how do we feel about UC Irvine at this point?

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Dr. Dre
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Re: how do we feel about UC Irvine at this point?

Postby Dr. Dre » Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:24 am

No one cares about quality of education bro

that's soooo undergrad stuff

alexeipg
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Re: how do we feel about UC Irvine at this point?

Postby alexeipg » Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:24 am

Fine. If UCI proves to be good at screening students and using big scholarships to lure the really coveted ones--none of whom will change or learn anything during their subsequent three years of schooling, since education doesn't matter--then the school should continue to be successful in securing clerkships and good employment numbers.

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sublime
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Re: how do we feel about UC Irvine at this point?

Postby sublime » Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:27 am

..

alexeipg
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Re: how do we feel about UC Irvine at this point?

Postby alexeipg » Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:15 am

I'd say UCI's current score on law school transparency of 82% with no school funded jobs definitely qualifies as "good." And I think anything over 70% is still pretty good considering schools ranked in the teens all seem to be grouped around there.

If you are setting schools like Yale, Penn, and Chicago as the "good" benchmark, then obviously UCI is not likely to compete and no one in their right mind is saying it will (not even UCI). But, so far, the only data we have shows UCI looking competitive with basically every school ranked 15-30. Sure, you can say that's a fluke or whatever you like, but I'm not seeing much factual evidence or data to support the conclusion that UCI is suddenly going to start tanking.
Last edited by alexeipg on Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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sublime
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Re: how do we feel about UC Irvine at this point?

Postby sublime » Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:18 am

..

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Dr. Dre
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Re: how do we feel about UC Irvine at this point?

Postby Dr. Dre » Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:20 am

alexeipg wrote:I'm not seeing much factual evidence or data to support the conclusion that UCI is suddenly going to start tanking.



*First year class got full schollys

*Chemerinsky did everything in his power to place those graduates

*Billionaire Donald Bren donated millions to fund most of the school's expenses, which is going to run out

*UCI's LSAT/GPA numbers are dropping

*They are admitting a larger class size, and will continually do so

*Orange County is obsessed with USC

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sublime
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Re: how do we feel about UC Irvine at this point?

Postby sublime » Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:25 am

..

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Dr. Dre
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Re: how do we feel about UC Irvine at this point?

Postby Dr. Dre » Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:28 am

(cont.)

*COL is crazy expensive

*UC system is in financial ruins

*UCI, in general, doesn't have a great reputation

*SOCAL legal market sucks

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sublime
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Re: how do we feel about UC Irvine at this point?

Postby sublime » Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:29 am

..

alexeipg
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Re: how do we feel about UC Irvine at this point?

Postby alexeipg » Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:33 am

*First year class got full schollys
-and their medians dropped the following year, but have since stayed basically stable. I'd definitely agree that next year's employment stats will be more telling, but we don't have those yet.
*Chemerinsky did everything in his power to place those graduates
-wow, what a terrible thing to have happen at a law school.
*Billionaire Bren Evans donated millions to fund most of the school's expenses, which is going to run out[/quote]
-do you have any knowledge of their current finances or fundraising efforts?
*UCI's LSAT/GPA numbers are dropping
-they dropped after the first year and have since leveled off. As of now, they are not "dropping." Also, this is basically your first point rephrased.
*They are admitting a larger class size, and will continually do so[/quote]
-That's very legitimate. But the fact is, their medians have remained basically stable (after the first year) even as they've decreased scholarships and increased class size. So if anything that's reason for optimism.
*Orange County is obsessed with USC[/quote][/quote]
-I know a lot of people in LA and orange county who are anything but "obsessed" with USC.
Last edited by alexeipg on Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:36 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: how do we feel about UC Irvine at this point?

Postby Dr. Dre » Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:35 am

alexeipg wrote:-I know a lot of people in LA and orange county who are anything but "obsessed" with USC.



(outed as a UCLA graduate)

alexeipg
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Re: how do we feel about UC Irvine at this point?

Postby alexeipg » Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:41 am

*COL is crazy expensive
Which is why there are no good schools in LA, DC, NY, or San Francisco
*UC system is in financial ruins
which is why Berkeley and UCLA are also bound to fail?
*UCI, in general, doesn't have a great reputation
Look at the law schools in the top 30 and tell me that they all represent superb academic institutions with unimpeachable scholarly reputations.
*SOCAL legal market sucks
I don't really know if this is true or not, honestly.

And I'm from the east coast and went to east coast schools, so I don't personally have any bias against USC.
Last edited by alexeipg on Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: how do we feel about UC Irvine at this point?

Postby Dr. Dre » Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:51 am

*COL is crazy expensive
Which is why there are no good schools in LA, DC, NY, or San Francisco

NY, DC has schools actually worth going to. LA is meh, and so is SF

*UC system is in financial ruins
which is why Berkeley and UCLA are also bound to fail?


Cal and UCLA have large alumni support and can maintain their own. But UCI? LOL


*UCI, in general, doesn't have a great reputation
right. only superb academic institutions like GW, Alabama, Iowa, Minnesota, and Arizona State can make it into the top 30 rankings

Cause those schools you named are like the best in their state or one of the best. UCI is not even close to being one of the best in california


*SOCAL legal market sucks
I don't really know if this is true or not, honestly.


It is true. T14 graduates go there in droves and beat the little california law school graduates (except SLS)

alexeipg
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Re: how do we feel about UC Irvine at this point?

Postby alexeipg » Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:14 am

Point is that COL doesn't really prevent schools from doing well or getting highly ranked.

UCI does not have a big alumni base to hit up for money, but, nonetheless, they've clearly been successful getting funding thus far.

Many schools in the 10-30 range are not the best in their state. UCLA and USC have a better reputation than UCI (but worse than Stanford or Berkeley) and I would say that UCI probably will not be outperforming either of those schools on average. But it's not unreasonable to think it could be ranked somewhere between 18-30 and perform as such.

Again, no one is saying that UCI grads will be routinely beating out t14 grads for jobs, in socal or anywhere else.

bahamallamamama
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Re: how do we feel about UC Irvine at this point?

Postby bahamallamamama » Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:18 am

don't fuckin do it

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Ling520
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Re: how do we feel about UC Irvine at this point?

Postby Ling520 » Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:48 am

PDaddy wrote:UCI could become a poor man's version of Yale Law, where the students are truly in it for the love of the profession and don't necessarily seek biglaw,


I'm confused at how a school with an over 70k COA/year is a poor man's anything. Attendance costs roughly the same as YLS. A Ford isn't a poor man's Porsche if you're charging the same price for both. Perhaps, you mean that you have a greater chance of being a poor man if you attend UCI, but I don't see how that is an argument for UCI.

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Re: how do we feel about UC Irvine at this point?

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:57 am

alexeipg wrote:I noticed no one has even mentioned quality of education, which seems like it would be pretty relevant to the discussion. I'm not saying that UCI will definitely succeed in the future, but it's delusional to say that they haven't had a good start or that the school doesn't at least have the potential to continue doing well. Ultimately, it will come down to the quality of teaching and the performance of students.


That's because "quality of education" doesn't matter to prospective employers. I went to a T6. No employer ever told me "hey, you must be getting a quality legal education." They told me "hey, you must be a pretty smart dude." Even if UCI provides a quality education, it won't be better or worse than the other top 50 schools. I haven't seen much specific information on how they are doing things differently.

Why do you think legal employers would rather talk about your college basketball team than the content of your classes?

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guano
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Re: how do we feel about UC Irvine at this point?

Postby guano » Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:35 am

Ling520 wrote:
PDaddy wrote:UCI could become a poor man's version of Yale Law, where the students are truly in it for the love of the profession and don't necessarily seek biglaw,


I'm confused at how a school with an over 70k COA/year is a poor man's anything. Attendance costs roughly the same as YLS. A Ford isn't a poor man's Porsche if you're charging the same price for both. Perhaps, you mean that you have a greater chance of being a poor man if you attend UCI, but I don't see how that is an argument for UCI.

Calling Yale a Porsche is either pro-Porsche or anti-Yale trolling

pluto111
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Re: how do we feel about UC Irvine at this point?

Postby pluto111 » Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:46 am

timbs4339, I think the point being made is not that employers care about quality of education. Education impacts the quality of graduates and employers care about how their employees perform. So, if this first wave of UCI students perform well in their jobs, those employers will likely be receptive to hiring UCI grads in the future.

Reasons for optimism that UCI will provide above average training include the quality of faculty and the student:faculty ratio.

timbs4339
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Re: how do we feel about UC Irvine at this point?

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:57 am

pluto111 wrote:timbs4339, I think the point being made is not that employers care about quality of education. Education impacts the quality of graduates and employers care about how their employees perform. So, if this first wave of UCI students perform well in their jobs, those employers will likely be receptive to hiring UCI grads in the future.

Reasons for optimism that UCI will provide above average training include the quality of faculty and the student:faculty ratio.


You really didn't read my point. The point is that employers care about the quality of inputs (students) regardless of what they learn. If the UCI students perform well, it'll be because they are smart kids, not because of what they were taught. If employers are uncertain that future classes will have the same credentials, the school will have a problem. Here's a quote from a guy who knows a bit about law clerk hiring "you can't turn a silk purse into a sow's ear."

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... law_clerk/

There are a lot more than 25 or 30 law schools with low class sizes and quality faculty. Finding either of these things isn't the problem with legal education.

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Nova
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Re: how do we feel about UC Irvine at this point?

Postby Nova » Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:00 pm

0L, legal education is a joke and doesn't teach you shit.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: how do we feel about UC Irvine at this point?

Postby Dr. Dre » Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:50 pm

Ling520 wrote:Perhaps, you mean that you have a greater chance of being a poor man if you attend UCI



180

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jingosaur
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Re: how do we feel about UC Irvine at this point?

Postby jingosaur » Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:55 pm

I don't understand why this new law school had to be done in California instead of another legal market. I feel like they could have set something up in the Pacific NW or Florida since these are the only 2 populous areas that don't have a good law school. I'm aware that the Florida market is overflooded with lawyers and the Pacific NW has tons of overflow from all of the NoCal schools, but putting another law school in California just seems like such overkill unless it's charging under $15k tuition (since every CA law school is soooooo expensive).

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Dr. Dre
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Re: how do we feel about UC Irvine at this point?

Postby Dr. Dre » Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:02 pm

Well they promised UCI would be different type of law school, dedicated to public service and the socal community...



lol

pluto111
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Re: how do we feel about UC Irvine at this point?

Postby pluto111 » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:54 pm

Orange county does not have a good law school. And there's still a lawyer shortage in CA (and the rest of the country for that matter) since half of those appearing in California courts do not have the benefit of attorney representation. Those jobs just don't pay as much or garner the envy of TLS posters, but they certainly exist at the right price. I agree, though, that UCI, like almost every school in California, is only worth considering at this point if you get a substantial scholarship.




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