CA Big Law Hopeful: NYU full sticker or Northwestern -90k

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erickimsthrowaway
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CA Big Law Hopeful: NYU full sticker or Northwestern -90k

Postby erickimsthrowaway » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:01 pm

What do you guys think? I have a 90k scholarship with Northwestern but may have just gotten in at NYU off the waitlist. The most important thing for me in a law school is how easy it is for graduates to get jobs in CA. I may get some aid from my family but not a ton. Considering all this, is NYU worth the extra cost? I've heard CA firms recruit more heavily from NYU than Northwestern. Any graduates from either school have any experience with this? Thanks in advance!

nebula666
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Re: CA Big Law Hopeful: NYU full sticker or Northwestern -90k

Postby nebula666 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:12 pm

10% from both schools end up in CA.

10% more get biglaw from NYU but 90k is not worth that increased chance IMO.

I'm guessing you could get a full ride to USC/UCLA. Have you considered taking that?

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jingosaur
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Re: CA Big Law Hopeful: NYU full sticker or Northwestern -90k

Postby jingosaur » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:47 pm

In before OP says they didn't get in or didn't get scholly money for USC/UCLA.

OP sounds like a splitter. UCLA and USC don't like splitters.

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Cobretti
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Re: CA Big Law Hopeful: NYU full sticker or Northwestern -90k

Postby Cobretti » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:54 pm

Typically people say the biggest benefit of NYU over lower T14 is their placement in more elite NYC firms. Their advantage in CA is going to be minimized and likely not worth 90K unless there are other factors at play that would make NYU better for you.

erickimsthrowaway
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Re: CA Big Law Hopeful: NYU full sticker or Northwestern -90k

Postby erickimsthrowaway » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:57 pm

Oh yeah, hahah, they did not like me. NO money from USC, and withdrew from UCLA before hearing back from them at all. Didn't like their jobs numbers compared to Northwestern.

I checked LST for the percentage of graduates from each school who go on to CA, but the issue I have with that is I have no idea how much of that is self-selected. Maybe only 12 percent of NYU students really aim for CA and 10 percent get it, vs 40 percent at Northwestern with only 15 getting it (exaggerating for demonstrative purposes, of course).

Does anyone know about CA firms recruiting at either school? That's what I'm most concerned about. I've heard that almost every major CA firm recruits from NYU vs only some at Northwestern. I've also heard stories about median students at NYU getting CA jobs whereas to do the same at Northwestern you have to be top 10-20 percent.

kaiser
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Re: CA Big Law Hopeful: NYU full sticker or Northwestern -90k

Postby kaiser » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:02 pm

I would say go to the websites of CA firms and check the CA offices of non-CA firms. You can filter by school. See how many NYU grads they have, and how many Northwestern grads they have and compare for yourself with actual data. Its a bit of a crude assessment, but it can still be pretty revealing.

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Cobretti
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Re: CA Big Law Hopeful: NYU full sticker or Northwestern -90k

Postby Cobretti » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:55 pm

erickimsthrowaway wrote:Oh yeah, hahah, they did not like me. NO money from USC, and withdrew from UCLA before hearing back from them at all. Didn't like their jobs numbers compared to Northwestern.

I checked LST for the percentage of graduates from each school who go on to CA, but the issue I have with that is I have no idea how much of that is self-selected. Maybe only 12 percent of NYU students really aim for CA and 10 percent get it, vs 40 percent at Northwestern with only 15 getting it (exaggerating for demonstrative purposes, of course).

Does anyone know about CA firms recruiting at either school? That's what I'm most concerned about. I've heard that almost every major CA firm recruits from NYU vs only some at Northwestern. I've also heard stories about median students at NYU getting CA jobs whereas to do the same at Northwestern you have to be top 10-20 percent.

Where have you heard this? that's a gross exaggeration on both ends. Partners I've spoken to at V10 and V25 firms in CA have told me 30% at NU. I obviously didn't ask them about NYU, but NYU does not have a bump even close to that big outside of the NY market. Some ppl have certainly got competitive CA biglaw out of NYU at median, but some have done it out of NU too, so don't go off anecdotal evidence. If you aren't gunning for NYC biglaw then 90k at NU should be a very obvious choice here.

tictactoe
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Re: CA Big Law Hopeful: NYU full sticker or Northwestern -90k

Postby tictactoe » Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:18 pm

Rising 2L at NU looking at CA biglaw here.

I actually withdrew from NYU waitlist when I got $$$ at NU. But for me, the decision was more about the bigger-picture balancing of finance and big law chances, than a more detailed debate about which would get me back to California.

For what it's worth, I don't regret my decision at all. I had chances to go back to the bay area for this summer (I chose to do something else instead) with maybe top 40% grades from fall semester. There aren't too many firms that are not coming to OCI that I would be interested in. Having had various people look over my bid list, I'll have plenty of interviews for bay area at OCI. My friends have interviews through the bay area diversity fair as well as the off campus interview program. Also, plenty of alums from NU in the bay area firms.

But I could probably say the above for NYU as well. So, at the end of the day, I think it's more of a general question of whether you'd pay $90K more (or perhaps more than that, with COL) for slightly better chances at Biglaw from NYU. I just don't think whatever difference in prestige/biglaw chances are exacerbated in California. NYU probably will give you a slight edge, but not more than it will in other markets. NU will lessen your risk in case things don't go well at all (which could happen at either school.) It's a tough decision, but I hope what I've said about CA recruiting from NU helps make it simpler.

Good luck!

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sinfiery
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Re: CA Big Law Hopeful: NYU full sticker or Northwestern -90k

Postby sinfiery » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:19 pm

I'd take the money. The only way I see this being a question is if NYC is your second choice and you would be glad to work biglaw there over any non biglaw legal job in CA...but even then, NU for ~115k less debt at graduation is the better choice.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: CA Big Law Hopeful: NYU full sticker or Northwestern -90k

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:22 pm

For California? NU with 90K and this isn't even close.

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jbagelboy
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Re: CA Big Law Hopeful: NYU full sticker or Northwestern -90k

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:11 pm

Id take Northwestern w/ 90K over NYU sticker regardless of where you want to practice, except maybe a super PI gunner in nyc going on lrap anyway. Thats a great price for Northwestern. Sticker is a bad call in general

erickimsthrowaway
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Re: CA Big Law Hopeful: NYU full sticker or Northwestern -90k

Postby erickimsthrowaway » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:31 am

Thanks for the advice everyone. I definitely understand the caveats that must be taken with anecdotal evidence, and Cobretti, I apologize, I actually got that part wrong too. Looking back at some notes I took after talking to students at NU, I was actually told that with CA roots, you might have a reasonable chance at landing a job if you're in the top 40 percent, not 10-20.

That being said, I also spoke with a NYU graduate who seemed certain that NYU offered a sizable advantage for the CA market over NU. Whether that advantage could be worth 90k may be debatable. I haven't received my aid package yet (though I'm not expecting much) and I still need to figure out the level of family contribution I might get, but depending on where these amounts might be, I guess I should rephrase my question:

If there is some advantage for NYU grads over NU grads in the CA market, what is the maximum additional amount that would be reasonable to pay to go to NYU over NU?

(sorry if my wording in this post id convoluted; I'm falling asleep as I write this)

erickimsthrowaway
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Re: CA Big Law Hopeful: NYU full sticker or Northwestern -90k

Postby erickimsthrowaway » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:35 am

Also, does anybody know if there are any resources where I can find out exactly how many more CA firms do OCI at NYU over NU? If I remember correctly, the firms that do OCI at any particular school are kept confidential, but I would like to get some sort of measurable, non anecdotal evidence to weigh the difference between the schools. I really liked kaiser's advice, which I am currently in the process of following, but I'd really like to see more into the recruitment process if it's at all possible.

tictactoe
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Re: CA Big Law Hopeful: NYU full sticker or Northwestern -90k

Postby tictactoe » Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:48 am

I still think you're overplaying (or someone you talked to overplayed) the difference in CA recruiting at each of these schools.

I count 25-30 CA (at least, bay area) firms coming to OCI. I might be a little off because I avoided the litigation-heavy, IP, and SoCal firms. BUT my bigger point is that, at least for bay area, there are only a handful of firms not at OCI. And usually, you have the chance to apply to these firms via off-campus recruiting programs. So the point isn't how many more, but whether you have all the chances you'd possibly want at CA firms. And this is data-based - I put together a list of CA firms on nalp and compared it to our OCI list. Again, might be off because I could have deleted some litigation or socal firms, but there were only a few that I added to the list of firms coming to OCI.

I was trying not to comment on whether NYU is worth 90K+ more, since that is a personal decision. But unless parents can contribute significant portion, and seeing that your priority is just getting to CA, I'd argue NU is the right call. At either school, there is a non-negligible chance of striking out, which is more doable with NU$$$. Plus, once you get close to median, I don't think there's much of a difference whether you're top 40% or top 50%. - at that point, it'd be about your ties, interview skills, work experience, etc. I'm not denying that NYU may give you an edge, but it might not even matter if you've got reasonable ties/reason to want to be in CA.

erickimsthrowaway
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Re: CA Big Law Hopeful: NYU full sticker or Northwestern -90k

Postby erickimsthrowaway » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:29 pm

Some advice I received from a recent NYU grad, if anyone else is in the same position as me or whatever:

"I definitely do not think that NYU's California advantage alone is worth anywhere close to 90k. I was going under the assumption that NYC is your close second choice target market. I think it's NYU's advantage in California, combined with its significant advantage in NYC biglaw that may arguably be worth 90k. Whether you end up in California at either school will be based on your first year grades. But let's say you end up at median. At NYU, you would still be a near sure shot getting a major NYC firm, and have a small shot at California firms. At NU, you would have an average shot at getting a major NYC firm, and likely no shot at anything in California. The fact that you would still be a near sure shot at getting a major NYC firm may be worth the 90k for me.

NYU's advantage in California would be that every firm and office is going to be at OCI, and they will take more people. Much of the evidence I have for this is anecdotal. But there is some information that you can easily find online that supports that view. For instance, look at Munger Tolles (the most prestigious California lit firm). Not a single person from NU, but a significant amount from NYU, suggesting that they don't go to NU's OCI. And you can see that at firms like Fenwick, Cooley, or the California offices of Quinn Emanuel, or Skadden for example, there are disproportionately more NYU alums. You could always apply to firms and offices that don't come to OCI outside of the OCI process at NU, but you can see that NYU would clearly have an advantage over that. Still, that advantage is not anywhere near night and day...but only when you combine it with NYU's NYC placement power might it be an arguably good choice over your NU scholarship.

Also, if you have to go to NYU at true sticker, you should go to NU. 270k in debt is insane and no law school, except maybe Yale, would be worth that burden. If your parents are being generous and paying living expenses, then there is room for real consideration."

tictactoe
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Re: CA Big Law Hopeful: NYU full sticker or Northwestern -90k

Postby tictactoe » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:59 am

erickimsthrowaway wrote:Some advice I received from a recent NYU grad, if anyone else is in the same position as me or whatever:

"I definitely do not think that NYU's California advantage alone is worth anywhere close to 90k. I was going under the assumption that NYC is your close second choice target market. I think it's NYU's advantage in California, combined with its significant advantage in NYC biglaw that may arguably be worth 90k. Whether you end up in California at either school will be based on your first year grades. But let's say you end up at median. At NYU, you would still be a near sure shot getting a major NYC firm, and have a small shot at California firms. At NU, you would have an average shot at getting a major NYC firm, and likely no shot at anything in California. The fact that you would still be a near sure shot at getting a major NYC firm may be worth the 90k for me.

NYU's advantage in California would be that every firm and office is going to be at OCI, and they will take more people. Much of the evidence I have for this is anecdotal. But there is some information that you can easily find online that supports that view. For instance, look at Munger Tolles (the most prestigious California lit firm). Not a single person from NU, but a significant amount from NYU, suggesting that they don't go to NU's OCI. And you can see that at firms like Fenwick, Cooley, or the California offices of Quinn Emanuel, or Skadden for example, there are disproportionately more NYU alums. You could always apply to firms and offices that don't come to OCI outside of the OCI process at NU, but you can see that NYU would clearly have an advantage over that. Still, that advantage is not anywhere near night and day...but only when you combine it with NYU's NYC placement power might it be an arguably good choice over your NU scholarship.

Also, if you have to go to NYU at true sticker, you should go to NU. 270k in debt is insane and no law school, except maybe Yale, would be worth that burden. If your parents are being generous and paying living expenses, then there is room for real consideration."


It's good you're getting advice. I just wanted to make sure you ALSO consider:

1) NYU is twice the size of NU. There are going to be more NYU grads anywhere. This could be a good thing, overall. But I really haven't had much trouble finding alums at firms I looked at. Maybe there are more Californians at NYU. So many factors, especially given the difference in school size, that "NYU has more alums at X, Y, Z firms" might be misleading.

2) Saying median at NU has no chance at California seems flat-out wrong. Especially because nobody, firms included, knows what median truly is, so I think anything from top 40-60% tend to get lumped together, especially if the curve is pretty tight around median. On THIS issue, I think I'm better qualified to comment (rising 2L at NU) than someone from NYU, who would be obviously better informed on how things are for NYU students.

3) Munger is most definitely at our OCI, interviewing for their LA office.

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sinfiery
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Re: CA Big Law Hopeful: NYU full sticker or Northwestern -90k

Postby sinfiery » Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:05 pm

Is there like historical law school class size data anywhere?

BeautifulSW
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Re: CA Big Law Hopeful: NYU full sticker or Northwestern -90k

Postby BeautifulSW » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:41 pm

I have to ask...if the OP wants to live and work in California, shouldn't s/he go to a California school? Stanford comes to mind but surely there are two or three other California schools that place in BigLaw? No?

erickimsthrowaway
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Re: CA Big Law Hopeful: NYU full sticker or Northwestern -90k

Postby erickimsthrowaway » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:56 pm

BeautifulSW wrote:I have to ask...if the OP wants to live and work in California, shouldn't s/he go to a California school? Stanford comes to mind but surely there are two or three other California schools that place in BigLaw? No?


because OP screwed around in college too much and west coast schools don't like splitters, haha. Even USC didn't give me dime.

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Cobretti
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Re: CA Big Law Hopeful: NYU full sticker or Northwestern -90k

Postby Cobretti » Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:10 pm

erickimsthrowaway wrote:
BeautifulSW wrote:I have to ask...if the OP wants to live and work in California, shouldn't s/he go to a California school? Stanford comes to mind but surely there are two or three other California schools that place in BigLaw? No?


because OP screwed around in college too much and west coast schools don't like splitters, haha. Even USC didn't give me dime.

That's exactly why I'm going to NU just to come back to socal. Welcome to the club lol




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