Washington & Lee vs. UMN Forum

[agni]

W&L offered 12k/year more in scholarship than UMN. Living expenses seem comparable.

1. Have no ties to Minnesota, very little in Virginia and will likely stay in the area of the school for employment & beyond.
2. Though I will live by myself in the first year, my family will join me soon after (spouse and two children).
3. Not considering retaking, took it twice, and my GPA is below 3.0 so I consider myself lucky.
4. WL requires 3.25 GPA, UMN 2.5 to continue receiving scholarships (guessing that I should be aiming higher than that anyway to have the degree worth something)

Factors that are making this a tough decision for me:

1. UMN has a much larger alumni base in Korea (where my spouse is from and where i have my second citizenship). While there is no immediate or future plan to move back there, it is a possibility.
2. Lived in DC before, so I can pretty much guess what to expect in terms of weather in W&L, while Minnesota scares me. Having young children, it being too cold for them to play outside the house means they'll be running around indoors...

and the question that is worth more than the two combined.

3. Money. Basically, is UMN worth the additional cost?

[Ti Malice]

We need all of the information contained in the post at the top of the page to provide you with worthwhile advice: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=206299

[Nova]

What is the total COA and total debt expected from each?

[nebula666]

What is the OVERALL COA? 12k more / year means nothing if it's 200k vs 188k. Neither of these schools are worth over $75k in debt. Even that is cutting it close. You aren't going to get a biglaw job from either school.

I wouldn't go to WL with that stip. 50/50 chance of paying sticker is not a good gamble. I suppose you could go and just drop out after the first semester if you lose the scholarship.

[agni]

COA:
UMN = 96K
WLU = 60K

I won't be taking out loans unless something goes terribly wrong (like Korea's economy collapsing and the Won becoming worthless; my savings are in Korean Won). Actual costs will be a bit higher than the figures above since I'm not a single student.

[Nova]

If you have delusions of getting biglaw out of either, retake and reapply to NU & UVA.

Assuming you arent going to sit out & retake, and since youre not going into debt.... I think UMN is worth the difference.

Most recent class stats:

•49.2% of graduates were known to be employed in long-term, full-time legal jobs. •60.8% graduates were employed in long-term jobs.
•61.5% graduates were employed in full-time jobs.
•61.5% graduates were employed in full-time jobs.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=wl

•67.4% of graduates were known to be employed in long-term, full-time legal jobs.
•81.3% graduates were employed in long-term jobs.
•89.1% graduates were employed in full-time jobs.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=minnesota

[nebula666]

WL for $60k is reasonable. Tell them you are leaning towards another school and would go there if your scholarship was good standing. That stip is just above median and not everyone is a special snowflake.

[agni]

Not really too interested in big law, but yes, I would like to make a bit more than 60K/year since that's what I'm leaving behind. Hoping that's not too far-fetched a goal coming out of those schools...

[K Rock]

UMN no doubt.

[Ti Malice]

Wow, I had no idea that W&L's placement had dropped below 50%. Avoid.

[Ti Malice]

Not really too interested in big law, but yes, I would like to make a bit more than 60K/year since that's what I'm leaving behind. Hoping that's not too far-fetched a goal coming out of those schools...

Is this job stable? Why not stick with it? Do you hate it? Be aware that a ton of lawyering jobs are/can be pretty awful too.

[agni]

Not really too interested in big law, but yes, I would like to make a bit more than 60K/year since that's what I'm leaving behind. Hoping that's not too far-fetched a goal coming out of those schools...

Is this job stable? Why not stick with it? Do you hate it? Be aware that a ton of lawyering jobs are/can be pretty awful too.

It's complex, but yes, objectively speaking i am leaving a good situation.

[rickgrimes69]

Not really too interested in big law, but yes, I would like to make a bit more than 60K/year since that's what I'm leaving behind. Hoping that's not too far-fetched a goal coming out of those schools...

Is this job stable? Why not stick with it? Do you hate it? Be aware that a ton of lawyering jobs are/can be pretty awful too.

It's complex, but yes, objectively speaking i am leaving a good situation.

Can we ask why? You're leaving a stable 60/k job for the opportunity to pay $100k, take a not-insignificant chance of unemployment, and in all likelihood will work longer hours and make less money than you do currently. I hope you have a good reason.

[agni]

Not really too interested in big law, but yes, I would like to make a bit more than 60K/year since that's what I'm leaving behind. Hoping that's not too far-fetched a goal coming out of those schools...

Is this job stable? Why not stick with it? Do you hate it? Be aware that a ton of lawyering jobs are/can be pretty awful too.

It's complex, but yes, objectively speaking i am leaving a good situation.

Can we ask why? You're leaving a stable 60/k job for the opportunity to pay $100k, take a not-insignificant chance of unemployment, and in all likelihood will work longer hours and make less money than you do currently. I hope you have a good reason.

I guess the biggest reason is that I no longer want to live in Korea. So that sort of puts an end of that job.

Secondary reasons include there being no room for growth. I am 'stuck' there watching everyone grow while I will be lucky if my skillset does not dwindle. With retirement age at 58 and life expectancy of at least 90, I felt like I needed something that had a bit more longevity and transferability after retirement.

Third, it is stable to a fault with no room for within-the-field change of jobs; meaning you are stuck with the same people for your entire life. That is all well if everyone above you is respectable; unfortunately we have quite a few bad apples that tarnish the name.

Lastly, there is a remote possibility that the job is not going to be as stable as it is now with the low birth rate in Korea and the pressure to reduce costs (especially by cutting wages, not replacing those that retire, etc.). Workload has been steadily increasing over time and wages have not increased to match inflation in the past 4 years.

[jbagelboy]

UMN by a mile

Stips at W&L are punitive. No one loses their scholly at minnesota. CoA is very reasonable forthat degree

[UVAIce]

Do you want to live in Minnesota or the upper Midwest?

[agni]

Do you want to live in Minnesota or the upper Midwest?

If I choose UMN, yes. While the winters may be a variable, everything else about the region seems great for my family.

[UVAIce]

Do you want to live in Minnesota or the upper Midwest?

If I choose UMN, yes. While the winters may be a variable, everything else about the region seems great for my family.

If you're good with that then it isn't a terrible pick. It places well in the city and most everyone I know that goes to UMN loves it. But realize that very few people from MN get Minnesota "big law."

[timbs4339]

Minnesota is a good choice here, unless WL reduces their stip substantially. And as long a you understand that you will probably end up in a job paying the same or lower as you are making now.

[PRgradBYU]

COA:
UMN = 96K
WLU = 60K

I'd say UMN is worth $36K more than W&L, so if you're OK with living in Minnesota, you should go with UMN.

[BigZuck]

I know it's the land of opportunity and bootstrap pulling and all but law school in America isn't exactly the ticket to riches right now. I would think long and hard about passing on your current job, for all the reasons Rick said.

What are your numbers exactly? I would probably retake and ED UVA and also aim for Northwestern RD. Or maybe cop dat WUSTL fully.

[you'rethemannowdawg]

With regard to your reservations about living in the upper Midwest, people overestimate by a large degree the effect weather will have on their quality of life. MN isn't the arctic. Buy coats and hats for your kids and they can play in the snow for hours.

[Frothingslosh]

With regard to your reservations about living in the upper Midwest, people overestimate by a large degree the effect weather will have on their quality of life. MN isn't the arctic. Buy coats and hats for your kids and they can play in the snow for hours.

TITCR. Most of the country has an irrational fear of any weather that can't be classified as 'mild'. You'll be fine.

[UVAIce]

With regard to your reservations about living in the upper Midwest, people overestimate by a large degree the effect weather will have on their quality of life. MN isn't the arctic. Buy coats and hats for your kids and they can play in the snow for hours.

This is something that a Minnesotan would say. As a Minnesotan who believed this for years, it is dead wrong. The winter, especially the everlasting winter, has a major impact on your well being. I thought I was in heaven spending a winter in Virginia. It was the first time in years that I didn't have to smear my lips with chapstick everyday and use lotion twice a day to keep my skin and lips from becoming a cracked disaster.

This is what I ask most people before they move to the upper Midwest, have you ever walked outside after taking a shower and had your hair immediately freeze?

But you're also coming from Korea, and it is not exactly a tropical paradise either. Also, Lexington, the city where Washington & Lee is located, is a really small place. This doesn't make it bad, but you are talking about the difference between a school in a major urban area and one that is essentially in a big town.

[jingosaur]

If you're not going to do the whole retake/reapply thing, Minnesota is your only real option. W&L's stip is too damn high. You don't want to lose that scholarship and then have to move your family a second time.