Elite Biglaw

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sinfiery
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby sinfiery » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:34 am

Is a medianbro at Penn safer betting NYC or Phili with no ties to either if the goal is any job?

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bk1
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby bk1 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:34 am

sinfiery wrote:Is a medianbro at Penn safer betting NYC or Phili with no ties to either if the goal is any job?

NYC and it's not even close.

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sinfiery
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby sinfiery » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:37 am

bk1 wrote:
sinfiery wrote:Is a medianbro at Penn safer betting NYC or Phili with no ties to either if the goal is any job?

NYC and it's not even close.

I see. That self selection could take away some strong candidates from NYC then.

SportsFan
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby SportsFan » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:40 am

bk1 wrote:
sinfiery wrote:Is a medianbro at Penn safer betting NYC or Phili with no ties to either if the goal is any job?

NYC and it's not even close.

Yeah this. Even with very strong Philly ties (the situation I'm in), consensus is that median at Penn has a better chance at NYC just because there aren't that many SA positions in Philly.

09042014
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby 09042014 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:59 am

sinfiery wrote:
bk1 wrote:
sinfiery wrote:Is a medianbro at Penn safer betting NYC or Phili with no ties to either if the goal is any job?

NYC and it's not even close.

I see. That self selection could take away some strong candidates from NYC then.


Wouldn't explain V10 self selection because presumably those guys would basically be ok in Philadelphia.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if people who could get V10 in NYC selected that over the top Philadelphia firms for career reasons. Maybe I'm undervaluing the city of brotherly love, but how many people are turning down Cravath for Cozen or Dechert?

Even if you adjust for 20% self selection it's significantly below the C&N.

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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby SportsFan » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:05 am

Desert Fox wrote:
sinfiery wrote:
bk1 wrote:
sinfiery wrote:Is a medianbro at Penn safer betting NYC or Phili with no ties to either if the goal is any job?

NYC and it's not even close.

I see. That self selection could take away some strong candidates from NYC then.


Wouldn't explain V10 self selection because presumably those guys would basically be ok in Philadelphia.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if people who could get V10 in NYC selected that over the top Philadelphia firms for career reasons. Maybe I'm undervaluing the city of brotherly love, but how many people are turning down Cravath for Cozen or Dechert?

Even if you adjust for 20% self selection it's significantly below the C&N.

There are a decent amount of people here who just don't want NYC. I remember we had a meeting about OCI around the end of last semester and they asked everyone what markets they were targeting. Only about half the room raised their hands when they mentioned NYC. Now, I'm sure more than half the class will be bidding NYC at OCI, but there are definitely many more people at Penn avoiding NYC biglaw than at NYU or CLS. I doubt it has a noticeable impact on the amount of people going to V10's though (probably 2-3% at best).

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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby 09042014 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:22 am

SportsFan wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
sinfiery wrote:
bk1 wrote:NYC and it's not even close.

I see. That self selection could take away some strong candidates from NYC then.


Wouldn't explain V10 self selection because presumably those guys would basically be ok in Philadelphia.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if people who could get V10 in NYC selected that over the top Philadelphia firms for career reasons. Maybe I'm undervaluing the city of brotherly love, but how many people are turning down Cravath for Cozen or Dechert?

Even if you adjust for 20% self selection it's significantly below the C&N.

There are a decent amount of people here who just don't want NYC. I remember we had a meeting about OCI around the end of last semester and they asked everyone what markets they were targeting. Only about half the room raised their hands when they mentioned NYC. Now, I'm sure more than half the class will be bidding NYC at OCI, but there are definitely many more people at Penn avoiding NYC biglaw than at NYU or CLS. I doubt it has a noticeable impact on the amount of people going to V10's though (probably 2-3% at best).


I shouldn't have been so black and white. Clearly many will not bid NYC at all. I see the same thing at NU all the time. I was (inarticulately) trying to say that self selection may not be as strong at V10 levels because people don't wanna feel like they are hurting their career.

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untar614
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby untar614 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:53 am

Desert Fox wrote:
I shouldn't have been so black and white. Clearly many will not bid NYC at all. I see the same thing at NU all the time. I was (inarticulately) trying to say that self selection may not be as strong at V10 levels because people don't wanna feel like they are hurting their career.


I agree with this. I don't know if everyone thinks this way, but I know if I had the opportunity to work at a V10 firm, unless I had another offer that was close and had very strong reasons for choosing it instead (e.g. V10 firm has been doing Lathaming), I would choose the V10 firm because if I end up only sticking around for a few years, I believe that having a few years at a V10 firm will do much more for me regarding how impressive my resume looks and what contacts I could make than at another firm lower down the vault rankings.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:04 pm

I have a hard time believing Penn grads who could go V10 are turning it down for Dechert.

A CLS grad (and, I'm guessing, an NYU grad) can get V10 down to about top 30%. It seems to be essentially impossible at Penn past around top 20%, except for Weil and STB.

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Nelson
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby Nelson » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:12 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:I have a hard time believing Penn grads who could go V10 are turning it down for Dechert.

A CLS grad (and, I'm guessing, an NYU grad) can get V10 down to about top 30%. It seems to be essentially impossible at Penn past around top 20%, except for Weil and STB.

What are you basing this on other than pulling it out of your butt?

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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby Peyton » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:18 pm

I have Philly friends who turned down NYC for Philly. The upside for Philly is that they do not have to worry about summer lodging. The pay is slightly more in NYC (roughly $350 a week) but the insane NY/NYC taxes probably brings that figure closer to $200. The biggest downside is that Philly offer rates (depending on the firm) are not always in lock-step with NYC.

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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby SportsFan » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:20 pm

Peyton wrote:I have Philly friends who turned down NYC for Philly. The upside for Philly is that they do not have to worry about summer lodging. The pay is slightly more in NYC (roughly $350 a week) but the insane NY/NYC taxes probably brings that figure closer to $200. The biggest downside is that Philly offer rates (depending on the firm) are not always in lock-step with NYC.

145k in Philly will go a lot farther than 160k in NYC (though only a few firms actually pay that much). Plus the hours are a lot better.

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Nelson
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby Nelson » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:28 pm

NYC V10 is a horrible way to compare schools that are in NYC to schools outside of NYC. Look at DC offices for a neutral field comparison of how these schools place (and see the similarity of non-HYS T14s).

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Nelson
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby Nelson » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:37 pm

Peyton wrote:I have Philly friends who turned down NYC for Philly. The upside for Philly is that they do not have to worry about summer lodging. The pay is slightly more in NYC (roughly $350 a week) but the insane NY/NYC taxes probably brings that figure closer to $200. The biggest downside is that Philly offer rates (depending on the firm) are not always in lock-step with NYC.

Taxes are lower in NYC than Philly. It's rent that makes Philly more livable.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:44 pm

Nelson wrote:NYC V10 is a horrible way to compare schools that are in NYC to schools outside of NYC. Look at DC offices for a neutral field comparison of how these schools place (and see the similarity of non-HYS T14s).


The discussion began as a question about NYC placement. Didn't argue CLS or NYU outplaced Penn in any other market because there's just not enough data to tell. From what I know about DC, all the T14 are, yes, similar enough as to not be highly differentiable.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:49 pm

Nelson wrote:Taxes are lower in NYC than Philly. It's rent that makes Philly more livable.


Don't think this is true when non-income taxes factors are taken into account on a city level, because NYC has higher property taxes. Also, when state taxes are taken into account NYC has the higher tax burden by a pretty significant margin.

Revolver066
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby Revolver066 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:51 pm

NYC is one of the absolute last places I'd want to go. Based on my ANECDOTAL evidence (I know how much TLS loves anecdotes), most people are bidding NYC but it seems most people view it as a back up choice or a necessary evil (better a job in NYC than no job at all). Also, I really don't think you can use class sizes when comparing NYU/CLS placement to Penn. To do that assumes equal percentages of the class are targeting NYC, and I honestly don't believe that to be the case.

I'd bet CLS/NYU has an advantage, it'd be pretty pathetic if they didn't considering it's their home market, but I really don't think its as pronounced as the raw numbers or "T6" diehard posters want to believe. Although I freely admit I could be wrong, and frankly don't care either way as I'm not gunning for dat V10 NY PRESTIGE.

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Bronte
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby Bronte » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:01 pm

Revolver066 wrote:NYC is one of the absolute last places I'd want to go. Based on my ANECDOTAL evidence (I know how much TLS loves anecdotes), most people are bidding NYC but it seems most people view it as a back up choice or a necessary evil (better a job in NYC than no job at all). Also, I really don't think you can use class sizes when comparing NYU/CLS placement to Penn. To do that assumes equal percentages of the class are targeting NYC, and I honestly don't believe that to be the case.

I'd bet CLS/NYU has an advantage, it'd be pretty pathetic if they didn't considering it's their home market, but I really don't think its as pronounced as the raw numbers or "T6" diehard posters want to believe. Although I freely admit I could be wrong, and frankly don't care either way as I'm not gunning for dat V10 NY PRESTIGE.


I would wager that for the vast majority of people who bid NY it's not some necessary evil or anywhere close. NY is the financial capital of the world (and a major cultural center). If you're interested in deal making and certain types of litigation, it's second to none. Anti-NY people are very vocal whereas NYers have nothing to prove, so the voice of the former tends to be more salient.

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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby Revolver066 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:04 pm

hjklk
Last edited by Revolver066 on Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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sinfiery
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby sinfiery » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:07 pm

What do they bid first? Pennsylvania? Do people really go to UPenn because they want to work in Pennsylvania?



If not Pennsylvania, I doubt the ratio is any different of those that attend school at NYU/CLS. Generally speaking, not many people self select into wanting NYC end up with the determining factor of where they want to attend school being that it is located in NYC.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:23 pm

Revolver066 wrote:NYC is one of the absolute last places I'd want to go. Based on my ANECDOTAL evidence (I know how much TLS loves anecdotes), most people are bidding NYC but it seems most people view it as a back up choice or a necessary evil (better a job in NYC than no job at all). Also, I really don't think you can use class sizes when comparing NYU/CLS placement to Penn. To do that assumes equal percentages of the class are targeting NYC, and I honestly don't believe that to be the case.

I'd bet CLS/NYU has an advantage, it'd be pretty pathetic if they didn't considering it's their home market, but I really don't think its as pronounced as the raw numbers or "T6" diehard posters want to believe. Although I freely admit I could be wrong, and frankly don't care either way as I'm not gunning for dat V10 NY PRESTIGE.


There's some latitude given in those V10 numbers accounting for such self-selection, but the difference between Penn and CLS/NYU is quite large. I would certainly say it's wide enough to account for self-selection differences. If the top 20% at Penn isn't going for V10, what are they going for? They don't appear to be showing up in large numbers anywhere else.

I'm not arguing that CLS/NYU have an advantage in spite of NYC being their home market, merely that the advantage among NYC V10 happens to be the case. The advantage probably isn't that pronounced, but it is real and it is significant.

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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby SportsFan » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:36 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
Revolver066 wrote:NYC is one of the absolute last places I'd want to go. Based on my ANECDOTAL evidence (I know how much TLS loves anecdotes), most people are bidding NYC but it seems most people view it as a back up choice or a necessary evil (better a job in NYC than no job at all). Also, I really don't think you can use class sizes when comparing NYU/CLS placement to Penn. To do that assumes equal percentages of the class are targeting NYC, and I honestly don't believe that to be the case.

I'd bet CLS/NYU has an advantage, it'd be pretty pathetic if they didn't considering it's their home market, but I really don't think its as pronounced as the raw numbers or "T6" diehard posters want to believe. Although I freely admit I could be wrong, and frankly don't care either way as I'm not gunning for dat V10 NY PRESTIGE.


There's some latitude given in those V10 numbers accounting for such self-selection, but the difference between Penn and CLS/NYU is quite large. I would certainly say it's wide enough to account for self-selection differences. If the top 20% at Penn isn't going for V10, what are they going for? They don't appear to be showing up in large numbers anywhere else.

I'm not arguing that CLS/NYU have an advantage in spite of NYC being their home market, merely that the advantage among NYC V10 happens to be the case. The advantage probably isn't that pronounced, but it is real and it is significant.

70% of CLS grads stay in NY, according to the CLS website. Then about 7% in California and 7% in DC.
http://web.law.columbia.edu/careers/emp ... statistics

This graph shows where Penn grads are working.

Image

Now, this obviously doesn't say where the top 20% are going to work, but Penn definitely places in a larger geographic area than CLS (note that I'm not saying Penn places BETTER elsewhere, but there's clearly self-selection going on).

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jbagelboy
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:40 pm

Okay, are people really saying that Penn > CLS and NYU now?

whatevs bros that's crazy talk, confirmed TLS data fail right here

Peyton
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby Peyton » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:17 pm

jbagelboy wrote:Okay, are people really saying that Penn > CLS and NYU now?

whatevs bros that's crazy talk, confirmed TLS data fail right here

To get you up to speed. ATL has Penn ranked at #5... ahead of CLS & NYU.

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sinfiery
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby sinfiery » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:19 pm

YSPH




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