Pull the trigger?

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Go?

Go!
35
76%
Don't go!
8
17%
Go, but only if they give you more money.
3
7%
 
Total votes: 46

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twenty
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Pull the trigger?

Postby twenty » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:12 pm

Buddy who doesn't have an account on TLS:

In at GULC with 90k and in NOWHERE ELSE except a meh California T1 with a similar scholarship (no stips). I know, weird. Strong ties to CA, wants to come back to CA as soon as possible.

General career goals are who knows, Govt/PI > biglaw > any law job > any job; in that order, but he strikes me as someone who may switch sides come OCI.

So how about it TLS? Is GULC with a 90k scholarship enough to pull the trigger, or is it not worth it?

EDIT> Stats are 173 and no GPA. Since both he and I got dinged everywhere with fairly good stats (mine were 166 and URM), no amount of retaking is really going to fix this.
Last edited by twenty on Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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hephaestus
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Re: Pull the trigger?

Postby hephaestus » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:18 pm

I don't think GULC with 90K is a bad deal. What are his numbers? Will a retake help or is he a big splitter?

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nickb285
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Re: Pull the trigger?

Postby nickb285 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:19 pm

According to LST, about 6% of GULC grads go to California. It won't be as easy as going to NY or DC, but I suspect there's a decent alumni network, and GULC's gov/PI connections and LRAP are pretty excellent. I'm actually doing something similar--haven't pulled the trigger yet but I'm leaning strongly toward GULC despite a desire to work in Utah--and from what I've read and from people I've spoken to GULC has decent reach at least in secondary markets. Might also be tougher if he insists on working in LA/SF versus smaller markets. If he were to wait and retake, could he get into Stanford/Berkeley/USC or UCLA with a scholly? If that's unlikely I'd say GULC; if he has a shot at those that might be the better option.

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RetakeFrenzy
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Re: Pull the trigger?

Postby RetakeFrenzy » Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:30 am

I'd imagine someone who's capable of getting into Georgetown and receiving as much as 90K in scholarship money would be able to snatch UCLA/USC with decent money... No?

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jbagelboy
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Re: Pull the trigger?

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:10 am

Depends on their stats.

If this person is a super splitter, CA schools may not be in the cards and GULC is the bes its gonna get so they should take advantage of the nice scholly.

If they are like 3.8/167, then I would sit out a cycle and reapply (and probably retake as well). As the other poster mentioned, median-ish stats at gulc should get $$ from UCLA as well.

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RetakeFrenzy
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Re: Pull the trigger?

Postby RetakeFrenzy » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:37 am

jbagelboy wrote:Depends on their stats.

If this person is a super splitter, CA schools may not be in the cards and GULC is the bes its gonna get so they should take advantage of the nice scholly.

If they are like 3.8/167, then I would sit out a cycle and reapply (and probably retake as well). As the other poster mentioned, median-ish stats at gulc should get $$ from UCLA as well.


I see. Coast schools like UCLA/USC and BC/BU seem to be less receptive to splitters...

rad lulz
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Re: Pull the trigger?

Postby rad lulz » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:39 am

Yeah need to know some numbers

If he splits enough I could easily see his only options being, even with a reasonable retake improvement:

NU sticker
ED UVA sticker
GULC w 90k
California T(TT)1

In which case GULC at 90k is what I'd do

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shifty_eyed
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Re: Pull the trigger?

Postby shifty_eyed » Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:47 am

UCLA/USC have been super splitter friendly this cycle. But if it's 90k at Georgetown or UC Davis, I guess Georgetown

BigZuck
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Re: Pull the trigger?

Postby BigZuck » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:14 am

Smells like a reverse splitter to me for some reason

I know it's a regular posting for a friend but does the OP get to ignore the rules for this subforum?

I think we need to know more information. 90K at GULC still might be a cubic butt-ton of debt

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twenty
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Re: Pull the trigger?

Postby twenty » Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:26 am

Sorry about missing the stats part, guys. I'll update the OP, too.

Stats are 173 LSAT with no GPA. Same super-crappy online school as mine. :D

Seeing as how both of our applications didn't have much in common except that our cycles were unprecedentedly bad for our numbers, a retake isn't going to help him. Especially not with a 173.

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2014
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Re: Pull the trigger?

Postby 2014 » Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:33 am

I don't think GULC with 90k is worth it. The national reach is not good and you would have to do about as well at GULC as you would at UCLA/USC or maybe even Davis/Hastings to get back to Cali. I just can't see a Cali firm going out of their way to hire a median GULC student, and since your odds of being top 20% or w/e you would need to be at GULC are effectively the same as at a more local school, I think you would be better off going to the cheaper option in the region you want to work in.

If you apply early and get into an MVPDN this might change, but GULC even w/ 90k would be horrifying to me.

BigZuck
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Re: Pull the trigger?

Postby BigZuck » Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:23 pm

2014 wrote:I don't think GULC with 90k is worth it. The national reach is not good and you would have to do about as well at GULC as you would at UCLA/USC or maybe even Davis/Hastings to get back to Cali. I just can't see a Cali firm going out of their way to hire a median GULC student, and since your odds of being top 20% or w/e you would need to be at GULC are effectively the same as at a more local school, I think you would be better off going to the cheaper option in the region you want to work in.

If you apply early and get into an MVPDN this might change, but GULC even w/ 90k would be horrifying to me.


Disgustingly flagrant anti-Cornell trolling.

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sinfiery
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Re: Pull the trigger?

Postby sinfiery » Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:29 pm

Numerically, schools should be jumping over themselves for that 173 this cycle. Seems like the no GPA is really hurting the app.


I would go to Gtown @ 90k but I can't comment on the cycle of someone with no GPA. At first glance they should reapply but maybe if this is the best they can expect, I'd go.

senorhosh
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Re: Pull the trigger?

Postby senorhosh » Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:46 pm

I had the same dilemma. Similar LSAT. I was going to withdraw and reapply but thankfully i got in off a couple WLs.

GULC at 90k is barely worth it. I'm sure he can get UcLA at similar or less money, but since UCLA had cheaper COA, it should come to similar costs or maybe even cheaper. If he is from CA, def. UCLA will be cheaper with the in state tuition cost. (oh just saw he got rejected everywhere else. Did he apply to Ucla?)

I believe GULC has one of the highest CoL. If he doesn't want to reapply and his other options suck, then I'd go.

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2014
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Re: Pull the trigger?

Postby 2014 » Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:53 pm

BigZuck wrote:
2014 wrote:I don't think GULC with 90k is worth it. The national reach is not good and you would have to do about as well at GULC as you would at UCLA/USC or maybe even Davis/Hastings to get back to Cali. I just can't see a Cali firm going out of their way to hire a median GULC student, and since your odds of being top 20% or w/e you would need to be at GULC are effectively the same as at a more local school, I think you would be better off going to the cheaper option in the region you want to work in.

If you apply early and get into an MVPDN this might change, but GULC even w/ 90k would be horrifying to me.


Disgustingly flagrant anti-Cornell trolling.

I like Cornell a great deal, just not for anywhere outside of NY or I guess New England. Although LST says 6% from Cornell go to California so maybe it does have a little reach out west.

DouglasDevelopment
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Re: Pull the trigger?

Postby DouglasDevelopment » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:59 pm

2014 wrote:The national reach is not good and you would have to do about as well at GULC as you would at UCLA/USC or maybe even Davis/Hastings to get back to Cali.


what are you basing this on?

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2014
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Re: Pull the trigger?

Postby 2014 » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:02 am

DouglasDevelopment wrote:
2014 wrote:The national reach is not good and you would have to do about as well at GULC as you would at UCLA/USC or maybe even Davis/Hastings to get back to Cali.


what are you basing this on?

GULC places 31% into big law and 6% of the class goes to Cali. Unless you are unreasonably assuming that everyone from GULC going to Cali landed big law, you are talking 1-5% of the class at big firms in OPs market. That sure looks like limited national reach to me.

As for the other part, USC places 33% in big law, UCLA 23% so I don't think it is outlandish to say that you would have to be roughly top 3rd at GULC, USC, or UCLA to feel like you had a fighting chance. Despite being more expensive, GULC doesn't really give more insulation and almost surely has worse Cali firm representation at OCI than USC/UCLA does.

I can't really defend my Hastings/Davis but will say that based on GULC's poor placement overall in NY and DC, both larger markets than LA or SV, that to carry the GULC degree to Cali I would probably not want to be top 3rd but rather top 10% or so which is right in line with how you need to do at Hastings/Davis to be in play. (Each places 8% in big law respectively)

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jbagelboy
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Re: Pull the trigger?

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:25 am

2014 wrote:
DouglasDevelopment wrote:
2014 wrote:The national reach is not good and you would have to do about as well at GULC as you would at UCLA/USC or maybe even Davis/Hastings to get back to Cali.


what are you basing this on?

GULC places 31% into big law and 6% of the class goes to Cali. Unless you are unreasonably assuming that everyone from GULC going to Cali landed big law, you are talking 1-5% of the class at big firms in OPs market. That sure looks like limited national reach to me.

As for the other part, USC places 33% in big law, UCLA 23% so I don't think it is outlandish to say that you would have to be roughly top 3rd at GULC, USC, or UCLA to feel like you had a fighting chance. Despite being more expensive, GULC doesn't really give more insulation and almost surely has worse Cali firm representation at OCI than USC/UCLA does.

I can't really defend my Hastings/Davis but will say that based on GULC's poor placement overall in NY and DC, both larger markets than LA or SV, that to carry the GULC degree to Cali I would probably not want to be top 3rd but rather top 10% or so which is right in line with how you need to do at Hastings/Davis to be in play. (Each places 8% in big law respectively)


Id take USC/UCLA over Gtown for LA biglaw.

Definitely not Davis or Hastings

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2014
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Re: Pull the trigger?

Postby 2014 » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:32 am

Guess it depends on the age old question of whether you prefer Cali big law > Any big law > Cali shit law or Cali big law > Cali shit law > Any big law. If the latter, Davis or Hastings at hopefully a huge discount is defensible.

DouglasDevelopment
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Re: Pull the trigger?

Postby DouglasDevelopment » Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:53 pm

2014 wrote:
DouglasDevelopment wrote:
2014 wrote:The national reach is not good and you would have to do about as well at GULC as you would at UCLA/USC or maybe even Davis/Hastings to get back to Cali.


what are you basing this on?

GULC places 31% into big law and 6% of the class goes to Cali. Unless you are unreasonably assuming that everyone from GULC going to Cali landed big law, you are talking 1-5% of the class at big firms in OPs market. That sure looks like limited national reach to me.

As for the other part, USC places 33% in big law, UCLA 23% so I don't think it is outlandish to say that you would have to be roughly top 3rd at GULC, USC, or UCLA to feel like you had a fighting chance. Despite being more expensive, GULC doesn't really give more insulation and almost surely has worse Cali firm representation at OCI than USC/UCLA does.

I can't really defend my Hastings/Davis but will say that based on GULC's poor placement overall in NY and DC, both larger markets than LA or SV, that to carry the GULC degree to Cali I would probably not want to be top 3rd but rather top 10% or so which is right in line with how you need to do at Hastings/Davis to be in play. (Each places 8% in big law respectively)


Your argument appears to be this: GULC has shitty NLJ numbers, therefore you need to have higher grades to get a particular job relative to other lower T14/USC/UCLA or to take the degree elsewhere. I see people make this this argument a lot here. Problem is, it doesn't take into account that GULC has to place 2 to 3 times the number of students.

We know these two things about big firm hiring in large markets: they like to have school diversity among the students they hire (ie they're going to limit the number of SAs they take from any school except maybe HYS or the T6), and that their cutoffs/standards for GULC generally aren't that different from the rest of the T14. Given those two pieces of information, and given GULC's gargantuan class size relative to the rest of the lower T14, it makes more sense to attribute the lag in NLJ to class size rather than employers having a lower view of the school.

Looking at NLJ then randomly estimating this guy needs to be top 10% to get back to Cali is flawed as hell, particularly since he has ties.

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2014
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Re: Pull the trigger?

Postby 2014 » Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:10 am

DouglasDevelopment wrote:
2014 wrote:
DouglasDevelopment wrote:
2014 wrote:The national reach is not good and you would have to do about as well at GULC as you would at UCLA/USC or maybe even Davis/Hastings to get back to Cali.


what are you basing this on?

GULC places 31% into big law and 6% of the class goes to Cali. Unless you are unreasonably assuming that everyone from GULC going to Cali landed big law, you are talking 1-5% of the class at big firms in OPs market. That sure looks like limited national reach to me.

As for the other part, USC places 33% in big law, UCLA 23% so I don't think it is outlandish to say that you would have to be roughly top 3rd at GULC, USC, or UCLA to feel like you had a fighting chance. Despite being more expensive, GULC doesn't really give more insulation and almost surely has worse Cali firm representation at OCI than USC/UCLA does.

I can't really defend my Hastings/Davis but will say that based on GULC's poor placement overall in NY and DC, both larger markets than LA or SV, that to carry the GULC degree to Cali I would probably not want to be top 3rd but rather top 10% or so which is right in line with how you need to do at Hastings/Davis to be in play. (Each places 8% in big law respectively)


Your argument appears to be this: GULC has shitty NLJ numbers, therefore you need to have higher grades to get a particular job relative to other lower T14/USC/UCLA or to take the degree elsewhere. I see people make this this argument a lot here. Problem is, it doesn't take into account that GULC has to place 2 to 3 times the number of students.

We know these two things about big firm hiring in large markets: they like to have school diversity among the students they hire (ie they're going to limit the number of SAs they take from any school except maybe HYS or the T6), and that their cutoffs/standards for GULC generally aren't that different from the rest of the T14. Given those two pieces of information, and given GULC's gargantuan class size relative to the rest of the lower T14, it makes more sense to attribute the lag in NLJ to class size rather than employers having a lower view of the school.

Looking at NLJ then randomly estimating this guy needs to be top 10% to get back to Cali is flawed as hell, particularly since he has ties.

Sure that's fair, and believe me GULC's class size would be my #1 concern if I were looking into it. The thing is, that they have 600 or w/e students makes it all the more likely that you do need top 10%, because even firms who want to hire from GULC are almost certainly not going to be looking to hire 3x as many GULC students as other schools, especially in California. This means you are competing against your huge ass class that almost certainly has a non-trivial amount of Californians and the only way to differentiate yourself is to have better grades.

The 10% was obviously a made up figure, but I'm not convinced it is not plausible or even unlikely.

BigZuck
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Re: Pull the trigger?

Postby BigZuck » Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:17 pm

I don't know WTF this thread has morphed into but the last few posts make me want to bang my head against a wall

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jbagelboy
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Re: Pull the trigger?

Postby jbagelboy » Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:50 am

BigZuck wrote:I don't know WTF this thread has morphed into but the last few posts make me want to bang my head against a wall


<3

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2014
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Re: Pull the trigger?

Postby 2014 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 8:43 am

BigZuck wrote:I don't know WTF this thread has morphed into but the last few posts make me want to bang my head against a wall

Sorry I really dislike GULC lol

DouglasDevelopment
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Re: Pull the trigger?

Postby DouglasDevelopment » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:01 pm

2014 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I don't know WTF this thread has morphed into but the last few posts make me want to bang my head against a wall

Sorry I really dislike GULC lol


Thats cool, but some of the things you've said in this thread are verifiably false.




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