GW v UCI

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GW v UCI

GW
15
56%
UCI
12
44%
 
Total votes: 27

sabza
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GW v UCI

Postby sabza » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:37 am

Hey guys! I need a little help deciding between GW and UCI. I was all set to go to UCI because I had a better scholarship offer and I had a place to live all lined up...then my house fell through and GW matched my scholly.

I'm still leaning toward UCI because of the small classes, great professors, and proximity to family (currently living in AZ).

I'm not sure what kind of law I would like to practice. As of now, I am thinking something with international human rights, but I'm afraid that's too idealistic and naive so I can't really bank on that.

I know there are great things about both schools. I would really appreciate input from you all on which you would prefer.

BigZuck
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Re: GW v UCI

Postby BigZuck » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:42 am

You need to do all of this first viewtopic.php?f=1&t=206299

Correct answer is probably "Neither, retake" unless these schools are for cheap and you are ok with the fact that you will never get a job as a human rights lawyer. Just getting a job as a lawyer period would be a solid accomplishment from either of these schools.

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jbagelboy
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Re: GW v UCI

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:43 am

What is it with the late game int'l human rights parade?

We need 1) total CoA at both schools; 2) how you will be financing that CoA; 3) your LSAC GPA/LSAT; 3) where you want to practice before anyone can give you any information whatsoever

sabza
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Re: GW v UCI

Postby sabza » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:53 am

Would love to retake but can't. Right now, I'm debt free. My dad has agreed to finance either school. However, he is sooooo opposed to a year off. It doesn't make sense to me at all. I didn't do a CoA breakdown, because there will be no difference for me. So assume they cost the same amount to attend.

I'm WL at UT and Cornell. Hopefully I get one of those, but otherwise, these are my options.

I'm not sure where I would like to practice, but would like to keep my options open. To answer the 'why international human rights' question, it's because it's what I enjoy, and what my background is. I have spent 3 years working in South Africa with children with HIV and getting people housing subsidies from the government.

My ugpa is 3.77, however I transferred and my lsac gpa is only 3.3. I had a REALLY bad start, then left for Africa, then came back and finished well. My LSAT is 166.

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jbagelboy
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Re: GW v UCI

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:15 pm

I think George Washington would be the better choice all things considered between the two.

Tell your father to take a look at this site. Tell him he is limiting you and your professional advancement by forcing you into these choices. I know its a tough conversation since he is paying for your life, but by forcing you to attend one of these schools, he is stunting your goals. There is no rational basis for attending law school next year rather than the following year.

Just tell him to browse this website, lawschooltransparency, and to read Paul Campos. Seriously -- even going to Cornell or any T13 school would give you such a better chance at what you are looking for, and taking a year off is almost always the right decision.

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MyNameIsFlynn!
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Re: GW v UCI

Postby MyNameIsFlynn! » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:16 pm

you're the poster child for retake

if your dad is paying, don't waste his money on a TT. All you need is an LSAT good enough to get you into a T14

no downside. worst case, you score lower, have the same options but a year of WE that makes you more attractive to employers

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twenty
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Re: GW v UCI

Postby twenty » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:23 pm

A few more points would put you in NU/ED UVA territory if nothing else. NYU's in the cards, too.

You're a big kid now, have the conversation with your dad. Have him realize that your chances of getting a decent job almost double coming out of UVA/NU than they do from UCI/GWU.

And for the love of God, retake.

Big Dog
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Re: GW v UCI

Postby Big Dog » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:25 pm

I'd vote for retake, UCI, or one of the 'Zonas.

International human rights is just not happening from either school. Don't even think about it.

The plus about Irvine is that is closer to home, but chances of landing a job in AZ are slim.

timbs4339
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Re: GW v UCI

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:30 pm

Your dad is not going to not pay for school if you sit out, retake, and get those extra few points you need to get into a T13. Worst case scenario you pick up a full-ride somewhere with your current numbers and have the same chance of getting "international human rights law" from that schools as GW/UCI, which is to say 1%.

Best or above average scenario is you get into a T13 and your job opportunities open up immensely. You might actually be able to snag an international HR law job out of law school.

It's a generational thing that Boomers don't intuitively understand because delaying grad school meant something different back then. You really need to convince him that you aren't taking a year off because you want to do meth and follow some band around. You're actually doing it for the "right" reasons.
Last edited by timbs4339 on Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BigZuck
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Re: GW v UCI

Postby BigZuck » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:32 pm

Your gpa is a 3.77 but you want to roll with a 166? Unacceptable. Tell your dad that BigZuck said you can't do that. If he has a problem with that then he can message me.

But seriously, it is frightening to me to think that there are rich parents in this world who are willing to throw hundreds of thousands of dollars at so-so law schools but they refuse to allow their children to maximize their potential. Your father is literally harming the trajectory of your entire career by being so myopic.

Tell him BigZuck said to stop being myopic. Also, retake the damn LSAT.

One other thing is you might want to do some more research on law school in general. By all means apply to tons of schools for scholarship negotiation purposes. But I can't think of a single person for whom seriously considering UT, UCI, and GWU is a good option. These are schools scattered about the country and I doubt you have ties to all the markets they place into. Not only that but I doubt they have much of any international prestige or placement ability. Getting into UT does not equal just go because its so much better than these schools. UT is really only good for getting a job as a lawyer in Texas. For the stuff you want to do you really need to find a way into Harvard (maybe Yale or Stanford if they like your softs). And for that you need like 10 more points on the LSAT.

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Winston1984
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Re: GW v UCI

Postby Winston1984 » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:35 pm

BigZuck wrote:Your gpa is a 3.77 but you want to roll with a 166? Unacceptable. Tell your dad that BigZuck said you can't do that. If he has a problem with that then he can message me.

But seriously, it is frightening to me to think that there are rich parents in this world who are willing to throw hundreds of thousands of dollars at so-so law schools but they refuse to allow their children to maximize their potential. Your father is literally harming the trajectory of your entire career by being so myopic.

Tell him BigZuck said to stop being myopic. Also, retake the damn LSAT.

One other thing is you might want to do some more research on law school in general. By all means apply to tons of schools for scholarship negotiation purposes. But I can't think of a single person for whom seriously considering UT, UCI, and GWU is a good option. These are schools scattered about the country and I doubt you have ties to all the markets they place into. Not only that but I doubt they have much of any international prestige or placement ability. Getting into UT does not equal just go because its so much better than these schools. UT is really only good for getting a job as a lawyer in Texas. For the stuff you want to do you really need to find a way into Harvard (maybe Yale or Stanford if they like your softs). And for that you need like 10 more points on the LSAT.


His LSAC gpa is 3.3 so the holy trinity is out.

NanaP
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Re: GW v UCI

Postby NanaP » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:36 pm

why didn't you apply to USC or UCLA

I'd go with GW if you dad is paying

BigZuck
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Re: GW v UCI

Postby BigZuck » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:37 pm

Winston1984 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Your gpa is a 3.77 but you want to roll with a 166? Unacceptable. Tell your dad that BigZuck said you can't do that. If he has a problem with that then he can message me.

But seriously, it is frightening to me to think that there are rich parents in this world who are willing to throw hundreds of thousands of dollars at so-so law schools but they refuse to allow their children to maximize their potential. Your father is literally harming the trajectory of your entire career by being so myopic.

Tell him BigZuck said to stop being myopic. Also, retake the damn LSAT.

One other thing is you might want to do some more research on law school in general. By all means apply to tons of schools for scholarship negotiation purposes. But I can't think of a single person for whom seriously considering UT, UCI, and GWU is a good option. These are schools scattered about the country and I doubt you have ties to all the markets they place into. Not only that but I doubt they have much of any international prestige or placement ability. Getting into UT does not equal just go because its so much better than these schools. UT is really only good for getting a job as a lawyer in Texas. For the stuff you want to do you really need to find a way into Harvard (maybe Yale or Stanford if they like your softs). And for that you need like 10 more points on the LSAT.


His LSAC gpa is 3.3 so the holy trinity is out.


Oh crap, you're right, I missed that.

Well then since dad is paying, retake ED UVA

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: GW v UCI

Postby TheSpanishMain » Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:54 pm

BigZuck wrote:Just getting a job as a lawyer period would be a solid accomplishment from either of these schools.


This might be a tiny bit over the top, don't you think? GW at sticker would be dumb, and way too much of their employment score depends on school funded positions, but you make it sound like Cooley or Albany or something.

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Robespierre
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Re: GW v UCI

Postby Robespierre » Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:59 pm

Best course of action is to get yourself some work experience, retake the LSAT during that time, and score 170 or above. That would make you a good candidate for Northwestern, Georgetown or UVa (ED only).

If you absolutely refuse to do the smart thing, go with GW. The only way you're getting "international human rights" (if that's even a thing) from GW or UCI is by a combination of internships and networking. GW, in Washington, D.C., is the better place to do that.

BigZuck
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Re: GW v UCI

Postby BigZuck » Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:32 pm

TheSpanishMain wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Just getting a job as a lawyer period would be a solid accomplishment from either of these schools.


This might be a tiny bit over the top, don't you think? GW at sticker would be dumb, and way too much of their employment score depends on school funded positions, but you make it sound like Cooley or Albany or something.


20% of the class not becoming a lawyer at all 9 months out, then a little over 20% more on the school-funded program which we don't know much about but most suspect this is a bad thing to be on. Only 60% of the class is becoming a non-school funded lawyer within 9 months, I would say that being in that 60% would be a solid accomplishment. Afterall, there's a 40% chance you won't be.

Not going to touch UCI.

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radar714
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Re: GW v UCI

Postby radar714 » Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:24 pm

hey man, gl with your choice, most of the advice in here is solid. I just wanted to touch on the whole "I should take a year off but my dad doesn't want me to" thing, cuz I had to deal with that BS. Its a fucking shitty convo to have esp b/c they get to hold the "i'm paying for it" over your head, but if you think you can improve on the LSAT (and honestly most people can with diligent study), you gotta do it. Esp with your career goals.

I still remember the screaming match that ensued when I had this convo with my dad. Ultimately, i convinced him because of the sheer rationality of my argument. I was in at Loyola LA with 96k w/ a 162, and I told him my optimistic and pessimistic predictions of my ability to improve my LSAT and the affects it would have on my acceptances. Most parents don't get how number driven this shit is, especially because "MY child is the unique one! He/she did all these extra curriculars and won this award in 6th grade" but that shit doesn't matter at all (as I'm sure you've noticed).

I told him point blank, at worst I'd get a 165 and at best a 172, and that would mean the difference (AT A MINIMUM) between a full-ride at Loyola (~50k), and at best attending a top 5 school. He tried arguing and pulling out all the stops (like you just want to stay with your GF, you want to just party with your friends, you want to just delay law school, fucking everything) but I just kept repeating those facts. You simply can't argue with the fact that the LSAT is the most important factor in your admissions (unless you're URM), and simply answering a few more questions right could either 1) get you into a much better school, or 2) save him money by going to the same or similarly ranked school for tens of thousands of dollars less. You also should enlighten him regarding how hiring out of LS is nothing like UG and all that matters is your grades/school you attended, and despite your parent's perceptions of your level of intelligence, its the first time you'll be dealing with a strict curve and theres only 1 fucking test.

As much as its gonna suck getting into that argument, its worth it for your future. Ask yourself, would you rather cause some temporary conflict for the potential to SIGNIFICANTLY improve your career prospects and future, or would you rather placate your father and potentially surrender the opportunity to pursue your passions in international human rights?

FWIW, I got a 166 and am going to USC now, and I literally could not be happier with my decision. Do the right thing.

timbs4339
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Re: GW v UCI

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:39 pm

radar714 wrote:hey man, gl with your choice, most of the advice in here is solid. I just wanted to touch on the whole "I should take a year off but my dad doesn't want me to" thing, cuz I had to deal with that BS. Its a fucking shitty convo to have esp b/c they get to hold the "i'm paying for it" over your head, but if you think you can improve on the LSAT (and honestly most people can with diligent study), you gotta do it. Esp with your career goals.

I still remember the screaming match that ensued when I had this convo with my dad. Ultimately, i convinced him because of the sheer rationality of my argument. I was in at Loyola LA with 96k w/ a 162, and I told him my optimistic and pessimistic predictions of my ability to improve my LSAT and the affects it would have on my acceptances. Most parents don't get how number driven this shit is, especially because "MY child is the unique one! He/she did all these extra curriculars and won this award in 6th grade" but that shit doesn't matter at all (as I'm sure you've noticed).

I told him point blank, at worst I'd get a 165 and at best a 172, and that would mean the difference (AT A MINIMUM) between a full-ride at Loyola (~50k), and at best attending a top 5 school. He tried arguing and pulling out all the stops (like you just want to stay with your GF, you want to just party with your friends, you want to just delay law school, fucking everything) but I just kept repeating those facts. You simply can't argue with the fact that the LSAT is the most important factor in your admissions (unless you're URM), and simply answering a few more questions right could either 1) get you into a much better school, or 2) save him money by going to the same or similarly ranked school for tens of thousands of dollars less. You also should enlighten him regarding how hiring out of LS is nothing like UG and all that matters is your grades/school you attended, and despite your parent's perceptions of your level of intelligence, its the first time you'll be dealing with a strict curve and theres only 1 fucking test.

As much as its gonna suck getting into that argument, its worth it for your future. Ask yourself, would you rather cause some temporary conflict for the potential to SIGNIFICANTLY improve your career prospects and future, or would you rather placate your father and potentially surrender the opportunity to pursue your passions in international human rights?

FWIW, I got a 166 and am going to USC now, and I literally could not be happier with my decision. Do the right thing.


Speaketh the truth.

There's no downside for your father. He can brag to his friends about the awesome law school you get into or you'll save him tens of thousands. Boomeritis is a terrible condition, but together you guys can beat it.

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BmoreOrLess
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Re: GW v UCI

Postby BmoreOrLess » Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:43 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
radar714 wrote:hey man, gl with your choice, most of the advice in here is solid. I just wanted to touch on the whole "I should take a year off but my dad doesn't want me to" thing, cuz I had to deal with that BS. Its a fucking shitty convo to have esp b/c they get to hold the "i'm paying for it" over your head, but if you think you can improve on the LSAT (and honestly most people can with diligent study), you gotta do it. Esp with your career goals.

I still remember the screaming match that ensued when I had this convo with my dad. Ultimately, i convinced him because of the sheer rationality of my argument. I was in at Loyola LA with 96k w/ a 162, and I told him my optimistic and pessimistic predictions of my ability to improve my LSAT and the affects it would have on my acceptances. Most parents don't get how number driven this shit is, especially because "MY child is the unique one! He/she did all these extra curriculars and won this award in 6th grade" but that shit doesn't matter at all (as I'm sure you've noticed).

I told him point blank, at worst I'd get a 165 and at best a 172, and that would mean the difference (AT A MINIMUM) between a full-ride at Loyola (~50k), and at best attending a top 5 school. He tried arguing and pulling out all the stops (like you just want to stay with your GF, you want to just party with your friends, you want to just delay law school, fucking everything) but I just kept repeating those facts. You simply can't argue with the fact that the LSAT is the most important factor in your admissions (unless you're URM), and simply answering a few more questions right could either 1) get you into a much better school, or 2) save him money by going to the same or similarly ranked school for tens of thousands of dollars less. You also should enlighten him regarding how hiring out of LS is nothing like UG and all that matters is your grades/school you attended, and despite your parent's perceptions of your level of intelligence, its the first time you'll be dealing with a strict curve and theres only 1 fucking test.

As much as its gonna suck getting into that argument, its worth it for your future. Ask yourself, would you rather cause some temporary conflict for the potential to SIGNIFICANTLY improve your career prospects and future, or would you rather placate your father and potentially surrender the opportunity to pursue your passions in international human rights?

FWIW, I got a 166 and am going to USC now, and I literally could not be happier with my decision. Do the right thing.


Speaketh the truth.

There's no downside for your father. He can brag to his friends about the awesome law school you get into or you'll save him tens of thousands. Boomeritis is a terrible condition, but together you guys can beat it.


He will likely still do this even if you don't go. My parents sure as shit still do.

drive4showLSAT4dough
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Re: GW v UCI

Postby drive4showLSAT4dough » Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:14 pm

RETAKE. Have the convo with your dad. Bottom line is this: he is willing to finance your legal education because he believes it will help you on the path of your legal career. You need to show him why an LSAT retake is a necessary component of building your successful legal career.

My experience. Had at 164/3.5 with 1 year work experience. Didn't want to retake. TLS convinced me to retake. Then, I took the data and the argument to my parents and explained the likely cost and likely employment outcomes assuming median grades at the schools I could expect to be admitted to. Then, I showed them the likely cost and likely employment outcomes assuming median grades at the schools I could expect to be admitted to if I retook and got ~170 (as I believed I could). Eventually, they came to support my decision to retake.

My parents still can't get over how fucking right I was. I got a 169 and I'm going to Duke this fall with $$. You can do better than that.

I have a long way to go in this race, but at least the retake prevented me from shooting myself in the foot on my first few steps out of the gate.

sabza
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Re: GW v UCI

Postby sabza » Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:45 pm

I appreciate all of your insights. Unfortunately, I've had this conversation with my dad too many times to count. He went to Stanford law, so, idk he feels he understands and yet doesn't see the value.

His concern is that I am 25 (just graduated but had done extensive volunteer work), and have not had a real paying job. He thinks it's ridiculous and that I need to just move forward and be finished with school. I don't currently have a job or have a job lined up...if I did I would just take the year off anyway. The fact that I don't means I don't have money for things like rent if he decides he's not helping.

I know that it sounds like I'm a whiny rich kid who needs to learn how the real world works, but I don't even have money to live on while looking for a job.
Last edited by sabza on Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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twenty
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Re: GW v UCI

Postby twenty » Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:55 pm

My favorite retake story is of that one guy who was posting on TLS who would be living out of his car for a year if he wanted to retake and reapply.

Yup.

Retake, reapply.

timbs4339
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Re: GW v UCI

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:01 pm

sabza wrote:I appreciate all of your insights. Unfortunately, I've had this conversation with my dad too many times to count. He went to Stanford law, so, idk he feels he understands and yet doesn't see the value.

His concern is that I am 25 (just graduated but had 3 years volunteer work in Africa), and have not had a real paying job. He thinks it's ridiculous and that I need to just move forward and be finished with school. I don't currently have a job or have a job lined up...if I did I would just take the year off anyway. The fact that I don't means I don't have money for things like rent if he decides he's not helping.

I know that it sounds like I'm a whiny rich kid who needs to learn how the real world works, but I don't even have money to live on while looking for a job.


Get a job to show him that you mean srs business. Retake. Bring a T13 acceptance to him and then see how he feels. Or screw him and go to another school with money. I'm not sure how 3 years volunteer work in Africa isn't something.

I don't think he really understands. People from top schools who graduated 30 years ago have a completely absurd view of the job market. He probably knows intuitively that you won't be a SCOTUS justice or President, but has no idea how completely skewed towards elite schools that job market has gotten. Or he doesn't know that human rights law is more selective than biglaw.

So many people in our generation have thought "I need to just move forward and be finished with school" for various reasons, and that has led them to take on huge debt to go to questionable schools. You don't have the former, but the latter is reason enough especially with your extremely narrow focus.

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Motivator9
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Re: GW v UCI

Postby Motivator9 » Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:10 pm

Dang, so basically you have a full ride to wherever you decide to go thanks to your Dad. Why not retake and ED at CCN. Retake!

BigZuck
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Re: GW v UCI

Postby BigZuck » Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:32 pm

sabza wrote:I appreciate all of your insights. Unfortunately, I've had this conversation with my dad too many times to count. He went to Stanford law, so, idk he feels he understands and yet doesn't see the value.

His concern is that I am 25 (just graduated but had 3 years volunteer work in Africa), and have not had a real paying job. He thinks it's ridiculous and that I need to just move forward and be finished with school. I don't currently have a job or have a job lined up...if I did I would just take the year off anyway. The fact that I don't means I don't have money for things like rent if he decides he's not helping.

I know that it sounds like I'm a whiny rich kid who needs to learn how the real world works, but I don't even have money to live on while looking for a job.


Retake




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