Elite Biglaw

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:59 pm

BigLaw_Lit wrote:Thanks for the replies everyone. It seems most agree the T6 gives an advantage over Penn. Is that true for all of CCN - basically does Columbia=NYU for NY Elite biglaw?


Warning: Biased CLS opinions ahead.

I think there is a difference, but it's verrrrry slight. NYU places at probably 95% the clip that CLS does in V10. I've never heard of anyone besides Williams and Connolly treating them seriously differently. S&C has been rumored to prefer CLS grads, while DPW and CGSH have been rumored to prefer NYU grads. At many firms, the grade cutoff is exactly the same. A CLS student won't have much of an advantage beyond maybe winning a "tiebreak" if a firm likes each applicant just the same. I would only use it as a factor in deciding between the schools if you seriously don't lean one way or the other.

But that's just my opinion. You'll probably find people who will argue placement is the exact same. As has been mentioned, this discussion has happened a thousand times on here.

Also, both place significantly better than Penn does, and "CCNP" is not a thing.

Revolver066
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby Revolver066 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:06 pm

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SportsFan
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby SportsFan » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:28 pm

I've discussed the CCN vs. Penn in the past with bronck (a CLS student), and my conclusion is that Columbia (and probably NYU and Chicago, though I didn't see their numbers) does have a noticeable advantage over Penn with some V10 (and a few other prestigious NYC) firms, but there's not a huge difference outside of that. Also, I think the face that ~20% of Penn kids stay in PA makes a big difference in terms of overall job outcomes, since thats a demographic that doesn't exist at CLS or NYU (where that additional 20% of the class is targeting NYC).

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Bronck
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby Bronck » Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:49 pm

SportsFan wrote:I've discussed the CCN vs. Penn in the past with bronck (a CLS student), and my conclusion is that Columbia (and probably NYU and Chicago, though I didn't see their numbers) does have a noticeable advantage over Penn with some V10 (and a few other prestigious NYC) firms, but there's not a huge difference outside of that. Also, I think the face that ~20% of Penn kids stay in PA makes a big difference in terms of overall job outcomes, since thats a demographic that doesn't exist at CLS or NYU (where that additional 20% of the class is targeting NYC).


Was just about to post this. Agree with the overall assessment. For others, we compared last year's V10 offer #s and CLS seemed to have around a 9-10% edge.

Revolver066
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby Revolver066 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:34 pm

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Bronck
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby Bronck » Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:48 pm

Revolver066 wrote:
Bronck wrote:
SportsFan wrote:I've discussed the CCN vs. Penn in the past with bronck (a CLS student), and my conclusion is that Columbia (and probably NYU and Chicago, though I didn't see their numbers) does have a noticeable advantage over Penn with some V10 (and a few other prestigious NYC) firms, but there's not a huge difference outside of that. Also, I think the face that ~20% of Penn kids stay in PA makes a big difference in terms of overall job outcomes, since thats a demographic that doesn't exist at CLS or NYU (where that additional 20% of the class is targeting NYC).


Was just about to post this. Agree with the overall assessment. For others, we compared last year's V10 offer #s and CLS seemed to have around a 9-10% edge.


Im assuming that overall placement numbers correct? Or is it saying firms will go 10 percent deeper in Columbia's class?


We only looked at placement into V10 firms (where CLS had the 9-10% advantage), we didn't compare overall placement.

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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby Revolver066 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:41 am

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TaipeiMort
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby TaipeiMort » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:03 am

If you are going to make tiers, it is probably HYS>CC>NP.

If you want an idea of how schools actually place, look at partners in each market, and at each firm, then look at the number of students at each school.

Harvard is the strongest because it has the largest nationwide network and brand name.

Yale and Stanford really don't have nationwide biglaw alumni networks, but have prestige, and also really only have like 60+% of their classes at a time looking for biglaw because of gov, good PI, and clerkships. This means that only something like 120 or so Y and S grads are on the market at a time. Every firm would be happy to have one.

Columbia is the best school in New York, where the most attorneys are hired each year. They also have a good number of partners at each firm in the city. The data also reflects that below median students get jobs.

Chicago has a small class size, the highest number of Vault partners per capita of any school, and dumps a good number of students into non-traditional markets due to the school's strong minority contingent of conservatives (think Texas, West, etc.) Low class size, lots of partners, and spread-out placement means that competition for each market is less fierce, and students can get jobs throughout the curve.

NYU and Penn should be on another tier together. Penn places better than peers because it 1) has close proximity to the largest legal market in the country, and 2) has a lot of business-focused/ WE-heavy students who self-select. NYU has the distinction of being the second strongest school in the largest legal market.

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Bronck
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby Bronck » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:31 am

Revolver066 wrote:Gotcha. Just out of curiosity, did it factor in for percentage of the class going to NY or just by class size overall?

As an aside, I really shouldn't care this much, I'm not even looking to work in NY. Though what I'd really like to see are the callback or offer GPAs for each of the schools to see if there's a noticeable difference.


Just by overall class size.

CLS doesn't release this info to their students (only Stone/Kent offer rates), and the schools that do release this to their students keep it tightly under wraps.

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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby kaiser » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:37 am

TaipeiMort wrote:If you are going to make tiers, it is probably HYS>CC>NP.

If you want an idea of how schools actually place, look at partners in each market, and at each firm, then look at the number of students at each school.

Harvard is the strongest because it has the largest nationwide network and brand name.

Yale and Stanford really don't have nationwide biglaw alumni networks, but have prestige, and also really only have like 60+% of their classes at a time looking for biglaw because of gov, good PI, and clerkships. This means that only something like 120 or so Y and S grads are on the market at a time. Every firm would be happy to have one.

Columbia is the best school in New York, where the most attorneys are hired each year. They also have a good number of partners at each firm in the city. The data also reflects that below median students get jobs.

Chicago has a small class size, the highest number of Vault partners per capita of any school, and dumps a good number of students into non-traditional markets due to the school's strong minority contingent of conservatives (think Texas, West, etc.) Low class size, lots of partners, and spread-out placement means that competition for each market is less fierce, and students can get jobs throughout the curve.

NYU and Penn should be on another tier together. Penn places better than peers because it 1) has close proximity to the largest legal market in the country, and 2) has a lot of business-focused/ WE-heavy students who self-select. NYU has the distinction of being the second strongest school in the largest legal market.


And yet the numbers posted in this very thread show that NYU and Columbia have nearly identical placement at the top firms, with NYU far closer to Columbia than to Penn (even after adjusting for class size difference & the fact that Penn places lots of students in Philly). Columbia may have an edge as far as clerkships or marginal things of that nature, but as far as top firm placement, NYU and CLS have next to no distinction, with both quite ahead of Penn among placement in top firms.
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby sinfiery » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:37 am

TaipeiMort wrote:If you are going to make tiers, it is probably HYS>CC>NP.

If you want an idea of how schools actually place, look at partners in each market, and at each firm, then look at the number of students at each school.

You didn't do this yourself

And CLS and NYU have been shown to be peers in NYC when looking at this

Edit: beaten to thr punch

And NYU/CLS outpace Penn by huge margins on partner per capita

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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby kaiser » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:46 am

Here is a compilation of the numbers we ran earlier in the thread. A random sample, but skewed toward the more prestigious firms. Makes it quite clear that NYU and CLS are peers as far as top firm placement, and why saying NYU is closer to Penn makes little sense:

Skadden: Penn - 24, NYU - 77, Columbia - 62
Davis Polk: Penn - 20, NYU - 117, Columbia - 113
Kirkland: Penn - 9, NYU - 47, Columbia - 44
Sidley: Penn - 11, NYU - 46, Columbia - 39
Ropes & Gray: Penn - 8, NYU - 36, Columbia - 34

Wachtell: Penn - 17, NYU - 36, Columbia - 46
Cravath: Penn - 23, NYU - 42, Columbia - 73
Sullivan & Cromwell: Penn - 45, NYU - 69, Columbia - 104
Weil: Penn - 38, NYU - 85, Columbia - 75
Lathan & Watkins: Penn - 43, NYU - 99, Columbia - 94
Simpson Thatcher: Penn - 39, NYU - 81, Columbia - 109
Cleary Gottlieb: Penn - 38, NYU - 150, Columbia - 141

Total : Penn - 315, NYU - 885, Columbia - 934

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TaipeiMort
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby TaipeiMort » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:48 am

kaiser wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:If you are going to make tiers, it is probably HYS>CC>NP.

If you want an idea of how schools actually place, look at partners in each market, and at each firm, then look at the number of students at each school.

Harvard is the strongest because it has the largest nationwide network and brand name.

Yale and Stanford really don't have nationwide biglaw alumni networks, but have prestige, and also really only have like 60+% of their classes at a time looking for biglaw because of gov, good PI, and clerkships. This means that only something like 120 or so Y and S grads are on the market at a time. Every firm would be happy to have one.

Columbia is the best school in New York, where the most attorneys are hired each year. They also have a good number of partners at each firm in the city. The data also reflects that below median students get jobs.

Chicago has a small class size, the highest number of Vault partners per capita of any school, and dumps a good number of students into non-traditional markets due to the school's strong minority contingent of conservatives (think Texas, West, etc.) Low class size, lots of partners, and spread-out placement means that competition for each market is less fierce, and students can get jobs throughout the curve.

NYU and Penn should be on another tier together. Penn places better than peers because it 1) has close proximity to the largest legal market in the country, and 2) has a lot of business-focused/ WE-heavy students who self-select. NYU has the distinction of being the second strongest school in the largest legal market.


And yet the numbers posted in this very thread show that NYU and Columbia have nearly identical placement at the top firms, with NYU far closer to Columbia than to Penn (even after adjusting for class size difference & the fact that Penn places lots of students in Philly). Columbia may have an edge as far as clerkships or marginal things of that nature, but as far as top firm placement, NYU and CLS have next to no distinction, with both quite ahead of Penn among placement in top firms.


Makes sense, I probably misread some numbers in the past. Also, this whole "elite firm" argument is kind of dumb without drawing better distinctions regarding practice groups and stuff. If OP wants to know best NY deals firms, using vault is relatively good. If OP wants to know best West Coast (e.g., private financings), capital markets, or litigation, this is kind of useless.

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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby twenty » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:02 am

Threads like these just never seem to disappoint.

Revolver066
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby Revolver066 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:24 am

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sinfiery
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby sinfiery » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:30 am

It's not really 2:1: 250 vs 450

All those going to NYC from Penn are going for biglaw
all those going NYC from CLS/NYU are not going biglaw


There is no doubt Penn places amazing in the NLJ tho as a whole

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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby smaug_ » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:32 am

Revolver066 wrote:See, I think a mistake people use to is that they take the class size and go, well its about 1/2 the size, so if its not a 2:1 ratio, NYU wins. I think this is wrong. If you look at LST, out of the 270 Penn kids, 38.9% or 105 went to NY, vs the roughly 296 NYU kids (61.4% of 482 grads) that went to NY and the 316 Columbia kids (67.4% of the 458 grads) that went to New York. When you look at those ratios (slightly less than 3:1), they match up almost EXACTLY as you would expect. In other words, the 315/885/934 numbers you show means that they are actually placement peers.

I think this position is bolstered further by the fact that Penn's Nlj250 + fed clerkship percentages are actually better than NYU/Columbia. So the 60 plus precent of Penn kids not going to NY aren't getting shitty jobs; in fact they seem to be doing quite well. Not to mention I personally think making 135k in Philly >160k in NY (but obviously a lot would disagree).

tl;dr IF you look at the percentage/ratio of kids actually working in NY, the above numbers show they are pretty much exact peers. Anyone please feel free to correct my numbers if they are wrong.

Also, good god do they have huge classes.


You're assuming that people wanted to work in NYC in the same numbers as they actually got it. Do you think that only 105 of the 270 Penn grads tried to get work there? I doubt you can make those assumptions for any of the schools. Moreover, if self-selection is the claim, you'd need to look at firms in secondary markets as well in order to actually determine what the impact of self-selection is.

I don't really know if there is a difference or not and I definitely don't care. I'm sure that firms want to hire from each school and have a general idea of the number of associates they expect to take from each. Trying to draw out real distinctions here seems misguided.

Revolver066
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby Revolver066 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:40 am

hibiki wrote:
Revolver066 wrote:See, I think a mistake people use to is that they take the class size and go, well its about 1/2 the size, so if its not a 2:1 ratio, NYU wins. I think this is wrong. If you look at LST, out of the 270 Penn kids, 38.9% or 105 went to NY, vs the roughly 296 NYU kids (61.4% of 482 grads) that went to NY and the 316 Columbia kids (67.4% of the 458 grads) that went to New York. When you look at those ratios (slightly less than 3:1), they match up almost EXACTLY as you would expect. In other words, the 315/885/934 numbers you show means that they are actually placement peers.

I think this position is bolstered further by the fact that Penn's Nlj250 + fed clerkship percentages are actually better than NYU/Columbia. So the 60 plus precent of Penn kids not going to NY aren't getting shitty jobs; in fact they seem to be doing quite well. Not to mention I personally think making 135k in Philly >160k in NY (but obviously a lot would disagree).

tl;dr IF you look at the percentage/ratio of kids actually working in NY, the above numbers show they are pretty much exact peers. Anyone please feel free to correct my numbers if they are wrong.

Also, good god do they have huge classes.


You're assuming that people wanted to work in NYC in the same numbers as they actually got it. Do you think that only 105 of the 270 Penn grads tried to get work there? I doubt you can make those assumptions for any of the schools. Moreover, if self-selection is the claim, you'd need to look at firms in secondary markets as well in order to actually determine what the impact of self-selection is.

I don't really know if there is a difference or not and I definitely don't care. I'm sure that firms want to hire from each school and have a general idea of the number of associates they expect to take from each. Trying to draw out real distinctions here seems misguided.


No, I agree. There's a lot of gaps in the numbers with self-selection, etc that I dont think any raw figure/placement stat can conclusively say one school is 10 percent better/or definitively better in this situation. You're pretty much echoing my point. It's been my position that HYS then all the rest is the only tier that matters. But really once you get into actually going to law school (at least in my experience), all this TLS tier nonsense doesn't really equate to anything. Fun to mess around with the numbers though

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sinfiery
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby sinfiery » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:00 am

Agreed, we don't really know anything and it matters not at all but its some good fun.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:11 am

Whoever ran those numbers did not run only associates, which is pretty much the only subset we're concerned with. Here are the firm numbers for V10 NYC associates:

WLRK: CLS 18, NYU 13, Penn 11
Cravath: CLS 44, NYU 23, Penn 14
Skadden: CLS 48, NYU 37, Penn 18
SullCrom: CLS 45, NYU 36, Penn 20
DPW: CLS 60, NYU 71, Penn 11
Weil: CLS 35, NYU 26, Penn 19
STB: CLS 35, NYU 32, Penn 23
CGSH: CLS 50, NYU 63, Penn 18
Latham: CLS 5, NYU 28, Penn 4
K&E: CLS 30, NYU 29, Penn 4

Total: CLS 370, NYU 358, Penn 142

Normalized by 2012 class size (CLS 460, NYU 478, Penn 270):

CLS: .804
NYU: .749
Penn: .526

Here's what that should tell you: If there is a CLS advantage or NYU, it is very slight and reasonable people could argue over whether it exists given the greater proportion of PI students at NYU. But both CLS and NYU are outplacing Penn in NYC at a pretty substantial rate. But given that we basically already knew that, I don't understand exactly what the argument is.

ETA: Anyone know why Latham seems to hire almost no CLS grads?

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Bronck
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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby Bronck » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:48 am

They almost gave out as many offers as Weil last year and gave out double the year before. No idea what it means for previous years, but maybe CLSers just don't accept Latham at a high rate.

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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby smaug_ » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:58 am

Bronck wrote:They almost gave out as many offers as Weil last year and gave out double the year before. No idea what it means for previous years, but maybe CLSers just don't accept Latham at a high rate.


People that Latham would want to hire probably had another option and chose that instead of risking Lathaming.

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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby guano » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:16 am

TaipeiMort wrote:Penn places better than peers because it 1) has close proximity to the largest legal market in the country, and 2) has a lot of business-focused/ WE-heavy students who self-select

You're forgetting that penn is also located in a city with a large legal market that has no other major schools competing for places. Philadelphia's biglaw has in excess of 4000 lawyers, which is in line with DC, LA, SF, etc., and Penn students are also competitive in NYC, and to a lesser extent DC.

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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby SportsFan » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:23 am

guano wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:Penn places better than peers because it 1) has close proximity to the largest legal market in the country, and 2) has a lot of business-focused/ WE-heavy students who self-select

You're forgetting that penn is also located in a city with a large legal market that has no other major schools competing for places. Philadelphia's biglaw has in excess of 4000 lawyers, which is in line with DC, LA, SF, etc., and Penn students are also competitive in NYC, and to a lesser extent DC.

Philly is a small legal market. Much smaller than DC in particular (at least in terms of biglaw SA positions). No idea how it compares to LA or SF. But I do agree with your general point, the ~20% of Penn students self-selecting into PA/Philly is what makes Penns employment numbers better than peer schools.

And just for reference, what I've read/heard is that top 1/3 is needed for DC, though I think you can get some firms from median with WE/luck/etc.

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Re: Elite Biglaw

Postby guano » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:34 am

SportsFan wrote:
guano wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:Penn places better than peers because it 1) has close proximity to the largest legal market in the country, and 2) has a lot of business-focused/ WE-heavy students who self-select

You're forgetting that penn is also located in a city with a large legal market that has no other major schools competing for places. Philadelphia's biglaw has in excess of 4000 lawyers, which is in line with DC, LA, SF, etc., and Penn students are also competitive in NYC, and to a lesser extent DC.

Philly is a small legal market. Much smaller than DC in particular (at least in terms of biglaw SA positions). No idea how it compares to LA or SF. But I do agree with your general point, the ~20% of Penn students self-selecting into PA/Philly is what makes Penns employment numbers better than peer schools.

And just for reference, what I've read/heard is that top 1/3 is needed for DC, though I think you can get some firms from median with WE/luck/etc.

I don't remember the numbers off the top of my head, but Philly is a little over 4000 biglaw lawyers, while DC is just shy of 5000. Dallas, Houston, LA, SF and Boston are also in the 4-5k range; NYC is somewhere around 8500 or so.

But, that might not reflect proportionate hiring of law school grads (i.e. some markets may hire more laterals, or have a lower turnover rate of mid-level associates)




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