funding of its other law departments it most certainly has, it'll take a few years before it can attract the right faculty and design the proper program curriculums. Current entries wouldn't benefit much from their proposed revamp. The 2 year delay into law school will be worth it if a MFin (professional degree) from either IE, HEC Paris, or Oxford can open up doors for my legal practice down the line. And given the purported decline in elite applicants down in the US, dare I dream for NYU (to practice in the tri-state area) with a solid gpa from a world renowned professional program?

Osgoode is not as cGPA centric as you think; many people with borderline 160 lsats, sub 3.4 cgpas but holding post-grad (MA) degrees have gotten in. My reason is really lousy (I didn't explain myself in my PS): bad break up (the reason I blew my exams leading to a B+ average on the year) and uncertainty of whether I wanted to continue as a Pol Theory + Econ Major, or to switch to a financial econ specialist (the switch would've added an additional 2 years, but the year off wouldn't have prolonged my academic tenure if I elected to do full course loads in the summers). Since I went to university at 17, I thought a year off was somewhat justified :P

P.S. My LSDAS cgpa is 3.61.


im not sure if i am misunderstanding you or not, but law admissions will not take your MS or MBA degree gpa into account outside of a slight boost to your softs and overall application. It doesnt matter if you get one of these degrees from a prestigious institution, your numbers are too low for NYU. But if you want to practice in canada I would say reapply for sure just to see what you would get. I believe that 4 point increase on the LSAT will really improve your chances at some top schools there. I think Osgoode is a lock honestly and dont really see you not getting money from them if you reapply. UofT is obviously still a long shot.

Also you talk about money being an issue as far as not being a competitive enough applicant to receive any significant scholarship and how this is weighing on your decision, but you want to tack on an additional degree and more debt in order to increase your chances at a better admission cycle for law school. IF you want to practice law, regardless of the kind of practice, I would not get an MS or MBA. this additional degree will not really help you get into UofT or Mcgill, and you are already in at every other law school in canada with your grades. Those degrees will not really help you get a significant amount of scholarship to outweigh the debt youd be going into in order to get them. They will probably not open up any doors as far as your practice is concerned. You dont need to know the inner workings of finance in order to do transactional work. The only reason to get these additional degrees is if you are not sure you want to practice and in that case, do not go to law school at all until you figure it out and certainly dont go get another degree if you think youll just revert back to law school, as i believe this to be a tremendous waste of money. you should pick one venue, MSF or JD.

doyouevenlift
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Re: MBA/JD vs. MFin + JD (afterwards)

Postby doyouevenlift » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:52 am

twentypercentmore wrote:
doyouevenlift wrote:post


I wasn't going to take your post super seriously because of all the bad grammar, but you offered surprisingly helpful advice. :o


ah man im lazy as shit

Glaucon
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Re: MBA/JD vs. MFin + JD (afterwards)

Postby Glaucon » Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:28 pm

doyouevenlift wrote:
Glaucon wrote:
sighsigh wrote:Osgoode switched to a cGPA policy this year. What's your OSLAS cGPA? I'm guessing a UofT/LSDAS 3.61 is probably an OSLAS low-mid 3.5, right? If you get your LSAT up to 170 you'll probably get in to Osgoode. UBC will also be quite kind to you with a high LSAT.

EDIT: Nm, you have 3 takes anyways. Plus you probably got into Queens/Western which is pretty close to Osgoode... it wouldn't be smart to waste a year just to reapply.

What is the reason you took fourth year off for?


My OLSAS adjusted cgpa is 3.59; I got into Western and Queen's, but neither is spectacular for M&A. Despite the fact that Western has officially declared that it will pursue transforming itself into a top-tier business school with absolute abandon, and abandon the funding of its other law departments it most certainly has, it'll take a few years before it can attract the right faculty and design the proper program curriculums. Current entries wouldn't benefit much from their proposed revamp. The 2 year delay into law school will be worth it if a MFin (professional degree) from either IE, HEC Paris, or Oxford can open up doors for my legal practice down the line. And given the purported decline in elite applicants down in the US, dare I dream for NYU (to practice in the tri-state area) with a solid gpa from a world renowned professional program?

Osgoode is not as cGPA centric as you think; many people with borderline 160 lsats, sub 3.4 cgpas but holding post-grad (MA) degrees have gotten in. My reason is really lousy (I didn't explain myself in my PS): bad break up (the reason I blew my exams leading to a B+ average on the year) and uncertainty of whether I wanted to continue as a Pol Theory + Econ Major, or to switch to a financial econ specialist (the switch would've added an additional 2 years, but the year off wouldn't have prolonged my academic tenure if I elected to do full course loads in the summers). Since I went to university at 17, I thought a year off was somewhat justified :P

P.S. My LSDAS cgpa is 3.61.


im not sure if i am misunderstanding you or not, but law admissions will not take your MS or MBA degree gpa into account outside of a slight boost to your softs and overall application. It doesnt matter if you get one of these degrees from a prestigious institution, your numbers are too low for NYU. But if you want to practice in canada I would say reapply for sure just to see what you would get. I believe that 4 point increase on the LSAT will really improve your chances at some top schools there. I think Osgoode is a lock honestly and dont really see you not getting money from them if you reapply. UofT is obviously still a long shot.

Also you talk about money being an issue as far as not being a competitive enough applicant to receive any significant scholarship and how this is weighing on your decision, but you want to tack on an additional degree and more debt in order to increase your chances at a better admission cycle for law school. IF you want to practice law, regardless of the kind of practice, I would not get an MS or MBA. this additional degree will not really help you get into UofT or Mcgill, and you are already in at every other law school in canada with your grades. Those degrees will not really help you get a significant amount of scholarship to outweigh the debt youd be going into in order to get them. They will probably not open up any doors as far as your practice is concerned. You dont need to know the inner workings of finance in order to do transactional work. The only reason to get these additional degrees is if you are not sure you want to practice and in that case, do not go to law school at all until you figure it out and certainly dont go get another degree if you think youll just revert back to law school, as i believe this to be a tremendous waste of money. you should pick one venue, MSF or JD.


Sorry, money is only a factor in my decision between a MBA/JD vs. MFin+JD. I should have known that US students (if you are one) are under a different career schedule due to their financial situation; Canadian schools cost about 25k for the entirety of their undergrad and I am currently debt free. I was actually told by Western adcom that the gpa of a professional degree is, in fact, taken into serious consideration (at the very least it counts as an additional year's worth of GPA to be calculated with my undergrad cGPA). I was also confided to by UofT professors and other insiders of speculations that, given the recent decline in first-tier applicants, professional and post-graduate degrees will probably be given greater weighting in the future. That being said, I do believe that a MFin can help me secure a large entrance scholarship from Osgoode, such that I would graduate from OZ with about 10k less debt than if I had applied to their MBA/JD program. Furthermore, a MFin from IE (let's say) grants me immediate earning power of about ~80k USD annually. The earning power of a MBA/JD, on the other hand, can't be reaped for 4 years, and the often touted earning power of a lone MBA is simply out of reach for someone with essentially 0 financial work experience. In sum, a possible MFin+JD is a superior alternative to a dual MBA/JD for someone who has zero work experience, no immediate earning prospects and is uncertain of whether they wish to pursue law. MFin+JD is certainly worth a large debt if it contributes to my success as a M&A lawyer. Yet, you claim that legal transactions do not require indepth knowledge of the finance side of the equation. To which, I then ask, why are dual MBA/JDs even in vogue?

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buns
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Re: MBA/JD vs. MFin + JD (afterwards)

Postby buns » Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:49 pm

Glaucon wrote:
sighsigh wrote:Osgoode switched to a cGPA policy this year. What's your OSLAS cGPA? I'm guessing a UofT/LSDAS 3.61 is probably an OSLAS low-mid 3.5, right? If you get your LSAT up to 170 you'll probably get in to Osgoode. UBC will also be quite kind to you with a high LSAT.

EDIT: Nm, you have 3 takes anyways. Plus you probably got into Queens/Western which is pretty close to Osgoode... it wouldn't be smart to waste a year just to reapply.

What is the reason you took fourth year off for?


My OLSAS adjusted cgpa is 3.59; I got into Western and Queen's, but neither is spectacular for M&A. Despite the fact that Western has officially declared that it will pursue transforming itself into a top-tier business school with absolute abandon, and abandon the funding of its other law departments it most certainly has, it'll take a few years before it can attract the right faculty and design the proper program curriculums. Current entries wouldn't benefit much from their proposed revamp. The 2 year delay into law school will be worth it if a MFin (professional degree) from either IE, HEC Paris, or Oxford can open up doors for my legal practice down the line. And given the purported decline in elite applicants down in the US, dare I dream for NYU (to practice in the tri-state area) with a solid gpa from a world renowned professional program?

Osgoode is not as cGPA centric as you think; many people with borderline 160 lsats, sub 3.4 cgpas but holding post-grad (MA) degrees have gotten in. My reason is really lousy (I didn't explain myself in my PS): bad break up (the reason I blew my exams leading to a B+ average on the year) and uncertainty of whether I wanted to continue as a Pol Theory + Econ Major, or to switch to a financial econ specialist (the switch would've added an additional 2 years, but the year off wouldn't have prolonged my academic tenure if I elected to do full course loads in the summers). Since I went to university at 17, I thought a year off was somewhat justified :P

P.S. My LSDAS cgpa is 3.61.


No school is "better for M&A" than any other school when it comes to faculty and curriculum or whatever. What matters is what school gives you the best shot at getting a Bay Street job. Here's the most recent year's hiring data: http://ultravires.ca/2012/11/hiring-falls-to-historic-lows-lowest-recruitment-numbers-since-2003/

Last year wasn't pretty, even at UofT only 46% landed jobs through OCI. Osgoode/Western/Queen's all seem to check in together around 25-30% annually. If you go into the archives of that site you can find previous years' data (it will always be in the November issue each year).

Glaucon
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Re: MBA/JD vs. MFin + JD (afterwards)

Postby Glaucon » Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:02 pm

buns wrote:
Glaucon wrote:
sighsigh wrote:Osgoode switched to a cGPA policy this year. What's your OSLAS cGPA? I'm guessing a UofT/LSDAS 3.61 is probably an OSLAS low-mid 3.5, right? If you get your LSAT up to 170 you'll probably get in to Osgoode. UBC will also be quite kind to you with a high LSAT.

EDIT: Nm, you have 3 takes anyways. Plus you probably got into Queens/Western which is pretty close to Osgoode... it wouldn't be smart to waste a year just to reapply.

What is the reason you took fourth year off for?


My OLSAS adjusted cgpa is 3.59; I got into Western and Queen's, but neither is spectacular for M&A. Despite the fact that Western has officially declared that it will pursue transforming itself into a top-tier business school with absolute abandon, and abandon the funding of its other law departments it most certainly has, it'll take a few years before it can attract the right faculty and design the proper program curriculums. Current entries wouldn't benefit much from their proposed revamp. The 2 year delay into law school will be worth it if a MFin (professional degree) from either IE, HEC Paris, or Oxford can open up doors for my legal practice down the line. And given the purported decline in elite applicants down in the US, dare I dream for NYU (to practice in the tri-state area) with a solid gpa from a world renowned professional program?

Osgoode is not as cGPA centric as you think; many people with borderline 160 lsats, sub 3.4 cgpas but holding post-grad (MA) degrees have gotten in. My reason is really lousy (I didn't explain myself in my PS): bad break up (the reason I blew my exams leading to a B+ average on the year) and uncertainty of whether I wanted to continue as a Pol Theory + Econ Major, or to switch to a financial econ specialist (the switch would've added an additional 2 years, but the year off wouldn't have prolonged my academic tenure if I elected to do full course loads in the summers). Since I went to university at 17, I thought a year off was somewhat justified :P

P.S. My LSDAS cgpa is 3.61.


No school is "better for M&A" than any other school when it comes to faculty and curriculum or whatever. What matters is what school gives you the best shot at getting a Bay Street job. Here's the most recent year's hiring data: http://ultravires.ca/2012/11/hiring-falls-to-historic-lows-lowest-recruitment-numbers-since-2003/

Last year wasn't pretty, even at UofT only 46% landed jobs through OCI. Osgoode/Western/Queen's all seem to check in together around 25-30% annually. If you go into the archives of that site you can find previous years' data (it will always be in the November issue each year).


I don't believe a school's curriculum is entirely irrelevant to M&A law, e.g. Queen's doesn't offer enough indepth courses on international or corporate taxation as UBC/OZ do for those interested in specializing in that area of M&A. Buns, your point also begs the question of whether a professional degree in corporate finance, M&A, and securities can increase one's odds of landing a job through OCI, irrespective of one's school.

doyouevenlift
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Re: MBA/JD vs. MFin + JD (afterwards)

Postby doyouevenlift » Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:15 pm

Glaucon wrote:
doyouevenlift wrote:
Glaucon wrote:
sighsigh wrote:Osgoode switched to a cGPA policy this year. What's your OSLAS cGPA? I'm guessing a UofT/LSDAS 3.61 is probably an OSLAS low-mid 3.5, right? If you get your LSAT up to 170 you'll probably get in to Osgoode. UBC will also be quite kind to you with a high LSAT.

EDIT: Nm, you have 3 takes anyways. Plus you probably got into Queens/Western which is pretty close to Osgoode... it wouldn't be smart to waste a year just to reapply.

What is the reason you took fourth year off for?


My OLSAS adjusted cgpa is 3.59; I got into Western and Queen's, but neither is spectacular for M&A. Despite the fact that Western has officially declared that it will pursue transforming itself into a top-tier business school with absolute abandon, and abandon the funding of its other law departments it most certainly has, it'll take a few years before it can attract the right faculty and design the proper program curriculums. Current entries wouldn't benefit much from their proposed revamp. The 2 year delay into law school will be worth it if a MFin (professional degree) from either IE, HEC Paris, or Oxford can open up doors for my legal practice down the line. And given the purported decline in elite applicants down in the US, dare I dream for NYU (to practice in the tri-state area) with a solid gpa from a world renowned professional program?

Osgoode is not as cGPA centric as you think; many people with borderline 160 lsats, sub 3.4 cgpas but holding post-grad (MA) degrees have gotten in. My reason is really lousy (I didn't explain myself in my PS): bad break up (the reason I blew my exams leading to a B+ average on the year) and uncertainty of whether I wanted to continue as a Pol Theory + Econ Major, or to switch to a financial econ specialist (the switch would've added an additional 2 years, but the year off wouldn't have prolonged my academic tenure if I elected to do full course loads in the summers). Since I went to university at 17, I thought a year off was somewhat justified :P

P.S. My LSDAS cgpa is 3.61.


im not sure if i am misunderstanding you or not, but law admissions will not take your MS or MBA degree gpa into account outside of a slight boost to your softs and overall application. It doesnt matter if you get one of these degrees from a prestigious institution, your numbers are too low for NYU. But if you want to practice in canada I would say reapply for sure just to see what you would get. I believe that 4 point increase on the LSAT will really improve your chances at some top schools there. I think Osgoode is a lock honestly and dont really see you not getting money from them if you reapply. UofT is obviously still a long shot.

Also you talk about money being an issue as far as not being a competitive enough applicant to receive any significant scholarship and how this is weighing on your decision, but you want to tack on an additional degree and more debt in order to increase your chances at a better admission cycle for law school. IF you want to practice law, regardless of the kind of practice, I would not get an MS or MBA. this additional degree will not really help you get into UofT or Mcgill, and you are already in at every other law school in canada with your grades. Those degrees will not really help you get a significant amount of scholarship to outweigh the debt youd be going into in order to get them. They will probably not open up any doors as far as your practice is concerned. You dont need to know the inner workings of finance in order to do transactional work. The only reason to get these additional degrees is if you are not sure you want to practice and in that case, do not go to law school at all until you figure it out and certainly dont go get another degree if you think youll just revert back to law school, as i believe this to be a tremendous waste of money. you should pick one venue, MSF or JD.


Sorry, money is only a factor in my decision between a MBA/JD vs. MFin+JD. I should have known that US students (if you are one) are under a different career schedule due to their financial situation; Canadian schools cost about 25k for the entirety of their undergrad and I am currently debt free. I was actually told by Western adcom that the gpa of a professional degree is, in fact, taken into serious consideration (at the very least it counts as an additional year's worth of GPA to be calculated with my undergrad cGPA). I was also confided to by UofT professors and other insiders of speculations that, given the recent decline in first-tier applicants, professional and post-graduate degrees will probably be given greater weighting in the future. That being said, I do believe that a MFin can help me secure a large entrance scholarship from Osgoode, such that I would graduate from OZ with about 10k less debt than if I had applied to their MBA/JD program. Furthermore, a MFin from IE (let's say) grants me immediate earning power of about ~80k USD annually. The earning power of a MBA/JD, on the other hand, can't be reaped for 4 years, and the often touted earning power of a lone MBA is simply out of reach for someone with essentially 0 financial work experience. In sum, a possible MFin+JD is a superior alternative to a dual MBA/JD for someone who has zero work experience, no immediate earning prospects and is uncertain of whether they wish to pursue law. MFin+JD is certainly worth a large debt if it contributes to my success as a M&A lawyer. Yet, you claim that legal transactions do not require indepth knowledge of the finance side of the equation. To which, I then ask, why are dual MBA/JDs even in vogue?



Ahh, if the graduate gpa is calculated into your cumulative, you can safely disregard my advice as it would be to your benefit to raise it in any way possible. in the US, and i thought this was universal, only your undergraduate counts, and any additional degree is seen merely as a resume stat padder.

However, dual MBA/JDs are NOT in vogue. They sound real sexy and are certainly great marketing tools for schools trying to sign kids up for thousands of dollars worth of investment when those kids arent really sure what they want to do. But you gotta choose one industry in the end and thats the problem. Law firms often are wary of hiring someone with the dual degree because they think they might jump ship for something other than law. MBA hirers have the same perspective from the other side. The knowledge gained from an JD/MBA is best suited for starting your own business, or if you have already established yourself in an industry and have a somewhat very specific job title you are hoping to attain. It is certainly of great use in many aspects of broadening your knowledge and skill set but this just does not translate into a career blazing trail if you are simply a recent graduate looking to enter either the legal or finance industries. when you choose which route you want, you will end up not using one half of your degree and this is just the nature of the JD as a professional degree.

If you want to be a lawyer, what you need is a JD. You will not be using the knowledge you gain from the finance degree as an M&A lawyer. Those guys in finance doing M&A will be using that degree, and will confer to you how to translate that into legalese. You will not assess the quantitative merits of a merger as an M&A lawyer. You want the merger to happen, because you will draft up all the gorgeous stipulations that each side has agreed upon and you will make a good bit of scratch doing so. However, nothing you write up will require any knowledge of finance. I know people doing M&A law with nothing other than a history BA and their law degree. I still stand by the fact that a MF is not going to further your career in M&A or make you more attractive to a Bayshore firm.

THAT BEING SAID, i think it IS worth it to get the MF if it will raise your cumulative gpa to a point where you can get into Oz, Mcgill, or UofT, and I believe that this is the only benefit you will receive from the degree should you choose to focus on being a lawyer in the end. of course, if you dont wanna be a lawyer, you will also have a good back up with the MF so all in all i agree with you. do not get the MBA though and just understand that you are MOST LIKELY going to end up using only one of your degrees for the foreseeable future of your young career.

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buns
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Re: MBA/JD vs. MFin + JD (afterwards)

Postby buns » Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:23 pm

Glaucon wrote:
buns wrote:
Glaucon wrote:
sighsigh wrote:Osgoode switched to a cGPA policy this year. What's your OSLAS cGPA? I'm guessing a UofT/LSDAS 3.61 is probably an OSLAS low-mid 3.5, right? If you get your LSAT up to 170 you'll probably get in to Osgoode. UBC will also be quite kind to you with a high LSAT.

EDIT: Nm, you have 3 takes anyways. Plus you probably got into Queens/Western which is pretty close to Osgoode... it wouldn't be smart to waste a year just to reapply.

What is the reason you took fourth year off for?


My OLSAS adjusted cgpa is 3.59; I got into Western and Queen's, but neither is spectacular for M&A. Despite the fact that Western has officially declared that it will pursue transforming itself into a top-tier business school with absolute abandon, and abandon the funding of its other law departments it most certainly has, it'll take a few years before it can attract the right faculty and design the proper program curriculums. Current entries wouldn't benefit much from their proposed revamp. The 2 year delay into law school will be worth it if a MFin (professional degree) from either IE, HEC Paris, or Oxford can open up doors for my legal practice down the line. And given the purported decline in elite applicants down in the US, dare I dream for NYU (to practice in the tri-state area) with a solid gpa from a world renowned professional program?

Osgoode is not as cGPA centric as you think; many people with borderline 160 lsats, sub 3.4 cgpas but holding post-grad (MA) degrees have gotten in. My reason is really lousy (I didn't explain myself in my PS): bad break up (the reason I blew my exams leading to a B+ average on the year) and uncertainty of whether I wanted to continue as a Pol Theory + Econ Major, or to switch to a financial econ specialist (the switch would've added an additional 2 years, but the year off wouldn't have prolonged my academic tenure if I elected to do full course loads in the summers). Since I went to university at 17, I thought a year off was somewhat justified :P

P.S. My LSDAS cgpa is 3.61.


No school is "better for M&A" than any other school when it comes to faculty and curriculum or whatever. What matters is what school gives you the best shot at getting a Bay Street job. Here's the most recent year's hiring data: http://ultravires.ca/2012/11/hiring-falls-to-historic-lows-lowest-recruitment-numbers-since-2003/

Last year wasn't pretty, even at UofT only 46% landed jobs through OCI. Osgoode/Western/Queen's all seem to check in together around 25-30% annually. If you go into the archives of that site you can find previous years' data (it will always be in the November issue each year).


I don't believe a school's curriculum is entirely irrelevant to M&A law, e.g. Queen's doesn't offer enough indepth courses on international or corporate taxation as UBC/OZ do for those interested in specializing in that area of M&A. Buns, your point also begs the question of whether a professional degree in corporate finance, M&A, and securities can increase one's odds of landing a job through OCI, irrespective of one's school.


Sure certain schools will offer more advanced classes in corporate law than others, but going to these schools and taking those classes won't have any impact on your ability to get a job. From my experience, the Toronto OCI process is almost all about your 1L grades. Toronto OCI is 100% preselect by the firms as opposed to the lottery systems employed by many US schools. So your grades and how you look on paper will get your foot in the door, the rest is about how you interview and whether you click with the lawyers.

I do think that a professional degree in corporate finance, etc can help. There are firms who tend to like people with BComm/BBA undergrad degrees or those pursuing a joint JD/MBA program. If anything it gives you a very legitimate reason for your cover letters as to why you want to practice corporate law. But the biggest factor by far are your law school grades and I can't stress that enough. When I went through the process I had no legit reason to go into M&A at all: I have a social science undergrad degree and my prior work experience was in law enforcement. But I had solid 1L grades and just shot the shit about the Leafs/Jays/Raptors/sports all through the OCIs and the callbacks and was able to secure job offers.

Glaucon
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Re: MBA/JD vs. MFin + JD (afterwards)

Postby Glaucon » Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:56 pm

Alrighty, thanks for the advice. For the record, to all those interested in Canadian schools, 'doyouevenlift' is right about most Canadian law schools NOT factoring grades from a professional degree. Only a handful of schools (those which take a more holistic approach) do, and certainly not UofT. The reason I thought a MFin would make me viable for NYU is that I'll be able to apply as a mature student a year after completing the MF. According to UofT, they do consider grades from graduate/professional degrees when undergrad scores are a few too many years removed for a mature applicant (I'm currently 23 and will be 25 when I complete the MF).




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