Best Schools for PI Criminal Law?

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untar614
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Re: Best Schools for PI Criminal Law?

Postby untar614 » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:14 am

OP, UMN has about a 3.8 median, so if you want big money from them, you're probably gonna have to hold off an graduating and pad that GPA big time. At this point, its probably not possible to get over their median (it would take over 2 years of straight As), but maybe getting over Mich's median is possible (~3.73), then just rock the lsat for some money.

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jselson
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Re: Best Schools for PI Criminal Law?

Postby jselson » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:27 am

untar614 wrote:OP, UMN has about a 3.8 median, so if you want big money from them, you're probably gonna have to hold off an graduating and pad that GPA big time. At this point, its probably not possible to get over their median (it would take over 2 years of straight As), but maybe getting over Mich's median is possible (~3.73), then just rock the lsat for some money.


I was surprised at that median, but the 25ths are pretty funny in comparison.

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untar614
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Re: Best Schools for PI Criminal Law?

Postby untar614 » Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:11 am

jselson wrote:
untar614 wrote:OP, UMN has about a 3.8 median, so if you want big money from them, you're probably gonna have to hold off an graduating and pad that GPA big time. At this point, its probably not possible to get over their median (it would take over 2 years of straight As), but maybe getting over Mich's median is possible (~3.73), then just rock the lsat for some money.


I was surprised at that median, but the 25ths are pretty funny in comparison.

Well USNews only uses medians, so that really opens up some major rankings-gaming if one of the T25-ish schools wanted to (and I'll be curious at WUSTL's numbers for next year). They could basically fill up a class with 49% supper splitters, 49% reverse splitters, then just get a few ppl with a high GPA and LSAT (maybe throw some full rides out to em) to get some pretty impressive medians but absurd 25th %iles. I feel like Vandy or Texas could get away with this and try to edge their way past GULC.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Best Schools for PI Criminal Law?

Postby jbagelboy » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:27 am

untar614 wrote:
jselson wrote:
untar614 wrote:OP, UMN has about a 3.8 median, so if you want big money from them, you're probably gonna have to hold off an graduating and pad that GPA big time. At this point, its probably not possible to get over their median (it would take over 2 years of straight As), but maybe getting over Mich's median is possible (~3.73), then just rock the lsat for some money.


I was surprised at that median, but the 25ths are pretty funny in comparison.

Well USNews only uses medians, so that really opens up some major rankings-gaming if one of the T25-ish schools wanted to (and I'll be curious at WUSTL's numbers for next year). They could basically fill up a class with 49% supper splitters, 49% reverse splitters, then just get a few ppl with a high GPA and LSAT (maybe throw some full rides out to em) to get some pretty impressive medians but absurd 25th %iles. I feel like Vandy or Texas could get away with this and try to edge their way past GULC.


This is how minnesota is 19th with employment numbers lower than the rest of the T30. Super splitters + super reverse splitters and a few local minnesota kids with median #s who dont know any better

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jselson
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Re: Best Schools for PI Criminal Law?

Postby jselson » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:44 am

Some hilariously bizarre Paul Campos quotes this discussion reminds me of:

How important is a school's prestige?

There's definitely a way to think about it, which is how much value is going to be added by going to X instead of Y given what I want to do and what it will cost me to go to X instead of Y.

Let's say a person has the choice of Stanford at sticker or [the University of California] Hastings with a full-ride scholarship. Maybe to the extent that somebody's interested in a public interest career, [Hastings] might be a good call. It has to be an individual calculation.


Somebody who should go to law school for sure? Let's say somebody who wants to be a district attorney and who has a 3.9 GPA and a 173 LSAT and gets a free ride to [the University of] Minnesota and whose mother is the DA in Rochester. That person? Great idea.

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Nova
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Re: Best Schools for PI Criminal Law?

Postby Nova » Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:14 am

jbagelboy wrote:
untar614 wrote:
jselson wrote:
untar614 wrote:OP, UMN has about a 3.8 median, so if you want big money from them, you're probably gonna have to hold off an graduating and pad that GPA big time. At this point, its probably not possible to get over their median (it would take over 2 years of straight As), but maybe getting over Mich's median is possible (~3.73), then just rock the lsat for some money.


I was surprised at that median, but the 25ths are pretty funny in comparison.

Well USNews only uses medians, so that really opens up some major rankings-gaming if one of the T25-ish schools wanted to (and I'll be curious at WUSTL's numbers for next year). They could basically fill up a class with 49% supper splitters, 49% reverse splitters, then just get a few ppl with a high GPA and LSAT (maybe throw some full rides out to em) to get some pretty impressive medians but absurd 25th %iles. I feel like Vandy or Texas could get away with this and try to edge their way past GULC.


This is how minnesota is 19th with employment numbers lower than the rest of the T30. Super splitters + super reverse splitters and a few local minnesota kids with median #s who dont know any better


UMN's employment numbers are not lower than the rest of the T30, no matter what metric you use.

Big law + fed clerkship numbers are in the middle of the T30 pack.

However, at this level, IMO, non-school funded full time long term JD required employment should be the most important metric, because no one should attend a T30 without a substantial scholarship since you shouldn't expect to get a market paying job out of any of these schools. Based on the most recent data, most T30s are basically even.

From 19-30....

~3/4:

Alabama

~2/3:

UMN
WUSTL
Emory
ND
ASU
UW
Iowa
BU

~60%:

GW

50-55%:

W&L
Indiana

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Best Schools for PI Criminal Law?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:05 pm

jselson wrote:Some hilariously bizarre Paul Campos quotes this discussion reminds me of:

How important is a school's prestige?

There's definitely a way to think about it, which is how much value is going to be added by going to X instead of Y given what I want to do and what it will cost me to go to X instead of Y.

Let's say a person has the choice of Stanford at sticker or [the University of California] Hastings with a full-ride scholarship. Maybe to the extent that somebody's interested in a public interest career, [Hastings] might be a good call. It has to be an individual calculation.


Somebody who should go to law school for sure? Let's say somebody who wants to be a district attorney and who has a 3.9 GPA and a 173 LSAT and gets a free ride to [the University of] Minnesota and whose mother is the DA in Rochester. That person? Great idea.


Why are these quotes bizarre?

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jbagelboy
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Re: Best Schools for PI Criminal Law?

Postby jbagelboy » Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:09 pm

Nova wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
untar614 wrote:
jselson wrote:
I was surprised at that median, but the 25ths are pretty funny in comparison.

Well USNews only uses medians, so that really opens up some major rankings-gaming if one of the T25-ish schools wanted to (and I'll be curious at WUSTL's numbers for next year). They could basically fill up a class with 49% supper splitters, 49% reverse splitters, then just get a few ppl with a high GPA and LSAT (maybe throw some full rides out to em) to get some pretty impressive medians but absurd 25th %iles. I feel like Vandy or Texas could get away with this and try to edge their way past GULC.


This is how minnesota is 19th with employment numbers lower than the rest of the T30. Super splitters + super reverse splitters and a few local minnesota kids with median #s who dont know any better


UMN's employment numbers are not lower than the rest of the T30, no matter what metric you use.

Big law + fed clerkship numbers are in the middle of the T30 pack.

However, at this level, IMO, non-school funded full time long term JD required employment should be the most important metric, because no one should attend a T30 without a substantial scholarship since you shouldn't expect to get a market paying job out of any of these schools. Based on the most recent data, most T30s are basically even.

From 19-30....

~3/4:

Alabama

~2/3:

UMN
WUSTL
Emory
ND
ASU
UW
Iowa
BU

~60%:

GW

50-55%:

W&L
Indiana


Nova, you know Im a big golden gopher fan myself, but thats not how I read the numbers. I recognize the peculiarities of the twin cities market and the extenuating circumstances, still:

UMN: ~18%

vs

(excluding UCLA/UT/Vandy/GULC obviously high)
USC: 37.6
GWU: 31.2
ND: 31.6
WashU: 26.3
Emory: 29
BC: 27.7
BU: 32
Fordham: 33.4
Alabama: ~18
UGA: 24

You are correct that I overstated for IU, Washington, ASU, W&L, who have worse numbers than UMN. But as the list above shows, most T30 outpace.

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Nova
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Re: Best Schools for PI Criminal Law?

Postby Nova » Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:50 pm

I see what youre saying. And yeah, those stats are undeniable. There is definitely more cushion at the top of other T30 classes. Still, 2/3s of the time a desirable TLS outcome wont occur from any T30. Anyone attending any school of roughly that caliber should be at peace with most likely never working at a big firm. Whether you have an 18% chance or a 30% chance of landing a TLS desirable job, anyone attending a T30 should be financially prepared to finish around median (or worse) and miss the boat.
Last edited by Nova on Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jselson
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Re: Best Schools for PI Criminal Law?

Postby jselson » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:33 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
jselson wrote:Some hilariously bizarre Paul Campos quotes this discussion reminds me of:

How important is a school's prestige?

There's definitely a way to think about it, which is how much value is going to be added by going to X instead of Y given what I want to do and what it will cost me to go to X instead of Y.

Let's say a person has the choice of Stanford at sticker or [the University of California] Hastings with a full-ride scholarship. Maybe to the extent that somebody's interested in a public interest career, [Hastings] might be a good call. It has to be an individual calculation.


Somebody who should go to law school for sure? Let's say somebody who wants to be a district attorney and who has a 3.9 GPA and a 173 LSAT and gets a free ride to [the University of] Minnesota and whose mother is the DA in Rochester. That person? Great idea.


Why are these quotes bizarre?


The first one's bizarre because Stanford is always better than Hastings for PI because of LRAP and better placement, but also because fallback options are best. A risk manager should choose it at sticker over Hastings for free in all but a miniscule number of situations (I can't even think of any - Daddy's super-rich and has his own firm and has guaranteed you a job?)

I take back the second one after finding out that there's a Rochester, MN.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Best Schools for PI Criminal Law?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:45 pm

jselson wrote:The first one's bizarre because Stanford is always better than Hastings for PI because of LRAP and better placement, but also because fallback options are best. A risk manager should choose it at sticker over Hastings for free in all but a miniscule number of situations (I can't even think of any - Daddy's super-rich and has his own firm and has guaranteed you a job?)

I take back the second one after finding out that there's a Rochester, MN.

I agree that most people here would (and maybe should) take Stanford in the first case, but I guess I just still don't think it's hilariously bizarre. (But then, you and I are coming from very different school perspectives...)

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Borhas
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Re: Best Schools for PI Criminal Law?

Postby Borhas » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:27 am

Oh yeah, another big factor is whether the school has one of those school funded fellowships. Some schools will pay you to volunteer at places, the amount varies, but if you want to be a DA or PD then you will more likely than not have to volunteer for almost a year after law school before you will likely get hired full time. I'd actually put that factor above the LRAP because public service loan forgiveness + IBR or ICR is good enough by itself.




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