Why is Northwestern so badly ranked in LST?

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laww
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Why is Northwestern so badly ranked in LST?

Postby laww » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:03 pm

I thought northwestern students have better employment statistics than the ones posted on law school transparency.

can someone explain? i thought people who went to northwestern made bank because like 1/2 the graduates made like 160k lol

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ManOfTheMinute
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Re: Why is Northwestern so badly ranked in LST?

Postby ManOfTheMinute » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:08 pm

laww wrote:I thought northwestern students have better employment statistics than the ones posted on law school transparency.

can someone explain? i thought people who went to northwestern made bank because like 1/2 the graduates made like 160k lol


I read this as you saying that your gut says the actual numbers are bullshit, and you're looking for a few NW students to be like, "yo, it ain't that bad," at which point you're gonna be like, "see, my gut is right."

rad lulz
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Re: Why is Northwestern so badly ranked in LST?

Postby rad lulz » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:08 pm

Maybe their employment numbers aren't as good as you thought they were

laww
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Re: Why is Northwestern so badly ranked in LST?

Postby laww » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:13 pm

I was just curious because I read somewhere that 99% of the people at northwestern are employed within 9 months of graduation and that most of them make good money.

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laotze
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Re: Why is Northwestern so badly ranked in LST?

Postby laotze » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:14 pm

laww wrote:I thought northwestern students have better employment statistics than the ones posted on law school transparency.

can someone explain? i thought people who went to northwestern made bank because like 1/2 the graduates made like 160k lol


Maybe "half" of those employed in positions requiring bar passage, but that's already <80% of the grads according to NU's own statistics, therefore no more than 40% max of grads are making $160k. Not as amazing as you seem to think.
And Northwestern isn't called "NW" outside of sports columns, just fyi.
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/career/statistics/

laww wrote:I was just curious because I read somewhere that 99% of the people at northwestern are employed within 9 months of graduation and that most of them make good money.


You should always trust everything you read on the internet.
Last edited by laotze on Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Why is Northwestern so badly ranked in LST?

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:14 pm

laww wrote:I was just curious because I read somewhere that 99% of the people at northwestern are employed within 9 months of graduation and that most of them make good money.


Now you're just trolling us

laww
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Re: Why is Northwestern so badly ranked in LST?

Postby laww » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:16 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
laww wrote:I was just curious because I read somewhere that 99% of the people at northwestern are employed within 9 months of graduation and that most of them make good money.


Now you're just trolling us


It was a princeton review thing where it gave northwestern an award for being the best LS for employment prospects... I think I got troleded

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laotze
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Re: Why is Northwestern so badly ranked in LST?

Postby laotze » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:18 pm

laww wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
laww wrote:I was just curious because I read somewhere that 99% of the people at northwestern are employed within 9 months of graduation and that most of them make good money.


Now you're just trolling us


It was a princeton review thing where it gave northwestern an award for being the best LS for employment prospects... I think I got troleded


More realistically they are probably not even in the top ten in that regard.
http://abovethelaw.com/careers/law-school-rankings/

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Why is Northwestern so badly ranked in LST?

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:42 pm

laww wrote:I was just curious because I read somewhere that 99% of the people at northwestern are employed within 9 months of graduation and that most of them make good money.


N.b. that this could be technically true for a school whose employment numbers were nonetheless suspect. For example, if School A has 51% Biglaw, 48% McDonald's, and 1% unemployment, your above statement is true. Regardless, it does not accurately convey the risk of attending School A.

laww
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Re: Why is Northwestern so badly ranked in LST?

Postby laww » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:47 pm

Lets say hypothetically someday in the future I find out I got into northwestern. Would I be ill advised to attend it?

I'm a severe splitter (3.0 gpa, hoping for 173+ lsat if i keep working my 170+ PT track to get a 180 by Oct lol) so I'm basically out of choices lol.

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Re: Why is Northwestern so badly ranked in LST?

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:53 pm

laww wrote:Lets say hypothetically someday in the future I find out I got into northwestern. Would I be ill advised to attend it?

I'm a severe splitter (3.0 gpa, hoping for 173+ lsat if i keep working my 170+ PT track to get a 180 by Oct lol) so I'm basically out of choices lol.


Get an LSAT score and get back to us.

This question depends on your alternatives. Northwestern is a great school and its grads do well. Is it better than UT w/ $$ for texas biglaw? Or BC full ride for boston small firms? No. But with the right goals and finances, sure you should go. Given your (prospective) super splitter status, NU w/ 30k could end up your best option

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sinfiery
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Re: Why is Northwestern so badly ranked in LST?

Postby sinfiery » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:54 pm

Depends, career alternatives? There is no law school that admission into justifies attending based solely on said information.

There are reasons that are unique to NU that skew the conservative approach we take to employment statistics against them but I'll let someone from NU write specifics if they care to.

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Magnalum
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Re: Why is Northwestern so badly ranked in LST?

Postby Magnalum » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:38 am

.
Last edited by Magnalum on Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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guano
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Re: Why is Northwestern so badly ranked in LST?

Postby guano » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:54 am

Magnalum wrote:Northwestern sends about 10% of graduates to JD Preferred jobs that do not count as LST jobs in the overall jobs percentage. Peer schools like Duke and Cornell have very few (4 between them) JD preferred jobs. When you add the JD preferred jobs to Northwestern's total, they are on par with Duke and Cornell. I think it is reasonable to count JD Preferred from NU because if the relationship with the business school at NU.

Someone actually put thought into it and didn't just rely purely on numerical data? :shock:

This also explains why e.g. Yale has relatively low employment results. Another thing to keep in mind is that LST only looks at quantity of jobs, not quality of jobs. So a school that puts most of grads into shitlaw would have a better score than a school that puts a big chunk of its grads into biglaw (eg why GW has a better LST score than Georgetown)

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laotze
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Re: Why is Northwestern so badly ranked in LST?

Postby laotze » Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:03 am

guano wrote:
Magnalum wrote:Northwestern sends about 10% of graduates to JD Preferred jobs that do not count as LST jobs in the overall jobs percentage. Peer schools like Duke and Cornell have very few (4 between them) JD preferred jobs. When you add the JD preferred jobs to Northwestern's total, they are on par with Duke and Cornell. I think it is reasonable to count JD Preferred from NU because if the relationship with the business school at NU.

Someone actually put thought into it and didn't just rely purely on numerical data? :shock:

This also explains why e.g. Yale has relatively low employment results. Another thing to keep in mind is that LST only looks at quantity of jobs, not quality of jobs. So a school that puts most of grads into shitlaw would have a better score than a school that puts a big chunk of its grads into biglaw (eg why GW has a better LST score than Georgetown)


On the other hand, there is argument to be made for the perspective that it's better to bet on a school with a higher chance of any legal employment than it is to bet on a school with a lower chance but a higher percentage of biglaw.
I personally wouldn't make that argument, but it could be made. If you're choosing between two T2s, for instance, and one has a 60% legal employment rate with only 5% biglaw but the other has a 50% employment rate with 10% biglaw, which would you say is the safer bet? I assume the answer would change depending on scholarship vs sticker and so forth, but you get where I'm going with this.

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guano
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Re: Why is Northwestern so badly ranked in LST?

Postby guano » Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:37 am

laotze wrote:
guano wrote:
Magnalum wrote:Northwestern sends about 10% of graduates to JD Preferred jobs that do not count as LST jobs in the overall jobs percentage. Peer schools like Duke and Cornell have very few (4 between them) JD preferred jobs. When you add the JD preferred jobs to Northwestern's total, they are on par with Duke and Cornell. I think it is reasonable to count JD Preferred from NU because if the relationship with the business school at NU.

Someone actually put thought into it and didn't just rely purely on numerical data? :shock:

This also explains why e.g. Yale has relatively low employment results. Another thing to keep in mind is that LST only looks at quantity of jobs, not quality of jobs. So a school that puts most of grads into shitlaw would have a better score than a school that puts a big chunk of its grads into biglaw (eg why GW has a better LST score than Georgetown)


On the other hand, there is argument to be made for the perspective that it's better to bet on a school with a higher chance of any legal employment than it is to bet on a school with a lower chance but a higher percentage of biglaw.
I personally wouldn't make that argument, but it could be made. If you're choosing between two T2s, for instance, and one has a 60% legal employment rate with only 5% biglaw but the other has a 50% employment rate with 10% biglaw, which would you say is the safer bet? I assume the answer would change depending on scholarship vs sticker and so forth, but you get where I'm going with this.

My only point is that the numbers are only the start of the analysis, not the end

As was pointed out earlier, not all JD-preferred are created equal, and if a law school is attached to a good business school, or in a market like DC (eg politics) these are if more value than at other schools

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Re: Why is Northwestern so badly ranked in LST?

Postby untar614 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:49 am

guano wrote:My only point is that the numbers are only the start of the analysis, not the end

As was pointed out earlier, not all JD-preferred are created equal, and if a law school is attached to a good business school, or in a market like DC (eg politics) these are if more value than at other schools

I definitely agree with this, and this is just a prime example of the data available to us, while great to have and way better than what people used to have, still doesn't tell the whole story and can be misleading in cases such as this. A more rigorous breakdown of the jobs attained by graduates would be really great, but I don't know how realistic it is to get the kind of specifics we'd like to see.

laotze wrote:If you're choosing between two T2s, for instance, and one has a 60% legal employment rate with only 5% biglaw but the other has a 50% employment rate with 10% biglaw, which would you say is the safer bet?

TCR is to not go, obviously.

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laotze
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Re: Why is Northwestern so badly ranked in LST?

Postby laotze » Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:56 am

untar614 wrote:
laotze wrote:If you're choosing between two T2s, for instance, and one has a 60% legal employment rate with only 5% biglaw but the other has a 50% employment rate with 10% biglaw, which would you say is the safer bet?

TCR is to not go, obviously.


I'm assuming full scholly + living stipend or live with parents, since I can't imagine why anyone else would attend a TT. For someone with a UGTTT lib arts degree unable to snag >Starbucks employment, I'd say that's a pretty reasonable investment.

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untar614
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Re: Why is Northwestern so badly ranked in LST?

Postby untar614 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:05 pm

laotze wrote:
untar614 wrote:
laotze wrote:If you're choosing between two T2s, for instance, and one has a 60% legal employment rate with only 5% biglaw but the other has a 50% employment rate with 10% biglaw, which would you say is the safer bet?

TCR is to not go, obviously.


I'm assuming full scholly + living stipend or live with parents, since I can't imagine why anyone else would attend a TT. For someone with a UGTTT lib arts degree unable to snag >Starbucks employment, I'd say that's a pretty reasonable investment.

I was joking, but yeah, even if my alternatives were scant, I wouldn't take on more than a small debt load for a school like that. But to address your point seriously, I'd say that anyone going to a school with less than top-third being in biglaw range should consider biglaw off the table (though a nice bonus if they manage to land it), and should only go with the intention and willingness to do small scale law. That being the case, the debt load one should be willing to take for that should be determined accordingly.

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Re: Why is Northwestern so badly ranked in LST?

Postby laww » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:01 pm

So is Northwest a good school? As in if I am able to get into it would I be wrong if I went there?

I'm asking because I'm a splitter and my choices in T14 are limited.

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guano
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Re: Why is Northwestern so badly ranked in LST?

Postby guano » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:01 pm

laww wrote:So is Northwest a good school? As in if I am able to get into it would I be wrong if I went there?

I'm asking because I'm a splitter and my choices in T14 are limited.

Better than Northeastern

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jbagelboy
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Re: Why is Northwestern so badly ranked in LST?

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:04 pm

laww wrote:So is Northwest a good school? As in if I am able to get into it would I be wrong if I went there?

I'm asking because I'm a splitter and my choices in T14 are limited.


Yes, its a great school and a great community. You should be very happy to get in there so long as you have a scholarship/outside financial support.

GO WILDCATS

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Re: Why is Northwestern so badly ranked in LST?

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:14 pm

Magnalum wrote:Northwestern sends about 10% of graduates to JD Preferred jobs that do not count as LST jobs in the overall jobs percentage. Peer schools like Duke and Cornell have very few (4 between them) JD preferred jobs. When you add the JD preferred jobs to Northwestern's total, they are on par with Duke and Cornell. I think it is reasonable to count JD Preferred from NU because if the relationship with the business school at NU.


It's not just the relationship, a large percentage of our class actually is getting an MBA and pursues MBA track jobs.

Another chunk of the class is doing AJD and several, are just going back to where they came from (which was the idea behind the program).

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Re: Why is Northwestern so badly ranked in LST?

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:15 pm

laotze wrote:
guano wrote:
Magnalum wrote:Northwestern sends about 10% of graduates to JD Preferred jobs that do not count as LST jobs in the overall jobs percentage. Peer schools like Duke and Cornell have very few (4 between them) JD preferred jobs. When you add the JD preferred jobs to Northwestern's total, they are on par with Duke and Cornell. I think it is reasonable to count JD Preferred from NU because if the relationship with the business school at NU.

Someone actually put thought into it and didn't just rely purely on numerical data? :shock:

This also explains why e.g. Yale has relatively low employment results. Another thing to keep in mind is that LST only looks at quantity of jobs, not quality of jobs. So a school that puts most of grads into shitlaw would have a better score than a school that puts a big chunk of its grads into biglaw (eg why GW has a better LST score than Georgetown)


On the other hand, there is argument to be made for the perspective that it's better to bet on a school with a higher chance of any legal employment than it is to bet on a school with a lower chance but a higher percentage of biglaw.
I personally wouldn't make that argument, but it could be made. If you're choosing between two T2s, for instance, and one has a 60% legal employment rate with only 5% biglaw but the other has a 50% employment rate with 10% biglaw, which would you say is the safer bet? I assume the answer would change depending on scholarship vs sticker and so forth, but you get where I'm going with this.


Shit law isn't safe. Treating a legal job as a good outcome is silly. Most suck.

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laotze
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Re: Why is Northwestern so badly ranked in LST?

Postby laotze » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:17 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Magnalum wrote:Northwestern sends about 10% of graduates to JD Preferred jobs that do not count as LST jobs in the overall jobs percentage. Peer schools like Duke and Cornell have very few (4 between them) JD preferred jobs. When you add the JD preferred jobs to Northwestern's total, they are on par with Duke and Cornell. I think it is reasonable to count JD Preferred from NU because if the relationship with the business school at NU.


It's not just the relationship, a large percentage of our class actually is getting an MBA and pursues MBA track jobs.

Another chunk of the class is doing AJD and several, are just going back to where they came from (which was the idea behind the program).


Northwestern really is the anti-Chicago in so many aspects. I'm inclined to love them for it.




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