how do we feel about UC Irvine at this point? Forum

[wolfgang]

They get bashed a lot, especially during times around some snafu or another, but I haven't read much about them on here (or anywhere) in a while.

Now that the dust has settled, what does everyone think? They're aiming for the top 20, some people think they're a lock for t-20 and others think they're never even going to make it into the first tier.

Thoughts?

[kyle010723]

With reputation being 40% of the ranking, it will be hard for any new school to break into top 20. But their employment stat/LSAT/GPA should comfortably place them in T1 as soon as they get accredited.

[jingosaur]

It all depends on this most recent class's employment numbers. They've held onto a 165 median LSAT and a 3.5 GPA so I assume that they'll break into the first tier but with the Cali law market the way it is, top 20 isn't happening. The first classes numbers don't really count because there were only 56 grads, everyone had a full scolly, and that class's medians were much higher than these new classes' medians.

Once the new employment stats come up, more convos about UCI will start up.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Ranking is completely irrelevant outside of the top 18, so I couldn't give two shits where the formula monkeys at USNWR put them. With the exception of South Florida, SoCal is the most oversaturated region in the country, so I'm guessing employers won't give two shits about this school while they still have their pick of the UCLA/USC students.

[timbs4339]

Why do you care about USNWR?

The best thing to do is wait for employment stats from a full class of 180 or so students. Their biglaw placement will be a very strong tell.

[wolfgang]

thanks for all the replies so far.

Not advocating for either side, but:
I was under the impression that, in fact, the employment numbers from UCI are extremely misleading. The common consensus around here has been that UCI has been pulling a ton of strings, calling in favors, etc. to get such great placement, and that these strong employment numbers and the associated manipulation would last for a little while but then suddenly, sharply, drop off not many years down the road.
In my mind, this makes uci somewhat of a wild card. Why do you guys think that the employment numbers this year will be much more revealing?

But, as more people go through, there is more and more qualitative information about the school in general: more info about who goes to oci, how employers feel about the school, etc. that isn't necessarily dependent on data that can be manipulated. For example, I don't think it's the case the strong employment numbers this year necessarily indicate an elite school. Perhaps, but not necessarily... not when it seems at least not unreasonable that the data is or could be manipulated by pulled strings.

And, why do I care about the usnwr rankings? because I'm curious! How could one not be curious about what's happening? Here's a new law school trying to break into the t-20, I care about it for the same reason basketball fans care that the rockets are trying to build a championship team around lin, harden, and now howard. It's really, really interesting, fun to watch, VERY telling of the landscape in question in general, and could potentially affect the rest of the industry for a while to come. How can one be interested in law schools but not interested in the usnwr rankings? one can't really have a complete understanding of the industry without understanding these rankings, given the impact they seem to have. To dismiss them as not worthy of inquiry or attention is quite narrow minded in my opinion.

[zman]

The dean has much sway with judges and it seems they are able to get those good clerkships. If that continue that they might be at the USC/UCLA level but if it does not they are just another loyola,hastings, pepperdine,UC davis.

[Dr. Dre]

LOL. Just L-OH-FUCKING-L at the idea that UCI law school will make way into the US News rankings like dat snail from the movie Turbo made it into the racing rankings at the Indianapolis Racing Competition.

The inaugurating class got free tuition, the class after got 50% discount, and the class after that one got 33%.

You can bring up LST and point at the "elite" placement numbers, the federal clerkship rates, and the "Tier 1" (lol) medians...

But do you think this is the result of the prestige the name UCI bears? Or did this come about from the public interest promise Chemerinsky paraded in 2008 that riveted T14 quality students to matriculate in droves?

Those 56 students copped those full schollys, and with the help of Chemerinsky's fellatio-ing of judges and other employers, got good jobs.

Will this continue?

Orange County doesn't even consider UCI elite. The legal market gets inundated by the T14, USC, Vandy, and other graduates that have established networks. But UCI? LOL.

So, no. Chemerinsky will exhaust his network, UCI law will soon be fatigued of its money (which was greatly funded by billionaire Bren Evans), and UCI will remain TTT.

The board of regents, UCI, and all those enthusiasts promised a different type of law school. And what did we get? Another cesspool obsessed with the US News Rankings that doesn't bring anything new to the already tripe legal market in california.

[Nova]

IYSH

[jingosaur]

I agree with Dre that UCI isn't a "different kind of law school" in any way whatsoever.

I think their best chance at being top 30 would have been if they became a splitter friendly school on the west coast since Stanford, UC-Berk, UCLA, and USC are all tough on splitters. They could have probably gotten some good medians by accepting a bunch of 170/3.0s, giving fully scholly+stipend scholarships to people with good numbers, and then filling the rest of the class with 3.9/15x and 160s to get the GPA numbers up.

[timbs4339]

And, why do I care about the usnwr rankings? because I'm curious! How could one not be curious about what's happening? Here's a new law school trying to break into the t-20, I care about it for the same reason basketball fans care that the rockets are trying to build a championship team around lin, harden, and now howard. It's really, really interesting, fun to watch, VERY telling of the landscape in question in general, and could potentially affect the rest of the industry for a while to come. How can one be interested in law schools but not interested in the usnwr rankings? one can't really have a complete understanding of the industry without understanding these rankings, given the impact they seem to have. To dismiss them as not worthy of inquiry or attention is quite narrow minded in my opinion.

USNWR has been propping up a lot of mediocre schools for a long time, employers don't care about it outside of wide bands, and students shouldn't be using it to pick between schools now that LST is available. I'm not even sure how UCI going to change the law school industry, since the list of billionaires handing out $20 million to new law schools now that applications are in a crater can't be very long.

The difference between UCI and the Houston Rockets is that if the Rockets fail, Lin, Howard, and Harden go back to their penthouses, call up their agents, and start looking for the next team to pay them millions. If UCI becomes another UCH/UCD, then a whole lot of students are going to pay big money for jobs that don't pay enough to service that debt. The gamble is with the students livelihoods and futures here.

[mr.hands]

Ranking is completely irrelevant outside of the top 18, so I couldn't give two shits where the formula monkeys at USNWR put them. With the exception of South Florida, SoCal is the most oversaturated region in the country, so I'm guessing employers won't give two shits about this school while they still have their pick of the UCLA/USC students.

Where on earth did you come up with T18?

While 15-18 may be better than 19-140, no one cares about them being ranked in the top 18. They just don't matter

[sillymike]

USNWR has been propping up a lot of mediocre schools for a long time, employers don't care about it outside of wide bands, and students shouldn't be using it to pick between schools now that LST is available. I'm not even sure how UCI going to change the law school industry, since the list of billionaires handing out $20 million to new law schools now that applications are in a crater can't be very long.

The difference between UCI and the Houston Rockets is that if the Rockets fail, Lin, Howard, and Harden go back to their penthouses, call up their agents, and start looking for the next team to pay them millions. If UCI becomes another UCH/UCD, then a whole lot of students are going to pay big money for jobs that don't pay enough to service that debt. The gamble is with the students livelihoods and futures here.

^ RC fail. Dude wasn't ever sayin' usnwr is "useful", or that anyone "cares about it in narrow bands", "should be used to pick between law schools", or even comparing it to the Houston Rockets.

Looks to me like the point was that anyone who cares about seeing the complete picture of any industry, in this case law, needs to care about all aspects that affect said industry, regardless of whether or not the particular aspects in question are useful or their information valid. No question that the usnwr affects the industry, and where UCI lands in the rankings has the potential to change everything. Seems like a valid question to me!

Also, Irvine is a great school. Not Top 14 material, but not TTTT, either. Dre has some good points (which I also think agree with what the OP originally said, the OP seems pretty skeptical about Irvine) but take it with a grain of salt because he's pretty tough on southern california schools in general...

[californiauser]

TTT

[wolfgang]

I dunno... I agree that the rankings can, in a lot of ways, be split into t-14 and non-t-14 schools, there are a few schools that are considered "regional powerhouses" (a phrase I'm stealing from another thread), as opposed to just "regional schools".

Right? I feel like, just as the t-14 is split into some schools that are considerably better (hsy), "the rest" have a small group of schools that are also much better. UCLA, Vanderbilt, and Texas are much, much better than the rest of the non-t-14 schools, more so than minn, wusl, and usc. While I am not as harsh as saying that beyond the t-18 nothing matters, the gap between ucla/vandy/texas and the rest of the non-top-14 schools is pretty significant.

But then again, just because UCI might land there doesn't put it on par with these schools. At the very least, even if their employment numbers are contrived, and their standards stay high, and they really are in all ways on par with these schools, it will probably take time to solidify their place there enough to have the national reputation (note: different from national placement ability! it's just a fact that UCLA is a well regarded school nationally, much more so than, say, minnesota) at the same level as ucla/vandy/texas

[Dr. Dre]

they really are in all ways on par with these schools

NO.

uci isn't at the level of vandy, UT, ucla, WUSTL.

not even close bro

[californiauser]

I dunno... I agree that the rankings can, in a lot of ways, be split into t-14 and non-t-14 schools, there are a few schools that are considered "regional powerhouses" (a phrase I'm stealing from another thread), as opposed to just "regional schools".

Right? I feel like, just as the t-14 is split into some schools that are considerably better (hsy), "the rest" have a small group of schools that are also much better. UCLA, Vanderbilt, and Texas are much, much better than the rest of the non-t-14 schools, more so than minn, wusl, and usc. While I am not as harsh as saying that beyond the t-18 nothing matters, the gap between ucla/vandy/texas and the rest of the non-top-14 schools is pretty significant.

But then again, just because UCI might land there doesn't put it on par with these schools. At the very least, even if their employment numbers are contrived, and their standards stay high, and they really are in all ways on par with these schools, it will probably take time to solidify their place there enough to have the national reputation (note: different from national placement ability! it's just a fact that UCLA is a well regarded school nationally, much more so than, say, minnesota) at the same level as ucla/vandy/texas

Uncalled for UCLA trolling.

[Nova]

Clearly anti USC trolling

[wolfgang]

no, man, you're misinterpreting.

I was saying "in the hypothetical event that they break the top 18, keep their standards high, keep their medians up, get great faculty, etc, etc, EVEN if they do that and are quantitatively (medians, employment, etc) on par with these schools, they're still going to be something positive missing that these others have".

The "they really are on par with these schools" was part of the HYPOTHETICAL, the fulfillment of which STILL wouldn't put them in the same class as those others.

Also, @californiauser: doesn't have to be UCLA. Vanderbilt and texas, who I mentioned all together many times until I got lazy and didn't want to type them all, are well-regarded schools nationally. Why this doesn't translate to national hiring doesn't quite make sense to me but the fact is that these three schools are all great schools, and for some reason seem to be more highly regarded nationally than the rest of the top 20 AND the rest of the first tier.

If I'm wrong, tell me why I'm wrong, but don't take the ONE time where i only mention one school as an example and forget about the other THREE times that I used all three schools together to make a point.

Unless that was a joke. I can never tell with TLS... if i missed the humor, so sorry man!


edit: more likely to be humor now that I'm noticing that nobody called me out for anti-minnesota trolling, which would have been much easier to do, given the post...

[PDaddy]

they really are in all ways on par with these schools

NO.

uci isn't at the level of vandy, UT, ucla, WUSTL.

not even close bro

You need to RE-READ WHAT HE WROTE ABOVE. You missed!! He said "...even if..." i.e. a hypo given for argument's sake. He did not opine that UCI was on par with UCLA, etc.

It does strike me as odd that people speculate so wildly on UCI Law's future - or downgrade it - when UCI's academic reputation overall (UG, grad schools, research, etc.) is actually quite strong. NYU quickly rose through the ranks to become a top-6 law school. Nobody saw that coming, either.

In the end nobody knows what will happen with UCI. Any extrapolations or guesses, no matter how "educated" they appear to be, are really just ass-talk. I would go to UCI in a heartbeat if I was applying now, and it has many advantages over UCLA/USC. For one, it is new, and it has taken a unique approach to educating its students. I know a UCI 1L who says she wouldn't go to UCLA or USC (once her top choices) for all of the money in the world if she could choose again.

If you don't go to school at UCI Law you really can't judge it.

[Dr. Dre]

there is no T18, bro

[Nova]

T20 is not a real thing either

[wolfgang]

yeah... the top-20 thing always confused me a little.

I gather that AROUND the 20th slot is where the rankings TEND to stabilize a little, in that schools rise to #21 and then fall to #50 and then rise to #30 or whatever (hyperbole) fairly regularly, but the top 20-ish has been relatively stable, more so than the rest, and it's a nice round number... so, t-20!

but yeah. confusing. Not that i'd be sad with a seat at a top 20...

[MormonChristian]

They get bashed a lot, especially during times around some snafu or another, but I haven't read much about them on here (or anywhere) in a while.

Now that the dust has settled, what does everyone think? They're aiming for the top 20, some people think they're a lock for t-20 and others think they're never even going to make it into the first tier.

Thoughts?

I met with Chemerinsky after a CLE and he talked for an hour about the "vision" of Irvine. He said their aim is top 30, they are initially fine with top 40.
He said they were going to have to open the flood gates to more students because they can't make enough money with such low enrollment. In fact he says he and other faculty have to teach undergraduate classes to help make ends meet.
He says he will be hiring a lot of new faculty but didn't know if the faculty would be adjuncts or not.
He also said their deep pocket donors want a return on their investment and they want it sooner than later. I am not exactly sure what that means.

[Dr. Dre]

I am not exactly sure what that means.

it means uci is fucked