Texas $$ vs. NYU Sticker

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Texas $$ vs. NYU Sticker

TEXAS
31
53%
NYU
28
47%
 
Total votes: 59

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PunkedbyReality
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Texas $$ vs. NYU Sticker

Postby PunkedbyReality » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:43 pm

Texas
18K in scholarships and aid with in-state tuition; COA=117K

NYU
Just got in off wait-list, but probably no money. COA=280K

Other considerations:
I am not someone who is dead set on BigLaw. In fact, personally, I think I would love to do something public-minded. At Texas, there isn't much of a culture for this. At NYU, there's one of the best cultures for this kind of law. This is why I like NYU and its LRAP program. If I go sticker, I will probably do LRAP to take care of the 280K of debt and be out from under it after 10 years. If I decide I want to do BigLaw, it would take me 6 years to pay it off if I'm making 160K, putting 60K per year towards the debt.

But I'm really not sure. Where would you go? And anyone from NYU who could provide any insight on this, specifically on the LRAP program and going at sticker, would be really appreciated. Thank you.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Texas $$ vs. NYU Sticker

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:09 pm

Congrats on NYU.

To me this comes down entirely to where you want to work: Texas/neighboring southern states or the rest of the country and other major legal markets. If you want to work in TX, the "student culture" of UT is irrelevant: you will find public interest jobs throughout texas w/ low debt. Going $290K in debt for an nYU degree to get the same texas PI job would be a travesty.

If you want to work in NYC, CA, ect. in either biglaw or public interest, im leaning NYU here.

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PunkedbyReality
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Re: Texas $$ vs. NYU Sticker

Postby PunkedbyReality » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:14 pm

jbagelboy wrote:Congrats on NYU.

To me this comes down entirely to where you want to work: Texas/neighboring southern states or the rest of the country and other major legal markets. If you want to work in TX, the "student culture" of UT is irrelevant: you will find public interest jobs throughout texas w/ low debt. Going $290K in debt for an nYU degree to get the same texas PI job would be a travesty.

If you want to work in NYC, CA, ect. in either biglaw or public interest, im leaning NYU here.


Yeah, that probably is the main concern. If I were to do NYU, I probably wouldn't end up back in Texas. It would more likely be San Fran, NYC, or DC.

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PunkedbyReality
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Re: Texas $$ vs. NYU Sticker

Postby PunkedbyReality » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:14 pm

jbagelboy wrote:Congrats on NYU.

To me this comes down entirely to where you want to work: Texas/neighboring southern states or the rest of the country and other major legal markets. If you want to work in TX, the "student culture" of UT is irrelevant: you will find public interest jobs throughout texas w/ low debt. Going $290K in debt for an nYU degree to get the same texas PI job would be a travesty.

If you want to work in NYC, CA, ect. in either biglaw or public interest, im leaning NYU here.


And thank you!

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Ex Cearulo
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Re: Texas $$ vs. NYU Sticker

Postby Ex Cearulo » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:23 pm

PunkedbyReality wrote:Texas
18K in scholarships and aid with in-state tuition; COA=117K

NYU
Just got in off wait-list, but probably no money. COA=280K

Other considerations:
I am not someone who is dead set on BigLaw. In fact, personally, I think I would love to do something public-minded. At Texas, there isn't much of a culture for this. At NYU, there's one of the best cultures for this kind of law. This is why I like NYU and its LRAP program. If I go sticker, I will probably do LRAP to take care of the 280K of debt and be out from under it after 10 years. If I decide I want to do BigLaw, it would take me 6 years to pay it off if I'm making 160K, putting 60K per year towards the debt.

But I'm really not sure. Where would you go? And anyone from NYU who could provide any insight on this, specifically on the LRAP program and going at sticker, would be really appreciated. Thank you.


How badly do you want to do public interest? Take this from someone who incurred a 10-year service commitment for going to pilot training (as opposed to a 4-year commitment for most everyone else)...10 years is a long time. You'd be surprised how much you and your hopes, dreams, plans, etc can change in a decade. I'm not saying choose one school over the other, because I don't know enough about you and your goals. Just don't treat lightly 10 years in public interest to pay off $280k. I understand this isn't necessarily an either/or situation, just trying to offer some perspective.

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PunkedbyReality
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Re: Texas $$ vs. NYU Sticker

Postby PunkedbyReality » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:26 pm

HawgDriver wrote:
PunkedbyReality wrote:Texas
18K in scholarships and aid with in-state tuition; COA=117K

NYU
Just got in off wait-list, but probably no money. COA=280K

Other considerations:
I am not someone who is dead set on BigLaw. In fact, personally, I think I would love to do something public-minded. At Texas, there isn't much of a culture for this. At NYU, there's one of the best cultures for this kind of law. This is why I like NYU and its LRAP program. If I go sticker, I will probably do LRAP to take care of the 280K of debt and be out from under it after 10 years. If I decide I want to do BigLaw, it would take me 6 years to pay it off if I'm making 160K, putting 60K per year towards the debt.

But I'm really not sure. Where would you go? And anyone from NYU who could provide any insight on this, specifically on the LRAP program and going at sticker, would be really appreciated. Thank you.


How badly do you want to do public interest? Take this from someone who incurred a 10-year service commitment for going to pilot training (as opposed to a 4-year commitment for most everyone else)...10 years is a long time. You'd be surprised how much you and your hopes, dreams, plans, etc can change in a decade. I'm not saying choose one school over the other, because I don't know enough about you and your goals. Just don't treat lightly 10 years in public interest to pay off $280k. I understand this isn't necessarily an either/or situation, just trying to offer some perspective.


This is why I hesitate. 10 years from early twenties to early thirties is big. And thank you.

Ti Malice
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Re: Texas $$ vs. NYU Sticker

Postby Ti Malice » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:38 pm

You always post the most difficult (for me) "choosing" threads. :lol:

Job opportunities and debt aside, it's undoubtedly true that NYU has a stronger PI culture than Texas, but I know a few PI lawyers who went to UT and had terrific experiences in the clinics they enrolled in. UT also has quite a significant number of PI-oriented clinics out of 17 clinics in total, according to their website: http://www.utexas.edu/law/academics/. NYU definitely has more offerings (39 total clinics, I think), more long-term clinical professors, and significantly stronger institutional support for PI. I just don't think UT is a total desert in this regard.

As for COA at NYU, with the latest bump in tuition, you're actually looking at $300K at repayment if you're debt-financing everything. I really struggle to tell someone to take on $300K of non-dischargeable debt at anywhere other than YHS. NYU does have a good LRAP, but its entry requirement is not as forgiving as those of YHSCC. More precisely, there's no early date by which you have to enter the program, but the clock starts ticking on your 10-year participation window eight months after graduation, regardless of whether or not you're in the program at that time. You get a total of 24 months of possible extensions for certain circumstances, at the discretion of the program admin. PI hiring is very weak these days, so this could pose problems. And, of course, if you're not doing PI, then you have enormous debt and enormous monthly loan payments to take care of all by yourself. But then it's also true that your odds of having desirable employment options are much stronger out of NYU than they are from Texas.

Texas at that COA is a fairly low-risk proposition -- though the lower risk obviously comes with much lower probabilities of desirable employment and much more limited geographic mobility. But that debt total is survivable even without BigLaw. On the other hand, don't count on UT's LRAP to be of much help at all. You receive no benefits with an income above $50K, and eligibility terminates permanently if you leave eligible employment (with discretionary exceptions for layoffs).

Tough call. Your geographic preferences for work are something you haven't mentioned. Not knowing those, I would probably go with NYU and just hope not to face financial ruin down the road.

maximator
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Re: Texas $$ vs. NYU Sticker

Postby maximator » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:47 pm

PunkedbyReality wrote:Yeah, that probably is the main concern. If I were to do NYU, I probably wouldn't end up back in Texas. It would more likely be San Fran, NYC, or DC.


If you aren't okay with working in Texas, you probably shouldn't go to UT. That being said, shelling out 280k seems like absolute insanity to me. I feel like the prevailing wisdom on this site is (was?) that if you want to do public interest, minimize your debt and go to school in the region you want to work. A big part of getting a public interest job is getting out there, interning, and getting involved in the community. Obviously that wouldn't be a problem if you want to work in NYC. But I'd imagine getting a public interest job in SF or DC might be more challenging, even from NYU. For that matter, getting any public interest job isn't exactly easy right now.

And look, NYU isn't a terrible option because of the LRAP. But what happens if you hate public interest work? Heck, what if you hate being a lawyer? My advice would be to wait it out a year and try to get something cheaper if you are set on public interest.

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sinfiery
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Re: Texas $$ vs. NYU Sticker

Postby sinfiery » Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:11 am

Based on my preliminary research, NYU can definitely get you back to Texas with ties if you so desire.


Considering your goals, where you want to work is very important, as mentioned.


Given the massive difference in debt, I would take UT for Texas and NYU otherwise..


$300,000 COA for NYU is...massive. Be ready to spend the next 20 years of your life on PAYE as it is a very likely possibility if you attend NYU.

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jingosaur
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Re: Texas $$ vs. NYU Sticker

Postby jingosaur » Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:41 am

I'm not 100% sure on if this is right for the 10 year PI debt forgiveness, but I'm pretty sure that any of the debt forgiven is reported as income to the IRS. So after your 10 year "debt forgiveness", you'll still owe ballpark 90k in taxes to the IRS. I know that this is how it works for IBR, but the 10-year forgiveness may be different.

It's pretty cool that you want to use your degree to actually do something good for the world, but just the thought of taking out $300k to get a $35k a year job sounds absolutely insane on the surface.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Texas $$ vs. NYU Sticker

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:06 am

goldbh7 wrote:I'm not 100% sure on if this is right for the 10 year PI debt forgiveness, but I'm pretty sure that any of the debt forgiven is reported as income to the IRS. So after your 10 year "debt forgiveness", you'll still owe ballpark 90k in taxes to the IRS. I know that this is how it works for IBR, but the 10-year forgiveness may be different.

It's pretty cool that you want to use your degree to actually do something good for the world, but just the thought of taking out $300k to get a $35k a year job sounds absolutely insane on the surface.

10 year PSLF is not taxable.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Texas $$ vs. NYU Sticker

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:28 am

PunkedbyReality wrote:not someone who is dead set on BigLaw
PunkedbyReality wrote:I think I would love to do something public-minded
PunkedbyReality wrote: I will probably do LRAP
PunkedbyReality wrote:If I decide I want to do BigLaw

Honestly, you don't sound sufficiently convinced you want to do public interest work. Probably half of all 1Ls, especially at a school like NYU, come in vaguely thinking they might do public interest work. 95% of the ones who don't have a specific goal in mind end up going to biglaw. It's just much safer. If you don't know what exactly you want to do, and your options are "take this high paying job that is basically guaranteed before 2L year" or "wait two years, hope you figure out what you'd rather do, and then hope like hell you get one of the very few jobs that exist in that field," and you have close to $300,000 in debt... it's just hard to justify the second option.

I think you should make this decision under the assumption that you will not do LRAP.

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Devlin
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Re: Texas $$ vs. NYU Sticker

Postby Devlin » Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:58 pm

Since you are not quite sure where you interest lies I would go to the cheaper school.

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philosoraptor
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Re: Texas $$ vs. NYU Sticker

Postby philosoraptor » Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:22 pm

PunkedbyReality wrote:In fact, personally, I think I would love to do something public-minded. At Texas, there isn't much of a culture for this.
Actually, there are about a zillion public-service opportunities at Texas in what I thought was a very strong culture. If you're interested in public interest or government, it seems smart to keep your debt down.

fluffythepenguin
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Re: Texas $$ vs. NYU Sticker

Postby fluffythepenguin » Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:37 pm

With a cost of attending UT above 100k, I think the only way it makes sense to go there is if you want to gamble on biglaw and lower debt. PI from either NYU or UT with 300k and 120k of debt, respectively, are both going to need LRAP/PSLF anyways, so your take-home pay will be comparable no matter which school you attend. Therefore, you might as well go to NYU.

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you'rethemannowdawg
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Re: Texas $$ vs. NYU Sticker

Postby you'rethemannowdawg » Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:50 pm

Devlin wrote:Since you are not quite sure where you interest lies I would go to the cheaper school.


+1

Banking on NYU's LRAP isn't a great idea unless you're absolutely sure PI is what you want to do.

Since the program is tied to IBR, there is the possibility that the interest on the loans from your massive cost of attendance will outpace your LRAP payments. If that happens, you will be locked into PI for 10 years unless you want to be several years out of law school with more debt than you started with.

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francesfarmer
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Re: Texas $$ vs. NYU Sticker

Postby francesfarmer » Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:31 pm

you'rethemannowdawg wrote:
Devlin wrote:Since you are not quite sure where you interest lies I would go to the cheaper school.


+1

Banking on NYU's LRAP isn't a great idea unless you're absolutely sure PI is what you want to do.

Since the program is tied to IBR, there is the possibility that the interest on the loans from your massive cost of attendance will outpace your LRAP payments. If that happens, you will be locked into PI for 10 years unless you want to be several years out of law school with more debt than you started with.

At sticker that is a guarantee.

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AreJay711
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Re: Texas $$ vs. NYU Sticker

Postby AreJay711 » Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:35 pm

sinfiery wrote:Based on my preliminary research, NYU can definitely get you back to Texas with ties if you so desire.


I'm not saying NYU is worth it at all, OP, but I second that NYU can take you back to Texas. At least the major cities, anyway.

crit_racer
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Re: Texas $$ vs. NYU Sticker

Postby crit_racer » Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:34 pm

OP, I think that UT is definitely the right move here.

1. 300k is a shit ton of debt. And committing to doing PI work for 10 years is, as others have mentioned, a very serious commitment. I'm not saying you're not dedicated to PI or anything like that, but a lot can happen in 10 years and you may not want your only way out of debt to require that kind of commitment.

2. UT is a fantastic school for PI. It may not have the reputation for it or a large contingent of students gunning for PI, but everyone I know here who has actually tried hard to pursue PI (and not just pursued it as a back up plan) has gotten good experience. UT is far and away the best law school in a state that has tons of needs in terms of immigration law, state policy work, environmental law, criminal defense, etc. There are tons of clinics you can do at UT and tons of resources to take advantage of. It may not be as big of a focus it is at UT, bug again everyone I know who is actually committed to doing PI work has found good opportunities here.

3. If you decide you don't want to do PI (not saying you will, but if you do...), then you'll be glad to have a smaller debt load when you enter private practice. Remember, there are lots of rewarding areas of law where you help people that aren just aren't the most lucrative. Going into wills & estates, family law, criminal defense, immigration law, etc can all be rewarding careers and, with a manageable debt load, are very feasible.

4. Austin kicks ass :)

Ti Malice
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Re: Texas $$ vs. NYU Sticker

Postby Ti Malice » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:31 am

Hmmm. I would probably vote for UT instead of NYU today...and then possibly lean back toward NYU tomorrow. Like I said, it's a tough call, and the polling shows it.

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Stanford4Me
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Re: Texas $$ vs. NYU Sticker

Postby Stanford4Me » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:46 am

2013 NYU graduate from Texas here. Final decision came down to Texas with $$$ and NYU with $$. Chose the latter. A few things to keep in mind--

If you work BigLaw and put 60k/yr to debt, remember to think about where you're living. After Federal, state, and city taxes in NYC you're bringing home $92k. It would be difficult to live off of $32k when you take into consideration cost of living. If you want to return to Texas and work Biglaw, that sort of pay schedule is more realistic, and you also have the benefit of going to a T10, which firms in Texas are heavily recruiting from.

Also, make sure you pay close attention to/ask plenty of questions about each school's LRAP program. I know nothing about the program at Texas (or if they have one) since I wasn't ever interested in PI. All I know is that NYU has a great program and a good community. As a previous poster already say, while community shouldn't be determinative it should definitely be a factor. I loved NYU and am going to miss the school/city a lot. Feel free to PM me if you have any further specific questions.

Also, I just realized I didn't give you an answer....

ETA: Also, don't underestimate the annoyance of debt even if you're able to get a job that allows you to repay that debt. I keep thinking to myself if I had gone to Texas I would've been able to buy a house upon graduation (every Texan's dream, right?).
Last edited by Stanford4Me on Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

Ti Malice
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Re: Texas $$ vs. NYU Sticker

Postby Ti Malice » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:51 am

Stanford4Me wrote:Also, make sure you pay close attention to/ask plenty of questions about each school's LRAP program. I know nothing about the program at Texas (or if they have one) since I wasn't ever interested in PI.


See my first post. UT has one, but it's very weak -- weak enough that it should basically be considered nonexistent.

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twenty
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Re: Texas $$ vs. NYU Sticker

Postby twenty » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:49 am

A very big part of me feels like you shouldn't be doing either. NYU at sticker is something you should really only be doing if you are absolutely 100% certain you want to do public interest. 100% certain looks like, "I'd rather not go to law school at all if I can't do xyz public interest law." Not just making the world a "better place", but having a legitimate desire to influence or be a part of some specific greater legal movement as a whole.

On the other hand, Texas with 117k COA seems like a lot. Assuming that's everything included, that's going to end up being around 1,450k a month in payments, or 17k+ a year. There are plenty, plenty of legal jobs that are not worth the "privilege" of paying 17k a year to do. Unfortunately, UT only places about a third of its class in either biglaw or federal clerkships, From UT, there is a 58% chance of getting a job that is honestly not worth the luxury of 17k/yr payments (ranging from public interest, which was easier to get at NYU, to unemployment, which is significantly harder to get from NYU.)

I'd take the year off. Go work for a year, maybe retake the LSAT, and come back next cycle. You should probably be retaking a 169 regardless, honestly.

Side note: what kind of money did you get from Vandy and UMich?

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twenty
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Re: Texas $$ vs. NYU Sticker

Postby twenty » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:53 am

I know nothing about the program at Texas (or if they have one) since I wasn't ever interested in PI.


If anyone else is interested, I'm going to be updating my LRAP post in the FAQ forum for UT, UCLA, Vandy and USC tomorrow afternoon.

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jingosaur
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Re: Texas $$ vs. NYU Sticker

Postby jingosaur » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:28 am

Oh, I didn't even realize the 169. I majored in Finance and have a similar GPA and from my research, I felt like retaking was literally the only option. I retook and scored a 170 (I'm going to take it a 3rd time) and that one point makes a world of a difference. That one extra point will get you into UVA and Penn and will give you a better shot at Columbia. If you have or can get a decent job that you can brag about at OCI and you have a retake left, doing the retake/reapply thing might help.




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