Where to apply

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thenewguy
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Where to apply

Postby thenewguy » Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:59 pm

Hey all.

This is my second topic post ever, having just jonied yesterday and having been exposed to this site for around 2 weeks or so, so bare with me if I am either posting in the wrong place or ignoring conventional wisdom here. Basically I am looking for some feedback on where to apply. I would like to pursue biglaw, but I could also see myself interested in something specialized that a school would be renowed for. My gpa is a 3.54 and my lsat is a 170 (1 take) I am not URM and UG at u of michigan. I am from the philly area so penn would be very ideal but i want to be cost efficient. I understand the arguments behind LSAT retake, but for the purposes of this post, I am not interested in that suggestion (170 was better than any practice test, was testing in the 165-169 range consistently, never hit 170 till test day, and for other personal reasons retake would be very hard to commit to).

I was specifically thinking of applying to:

Penn (ed or rd...help?!)
UVA
Michigan (Ann Arbor would be second easiest transition because i undergrad there)
Duke
Northwestern
Georgetown

In terms of the specific feedback I am looking for:
ED or RD for penn:
- I would have no issue dealing with sticker price because of the home factor, job prospects, and my parents would be thrilled (they say they will help as much as they can and I know they will be most inclined to perhaps on a subcoincious level if I go close to home). I am wondering if an ED can be better used elsewhere, maybe outside shot for a little above penn (NYU, Chicago).

-How likely am I to get any money lower T14s, this would factor in my decision to ED in the first place.

-How much does my commitment level to pursuing biglaw way into this ED decision? I would say I am 80% committed at this point (and increasing day by day since I got my LSAT back).

- Are there a lot of factors that would make the T14 ranking not as decisive as a metric as I am thinking? For example, does Michigan like specialize in any particular area that would make it more prudent to attend then say Penn if I ended up interested in that field, or not really? (Apologies if this doesnt make sense)

Any advice is appreciated. Thanks

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Clearly
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Re: Where to apply

Postby Clearly » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:19 pm

I wouldn't ED anywhere if I were you, it's a strong market to be an applicant, play the field.

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nothingtosee
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Re: Where to apply

Postby nothingtosee » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:22 pm

Mylsn.info

nebula666
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Re: Where to apply

Postby nebula666 » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:36 pm

You are as close to a 100% lock as possible at Penn ED. You'd also be better than 50/50 odds at Columbia and a lock at NYU if you ED.

With RD at Penn you are more likely to be waitlisted than accepted.

RD at Michigan should net at least $30k+ but that's not enough to overcome what you illustrated are the benefits of staying at home for Penn.

I think that given what you've said so far, there's nothing wrong with taking the sure-thing with ED at Penn. You seem like you would be very happy there and Penn is by no means "settling" with your numbers. I personally think the peace of mind in knowing that you'll be attending Penn and not freaking yourself out with other offers is something you shouldn't take for granted.

That being said, applying RD everywhere and maybe ED at Columbia is not a bad option. It's really just personal preference at this point. You will net some money at lower T14 but not a ton. The big money will be from Vandy, UCLA/USC, UMN, WUSTL and similar schools.

thenewguy
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Re: Where to apply

Postby thenewguy » Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:44 pm

nothingtosee wrote:Mylsn.info


This did the trick, like I said...im new around here haha. Thank you for the advice.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Where to apply

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:36 pm

nebula666 wrote:You'd also be better than 50/50 odds at Columbia and a lock at NYU if you ED.


It is quite literally unheard of for CLS to take a non-URM at or below both 25ths. OP's chances are significantly lower than 50-50.

Not saying the odds are zero, but rather that suggesting it's anything besides a long shot is going against precedent.

ED NYU is probably the best play, although there could be some DNCG $$ in play.

BigZuck
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Re: Where to apply

Postby BigZuck » Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:02 pm

Based on all this I would probably just ED Penn and enjoy life. GG.

That is, of course, if I didn't want to do the smartest thing which is to retake. Why pay 250K for something when you can pay much less for it with minimal effort?

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jbagelboy
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Re: Where to apply

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:16 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
nebula666 wrote:You'd also be better than 50/50 odds at Columbia and a lock at NYU if you ED.


It is quite literally unheard of for CLS to take a non-URM at or below both 25ths. OP's chances are significantly lower than 50-50.

Not saying the odds are zero, but rather that suggesting it's anything besides a long shot is going against precedent.

ED NYU is probably the best play, although there could be some DNCG $$ in play.


The people with low gpas getting into CLS this cycle had crazy lsat (like 174+).

Ti Malice
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Re: Where to apply

Postby Ti Malice » Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:46 am

nebula666 wrote:You'd also be better than 50/50 odds at Columbia and a lock at NYU if you ED.

With RD at Penn you are more likely to be waitlisted than accepted.

RD at Michigan should net at least $30k+ but that's not enough to overcome what you illustrated are the benefits of staying at home for Penn.

I think that given what you've said so far, there's nothing wrong with taking the sure-thing with ED at Penn. You seem like you would be very happy there and Penn is by no means "settling" with your numbers. I personally think the peace of mind in knowing that you'll be attending Penn and not freaking yourself out with other offers is something you shouldn't take for granted.

That being said, applying RD everywhere and maybe ED at Columbia is not a bad option. It's really just personal preference at this point. You will net some money at lower T14 but not a ton. The big money will be from Vandy, UCLA/USC, UMN, WUSTL and similar schools.


Again, a lot of this is seriously overoptimistic. ED has essentially no effect at CLS and NYU. OP's odds are much closer to 0% than 50% at CLS, and he's very far from a "lock" at NYU. Non-URM applicants below both medians are never locks for acceptances anywhere, ED or not.

OP, I do agree that, aside from intensive LSAT prep and a retake for a 173+, ED to Penn is not a bad choice here. Penn has terrific BigLaw placement, and while they aren't very generous with scholarships outside of the Levy, they have given money to some ED applicants with numbers similar to yours (possibly need-based). On the other hand, you could roll the dice with a regular app and hope that a strong "Why Penn?" essay emphasizing your family ties in the area would keep you off the WL. You could then possibly use scholarship money you get offered at other T14s (which probably won't be much) to negotiate with Penn.

Would you be saving on COL by living at home, or is it just that your parents are nearby? As far as schools' specialty reputations, they should play no role in your decision. Ignore USNWR's useless specialty rankings. Law school is not like graduate study in most other fields.

nebula666
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Re: Where to apply

Postby nebula666 » Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:02 am

Ti Malice wrote:Again, a lot of this is seriously overoptimistic. ED has essentially no effect at CLS and NYU. OP's odds are much closer to 0% than 50% at CLS, and he's very far from a "lock" at NYU.



I disagree

Image - ED Only

Image - RD Only

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Where to apply

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:41 am

What parameters did you use for those LSN figures? Again, there are zero instances of someone with OP's numbers getting into CLS in the past four years. The closest instance was a 3.62/170. I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm just calling OP's odds to be someone in the 10-20% range even with ED. Also, NYU is not a lock with those numbers, even with them becoming more favorable to 170 this cycle.

ED is not an antidote to being significantly below both medians at a school.

thenewguy
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Re: Where to apply

Postby thenewguy » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:09 pm

Thank you all for your input. I very much appreciate it. To be honest I didn't consider CLS realistic before I made OP and a sample size of 5 that had a 3/2 split doesn't convince me that it would be smart to ED there. My next question is about Penn vs. NYU. I understand NYU is ranked higher but is the difference between the two schools worth sacrificing the benefits of being close to home? I would be fine working after law school in most East Coast cities.

Ti Malice
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Re: Where to apply

Postby Ti Malice » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:15 pm

nebula666 wrote:
Ti Malice wrote:Again, a lot of this is seriously overoptimistic. ED has essentially no effect at CLS and NYU. OP's odds are much closer to 0% than 50% at CLS, and he's very far from a "lock" at NYU.



I disagree

Image - ED Only

Image - RD Only


What on earth are you using for search parameters? Whatever they are, your approach is terribly flawed. Your predictions are consistently overoptimistic, so it's very clear that there's some sort of fundamental flaw to the way you're designing search parameters. (By the way, there's no need to use imgur to post the graphics. If you use myLSN's own jpeg link, it will very helpfully include the parameters you're using to reach these results.)

Here are results from the last two cycles for non-URM RD and ED applicants with a 170 and a GPA from 3.49-3.59:

Image

Please post the parameters you used. There's literally nothing close to sensible parameters for OP's stats that will generate three non-URM acceptances to CLS over the last two cycles -- or even the last six cycles.

nebula666
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Re: Where to apply

Postby nebula666 » Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:34 pm

My bad I did the automatic search by accident.

Still a lock for Penn ED though.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Where to apply

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:06 pm

thenewguy wrote:Thank you all for your input. I very much appreciate it. To be honest I didn't consider CLS realistic before I made OP and a sample size of 5 that had a 3/2 split doesn't convince me that it would be smart to ED there. My next question is about Penn vs. NYU. I understand NYU is ranked higher but is the difference between the two schools worth sacrificing the benefits of being close to home? I would be fine working after law school in most East Coast cities.


I advised ED NYU earlier, but you should understand that it is a somewhat ambitious goal for your numbers. I tend to believe LSN will understate your chances because it seems like NYU is creeping closer towards being very permissive towards a 170, following Northwestern (who just shamelessly made a 170 a near-lock). There were quite a lot of people with below-median GPAs getting accepted with a 170 this cycle. But still, you're a little below one median and pretty solidly below the other, so your chances won't be "good." I think it would be worth it if you decide that's what you want, though.

ED Penn is the "safer" play. You are most likely in with your numbers if you ED. Although you would have to decide if you're comfortably paying sticker there over trying to get some DNCG $$, which could very well be in play.

thenewguy
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Re: Where to apply

Postby thenewguy » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:15 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
thenewguy wrote:Thank you all for your input. I very much appreciate it. To be honest I didn't consider CLS realistic before I made OP and a sample size of 5 that had a 3/2 split doesn't convince me that it would be smart to ED there. My next question is about Penn vs. NYU. I understand NYU is ranked higher but is the difference between the two schools worth sacrificing the benefits of being close to home? I would be fine working after law school in most East Coast cities.


I advised ED NYU earlier, but you should understand that it is a somewhat ambitious goal for your numbers. I tend to believe LSN will understate your chances because it seems like NYU is creeping closer towards being very permissive towards a 170, following Northwestern (who just shamelessly made a 170 a near-lock). There were quite a lot of people with below-median GPAs getting accepted with a 170 this cycle. But still, you're a little below one median and pretty solidly below the other, so your chances won't be "good." I think it would be worth it if you decide that's what you want, though.

ED Penn is the "safer" play. You are most likely in with your numbers if you ED. Although you would have to decide if you're comfortably paying sticker there over trying to get some DNCG $$, which could very well be in play.



Thank you for all your input. You, along with the others, have been particularly helpful. All of this is leaning me towards ED Penn, with my reasoning being the difference between NYU and PEnn may not be enough to justify NYU being riskier to ED to. I also have a biased input towards the difference between NYU and Penn because of all the advantages Penn affords me through living a quick train ride away. Luckily, I do have a bit of time to think over everything.

We'reAllGonnaMakeIt
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Re: Where to apply

Postby We'reAllGonnaMakeIt » Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:00 am

Does applying ED help at Penn?

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Where to apply

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:35 am

We'reAllGonnaMakeIt wrote:Does applying ED help at Penn?


A bunch. Maybe more than anywhere besides UVA.

0831kf
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Re: Where to apply

Postby 0831kf » Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:52 pm

If money is a big factor, ED Northwestern is not a bad option, although you have low chance of getting it.

If Penn is truly your first choice, I would say ED and you will probably get it.

We'reAllGonnaMakeIt
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Re: Where to apply

Postby We'reAllGonnaMakeIt » Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:57 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
We'reAllGonnaMakeIt wrote:Does applying ED help at Penn?


A bunch. Maybe more than anywhere besides UVA.


Does applying ED help at every single school?

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Where to apply

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:16 am

We'reAllGonnaMakeIt wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
We'reAllGonnaMakeIt wrote:Does applying ED help at Penn?


A bunch. Maybe more than anywhere besides UVA.


Does applying ED help at every single school?


Probably everywhere except Northwestern, and that's because ED there is a full ride.

But the effect varies significantly by school. At Columbia, it's minimal. EDing means you can get in with a 3.7/170 instead of the pretty hard 3.9 floor they usually give to 170s. It doesn't significantly affect your chances. At UVA, it's a big deal that alters strategic considerations. They're known for taking almost anyone above their floor (3.0) as long as you ED with a 170. People who would be longshots if they applied RD become near-locks if they ED at UVA.




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