Georgetown vs. Utah

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Dat preftige or dat low low price?

Georgetown (COA $105k)
38
64%
Utah (COA $45k-75k)
21
36%
 
Total votes: 59

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nickb285
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Georgetown vs. Utah

Postby nickb285 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:26 pm

So I just got off the waitlist at Georgetown, and sent an email asking about merit aid (since there's no way I'd do GULC at sticker). The response indicated that I may be able to get around $20k/year, with savings and parental assistance that would drop total debt at graduation to about $130k. Meanwhile I am currently deposited at Utah, which has given me a $14k/year scholarship that unfortunately comes with stipulations of approximately top 40% (3.35 GPA). My COA there if I keep the scholarship will be $45k, if I lose it for one year it'll be $60k, and if I lose it for two years it'll be $75k.

I want to work in Utah after I graduate. I'm interested in government, prosecution, environmental PI, or failing any of those, civil litigation. I don't want the biglaw lifestyle, so I've accepted that I won't be making the biglaw money. Other concerns:

--I know nothing about, and nobody in, DC. I visited once in elementary school and once in high school, and that is my entire experience with DC (and really the East Coast in general). Here in Utah, I have a strong social group and family, and I worry that going across the country and not knowing anyone except law students would stress me right the hell out, especially when you factor in that I'd basically have to pack up and move in the next couple of weeks.
--Employment numbers, not counting school-funded jobs, are pretty similar as a percentage, but GULC put a full quarter of last year's class in government or PI jobs, compared to Utah's 9%. OTOH I don't know if that extra 15% in public service is worth an extra $50-85k.
--Not sure how well Georgetown could get me to Salt Lake after graduating.

So I guess my final question is, is it worth it to pay 2-3 times as much for Georgetown, when I want to wind up in Utah anyway?
Last edited by nickb285 on Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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DoveBodyWash
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Re: Georgetown vs. Utah

Postby DoveBodyWash » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:38 pm

if you wanna go back to Utah anyway and don't want BigLaw...then I don't think GULC makes much sense for you. The stips at Utah are unfortunate, but they're not overly burdensome. 130k of GULC debt is admittedly lower than 200k+. I think you could manage that debt with a job at a smaller firm or PI in Utah..it's not necessarily BigLaw-or-Bust like 200k+ is. But it will nudge you towards BigLaw once the panic of repaying it settles in.

Is there any data abt GULC's placement in Utah? Is GULC well-regarded in Utah or the region? Personally I don't think it's worth it given your goals.

bruin91
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Re: Georgetown vs. Utah

Postby bruin91 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:40 pm

Use your offer from Georgetown to loosen the stips and/or get more $$$ from Utah.

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nickb285
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Re: Georgetown vs. Utah

Postby nickb285 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:40 pm

cusenation wrote:if you wanna go back to Utah anyway and don't want BigLaw...then I don't think GULC makes much sense for you. The stips at Utah are unfortunate, but they're not overly burdensome. 130k of GULC debt is admittedly lower than 200k+. I think you could manage that debt with a job at a smaller firm or PI in Utah..it's not necessarily BigLaw-or-Bust like 200k+ is. But it will nudge you towards BigLaw once the panic of repaying it settles in.

Is there any data abt GULC's placement in Utah? Is GULC well-regarded in Utah or the region? Personally I don't think it's worth it given your goals.


I don't know that there are enough people trying to go from GULC to Utah to have any significant amount of data. GULC is well-regarded here, as it is most places. GULC takes a lot of shit on TLS, but it's still a school that people know and respect, despite its issues.

$130k for a T14 seems like a great price, but "great price for a T14" and "great price for a school when you don't want biglaw" are slightly different realms. I dunno. This is a tough one for me, as GULC was kind of my long-shot dream school.

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DoveBodyWash
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Re: Georgetown vs. Utah

Postby DoveBodyWash » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:42 pm

nickb285 wrote:
cusenation wrote:if you wanna go back to Utah anyway and don't want BigLaw...then I don't think GULC makes much sense for you. The stips at Utah are unfortunate, but they're not overly burdensome. 130k of GULC debt is admittedly lower than 200k+. I think you could manage that debt with a job at a smaller firm or PI in Utah..it's not necessarily BigLaw-or-Bust like 200k+ is. But it will nudge you towards BigLaw once the panic of repaying it settles in.

Is there any data abt GULC's placement in Utah? Is GULC well-regarded in Utah or the region? Personally I don't think it's worth it given your goals.


I don't know that there are enough people trying to go from GULC to Utah to have any significant amount of data. GULC is well-regarded here, as it is most places. GULC takes a lot of shit on TLS, but it's still a school that people know and respect, despite its issues.

$130k for a T14 seems like a great price, but "great price for a T14" and "great price for a school when you don't want biglaw" are slightly different realms. I dunno. This is a tough one for me, as GULC was kind of my long-shot dream school.

yea I mean you never know. You could end up wanting to do BigLaw while you're at Utah anyway. Or you might end up really loving D.C. and the East Coast if you go to GULC. It's a tough call for sure and it's not helped by the fact that your geographic/career goals could very well change.

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nickb285
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Re: Georgetown vs. Utah

Postby nickb285 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:47 pm

cusenation wrote:yea I mean you never know. You could end up wanting to do BigLaw while you're at Utah anyway. Or you might end up really loving D.C. and the East Coast if you go to GULC. It's a tough call for sure and it's not helped by the fact that your geographic/career goals could very well change.


I may not always want Utah, but I greatly prefer smaller cities, mountains, and lots of open space, so it's gotta be somewhere west of Denver I think. But living in DC for a few years would be pretty cool as long as I could get back.

This is one of the more pain in the ass decisions I've had to make this cycle, and having to make it in friggin' July sucks.

PRgradBYU
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Re: Georgetown vs. Utah

Postby PRgradBYU » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:51 pm

bruin91 wrote:Use your offer from Georgetown to loosen the stips and/or get more $$$ from Utah.


It's worth at least trying this. I would imagine leveraging your GULC scholarship could lead to the U at least matching GULC's $20k/year, and possibly loosening the stips a little bit. There's a pretty big difference between having $45k-$60k of debt and $130k of debt at graduation. That being said, if the U isn't willing to loosen the stip or increase its merit offer, you wouldn't be crazy to take GULC.

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StillIll
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Re: Georgetown vs. Utah

Postby StillIll » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:55 pm

I dunno man, this is a tough choice.

I think I might be leaning Utah since a) You're really comfortable here b) It's cheaper c) You want to end up back here and d) They're building that spiffed out new law building, just in time for your 3L year.

Did you apply to GW? I know they pride themselves on recruiting people from Utah and returning them back home to work.


I'm not convinced you couldn't make it back via Georgetown, but you may have to rely on connections you or your family have here, and ones you make in law school. I would maybe e-mail / call GULC and ask them if they have an alumni / an alumni network in Utah / how many (if any) graduates end up working in Utah

Also, I would definitely tell Utah about your new offer, and try and get better stipulations, for sure.

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WisemanAEKDB
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Re: Georgetown vs. Utah

Postby WisemanAEKDB » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:06 pm

After the conversations at the Utah c/o '16 bar meetup last night, I'm not sure how you could consider turning it down.

But in all seriousness, I think flexibility here is the key. If you went Utah, you wouldn't have to fight to come back here and you might enjoy a higher QOL due to low debt. This could allow you to take lower paying jobs without the feeling of risk. But hey, that's just me.

Being from Philly, I do not care for DC at all. In the end, go wherever you choose. Neither option will wreck you by any means. If it's Utah, I've got your next beer at the next meetup.

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buttes
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Re: Georgetown vs. Utah

Postby buttes » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:50 pm

If you're really committed to PI/gov work, Georgetown does have a strong LRAP program (100% of loans forgiven for qualified employment begun within 2 years of graduating and making less than 75k after 10 years).

I'm not really familiar with Utah, but according to a quick read here --LinkRemoved--, qualifying PI/gov employment would forgive $30k of your loans over 10 years, although the max income on the site doesn't seem to have been updated since 2008 (when it was ~54k).

If you end up in qualifying employment, GULC is basically free and Utah would be 15k-45k (assuming you get the full 30, I didn't read the calculation section above).

Of course, with either place there's always the chance of striking out on PI or ending up in the private sector, where GULC's 130 is significantly higher than the 45-75k of Utah.

BigZuck
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Re: Georgetown vs. Utah

Postby BigZuck » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:21 pm

How the F could Utah not give a stip free full ride to someone who is getting 20K merit aid a year at GULC?

Also GULC gonna GULC with the scholarship approach. What a weird cycle they have had.

This one is a toughie. I think if it were me I would probably roll the dice and go to GULC unless I was super duper committed to living and working in Utah basically forever. These schools are miles apart and GULC is just going to open more potential doors I would think (unless of course you really are ok with doing small law (I was going to say DUIs but maybe there's less of those) in BF Utah in which case I would just limit debt as much as possible).

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: Georgetown vs. Utah

Postby TheSpanishMain » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:21 am

buttes wrote:If you're really committed to PI/gov work, Georgetown does have a strong LRAP program (100% of loans forgiven for qualified employment begun within 2 years of graduating and making less than 75k after 10 years).



If I'm understanding this correctly, then this is actually pretty rough. Making <75k a year after ten years of working means a not great QOL. A lot of government jobs might start off at 45k a year, but you still get raises as you accumulate seniority. In federal employment, it's pretty common for someone to come as a GS-7 out of undergrad and be a GS-12 in 6-7 years. Just for reference, a GS-7 in DC makes 40 something a year, while a GS-12 makes 80 something.

I'm just extrapolating based on what I experienced in non-legal federal employment, but it would be very hard to not make 75k after 10 years of service, assuming you haven't hit some kind of ceiling based on not having sufficient education for promotion.

BigZuck wrote:How the F could Utah not give a stip free full ride to someone who is getting 20K merit aid a year at GULC?

Also GULC gonna GULC with the scholarship approach. What a weird cycle they have had.

This one is a toughie. I think if it were me I would probably roll the dice and go to GULC unless I was super duper committed to living and working in Utah basically forever. These schools are miles apart and GULC is just going to open more potential doors I would think (unless of course you really are ok with doing small law (I was going to say DUIs but maybe there's less of those) in BF Utah in which case I would just limit debt as much as possible).


Utah seems like a respectable regional. It's decently ranked and probably dominates it's small SLC based market. I don't see why the OP couldn't find legit employment if he has ties to the area and does reasonably well at Utah. But yeah, portability would be super limited I would think.

BigZuck
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Re: Georgetown vs. Utah

Postby BigZuck » Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:17 pm

TheSpanishMain wrote:
buttes wrote:If you're really committed to PI/gov work, Georgetown does have a strong LRAP program (100% of loans forgiven for qualified employment begun within 2 years of graduating and making less than 75k after 10 years).



If I'm understanding this correctly, then this is actually pretty rough. Making <75k a year after ten years of working means a not great QOL. A lot of government jobs might start off at 45k a year, but you still get raises as you accumulate seniority. In federal employment, it's pretty common for someone to come as a GS-7 out of undergrad and be a GS-12 in 6-7 years. Just for reference, a GS-7 in DC makes 40 something a year, while a GS-12 makes 80 something.

I'm just extrapolating based on what I experienced in non-legal federal employment, but it would be very hard to not make 75k after 10 years of service, assuming you haven't hit some kind of ceiling based on not having sufficient education for promotion.

BigZuck wrote:How the F could Utah not give a stip free full ride to someone who is getting 20K merit aid a year at GULC?

Also GULC gonna GULC with the scholarship approach. What a weird cycle they have had.

This one is a toughie. I think if it were me I would probably roll the dice and go to GULC unless I was super duper committed to living and working in Utah basically forever. These schools are miles apart and GULC is just going to open more potential doors I would think (unless of course you really are ok with doing small law (I was going to say DUIs but maybe there's less of those) in BF Utah in which case I would just limit debt as much as possible).


Utah seems like a respectable regional. It's decently ranked and probably dominates it's small SLC based market. I don't see why the OP couldn't find legit employment if he has ties to the area and does reasonably well at Utah. But yeah, portability would be super limited I would think.


Most respectable regionals are miles away from T14s in terms of placement

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buttes
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Re: Georgetown vs. Utah

Postby buttes » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:44 pm

TheSpanishMain wrote:If I'm understanding this correctly, then this is actually pretty rough. Making <75k a year after ten years of working means a not great QOL. A lot of government jobs might start off at 45k a year, but you still get raises as you accumulate seniority. In federal employment, it's pretty common for someone to come as a GS-7 out of undergrad and be a GS-12 in 6-7 years. Just for reference, a GS-7 in DC makes 40 something a year, while a GS-12 makes 80 something.

I'm just extrapolating based on what I experienced in non-legal federal employment, but it would be very hard to not make 75k after 10 years of service, assuming you haven't hit some kind of ceiling based on not having sufficient education for promotion.

$75k isn't a hard cutoff, it's just scales back from 100% covered above that level. I just looked and can't find where it dies off completely, but it is above 100k from memory. Also keep in mind that even if LRAP dies out, your loans are forgiven after 10 years in PI, and other than the LRAP years, you're still only paying IBR or PAYE amounts.

If you go PI/gov, it works great. But I'm not trying to shill, you still have to balance against having to pay the full amount back if you go another route or can't get PI.

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Re: Georgetown vs. Utah

Postby southwick » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:59 pm

TheSpanishMain wrote:Utah seems like a respectable regional. It's decently ranked and probably dominates it's small SLC based market.


Utah does not dominate SLC; at best it's going to split it with BYU. And that's before you factor in all the Mormon kids who went to BYU/UofU, then went to T14/T1 schools elsewhere, but want to come back home to SLC.

The right answer is still to leverage the G'town money to see if you can increase that UofU scholarship. As it stands, it seems like Georgetown is the safer choice, given the relatively higher shot at biglaw. Bottom half at Utah doesn't look pretty. Plus, if you let SLC firms know that you absolutely want to be back in Utah, they like snagging kids from T14s.

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Re: Georgetown vs. Utah

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:42 am

nickb285 wrote:
cusenation wrote:if you wanna go back to Utah anyway and don't want BigLaw...then I don't think GULC makes much sense for you. The stips at Utah are unfortunate, but they're not overly burdensome. 130k of GULC debt is admittedly lower than 200k+. I think you could manage that debt with a job at a smaller firm or PI in Utah..it's not necessarily BigLaw-or-Bust like 200k+ is. But it will nudge you towards BigLaw once the panic of repaying it settles in.

Is there any data abt GULC's placement in Utah? Is GULC well-regarded in Utah or the region? Personally I don't think it's worth it given your goals.


I don't know that there are enough people trying to go from GULC to Utah to have any significant amount of data. GULC is well-regarded here, as it is most places. GULC takes a lot of shit on TLS, but it's still a school that people know and respect, despite its issues.

$130k for a T14 seems like a great price, but "great price for a T14" and "great price for a school when you don't want biglaw" are slightly different realms. I dunno. This is a tough one for me, as GULC was kind of my long-shot dream school.


This is an ambitious statement. Georgetown can't even hold over 50% large firm employment using home market and NYC, you can't expect it to really have national reach in small markets for anyone at or below median. It might have a strong reputation nationwide among a lot of older attorneys, but it doesn't employ like a T13 -- and its definitely considered at a different price point as a result. No idea why others on this site persist with the obsolete "T14" bullshit from the middle of last decade. Figure of speech that dies hard, I suppose.

Unless you've got a T13 offer w/ money, I'd take the strong regional option (utah) if you can get the degree cheap.

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: Georgetown vs. Utah

Postby TheSpanishMain » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:13 am

southwick wrote:
TheSpanishMain wrote:Utah seems like a respectable regional. It's decently ranked and probably dominates it's small SLC based market.


Utah does not dominate SLC; at best it's going to split it with BYU. And that's before you factor in all the Mormon kids who went to BYU/UofU, then went to T14/T1 schools elsewhere, but want to come back home to SLC.


Yeah, I totally forgot about BYU. SLC, from what little I've heard anecdotally, seems pretty insular. I'm kind of debt averse, so I would still probably go for the cheaper degree in the area the OP wants to live, but that's just me.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Georgetown vs. Utah

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:40 am

I think GULCs LRAP for the win. Just spend your summers in Utah.

GULC w/ ties >>> UTAH in this case.

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nickb285
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Re: Georgetown vs. Utah

Postby nickb285 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:35 pm

So, a little bit of an update--my parents just offered to pay my COL if I go to Georgetown. They were already planning on helping me out a bit either way, but they told me that for a school like GULC they'd be willing to do more. So that means my total indebtedness at graduation with GULC is $105k, not $130k. I also sent the U an email asking for a scholarship adjustment, but I don't have high hopes.

Flying out to tour GULC next week.

PRgradBYU
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Re: Georgetown vs. Utah

Postby PRgradBYU » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:05 pm

nickb285 wrote:So, a little bit of an update--my parents just offered to pay my COL if I go to Georgetown. They were already planning on helping me out a bit either way, but they told me that for a school like GULC they'd be willing to do more. So that means my total indebtedness at graduation with GULC is $105k, not $130k. I also sent the U an email asking for a scholarship adjustment, but I don't have high hopes.

Flying out to tour GULC next week.


Your decision just became a no-brainer. Congrats!

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DoveBodyWash
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Re: Georgetown vs. Utah

Postby DoveBodyWash » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:07 pm

PRgradBYU wrote:
nickb285 wrote:So, a little bit of an update--my parents just offered to pay my COL if I go to Georgetown. They were already planning on helping me out a bit either way, but they told me that for a school like GULC they'd be willing to do more. So that means my total indebtedness at graduation with GULC is $105k, not $130k. I also sent the U an email asking for a scholarship adjustment, but I don't have high hopes.

Flying out to tour GULC next week.


Your decision just became a no-brainer. Congrats!

I would take GULC under these circumstances. Especially because you could keep debt under 100k if you got an SA and put some of the money towards tuition

BigZuck
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Re: Georgetown vs. Utah

Postby BigZuck » Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:32 pm

PRgradBYU wrote:
nickb285 wrote:So, a little bit of an update--my parents just offered to pay my COL if I go to Georgetown. They were already planning on helping me out a bit either way, but they told me that for a school like GULC they'd be willing to do more. So that means my total indebtedness at graduation with GULC is $105k, not $130k. I also sent the U an email asking for a scholarship adjustment, but I don't have high hopes.

Flying out to tour GULC next week.


Your decision just became a no-brainer. Congrats!


Yup, this.

Maybe email Utah and say they need to give you a full ride plus stipend or you're going to GULC and see what happens. But really, just going to GULC is probably the right call regardless.

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Nova
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Re: Georgetown vs. Utah

Postby Nova » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:19 pm

And they need to get rid of that awful tttop 40% stttip.

What a joke.

gulc ftw

DouglasDevelopment
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Re: Georgetown vs. Utah

Postby DouglasDevelopment » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:37 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
nickb285 wrote:
cusenation wrote:if you wanna go back to Utah anyway and don't want BigLaw...then I don't think GULC makes much sense for you. The stips at Utah are unfortunate, but they're not overly burdensome. 130k of GULC debt is admittedly lower than 200k+. I think you could manage that debt with a job at a smaller firm or PI in Utah..it's not necessarily BigLaw-or-Bust like 200k+ is. But it will nudge you towards BigLaw once the panic of repaying it settles in.

Is there any data abt GULC's placement in Utah? Is GULC well-regarded in Utah or the region? Personally I don't think it's worth it given your goals.


I don't know that there are enough people trying to go from GULC to Utah to have any significant amount of data. GULC is well-regarded here, as it is most places. GULC takes a lot of shit on TLS, but it's still a school that people know and respect, despite its issues.

$130k for a T14 seems like a great price, but "great price for a T14" and "great price for a school when you don't want biglaw" are slightly different realms. I dunno. This is a tough one for me, as GULC was kind of my long-shot dream school.


This is an ambitious statement. Georgetown can't even hold over 50% large firm employment using home market and NYC, you can't expect it to really have national reach in small markets for anyone at or below median. It might have a strong reputation nationwide among a lot of older attorneys, but it doesn't employ like a T13 -- and its definitely considered at a different price point as a result. No idea why others on this site persist with the obsolete "T14" bullshit from the middle of last decade. Figure of speech that dies hard, I suppose.

Unless you've got a T13 offer w/ money, I'd take the strong regional option (utah) if you can get the degree cheap.


NLJ250 numbers are the most important stat to take into account when choosing a school. That said, there's a problem with using GULC's lackluster NLJ numbers as a basis for your argument that it's less "national" than other T14: it doesn't account for the fact that GULC has to place 2 to 3 times the number of students. You think that Cornell would place anywhere near what it does if it had a graduating class of ~650?

GULC's NLJ numbers are bad, but it's not because T13 schools are held in higher regard by employers.

BigZuck
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Re: Georgetown vs. Utah

Postby BigZuck » Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:13 pm

DouglasDevelopment wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
nickb285 wrote:
cusenation wrote:if you wanna go back to Utah anyway and don't want BigLaw...then I don't think GULC makes much sense for you. The stips at Utah are unfortunate, but they're not overly burdensome. 130k of GULC debt is admittedly lower than 200k+. I think you could manage that debt with a job at a smaller firm or PI in Utah..it's not necessarily BigLaw-or-Bust like 200k+ is. But it will nudge you towards BigLaw once the panic of repaying it settles in.

Is there any data abt GULC's placement in Utah? Is GULC well-regarded in Utah or the region? Personally I don't think it's worth it given your goals.


I don't know that there are enough people trying to go from GULC to Utah to have any significant amount of data. GULC is well-regarded here, as it is most places. GULC takes a lot of shit on TLS, but it's still a school that people know and respect, despite its issues.

$130k for a T14 seems like a great price, but "great price for a T14" and "great price for a school when you don't want biglaw" are slightly different realms. I dunno. This is a tough one for me, as GULC was kind of my long-shot dream school.


This is an ambitious statement. Georgetown can't even hold over 50% large firm employment using home market and NYC, you can't expect it to really have national reach in small markets for anyone at or below median. It might have a strong reputation nationwide among a lot of older attorneys, but it doesn't employ like a T13 -- and its definitely considered at a different price point as a result. No idea why others on this site persist with the obsolete "T14" bullshit from the middle of last decade. Figure of speech that dies hard, I suppose.

Unless you've got a T13 offer w/ money, I'd take the strong regional option (utah) if you can get the degree cheap.


NLJ250 numbers are the most important stat to take into account when choosing a school. That said, there's a problem with using GULC's lackluster NLJ numbers as a basis for your argument that it's less "national" than other T14: it doesn't account for the fact that GULC has to place 2 to 3 times the number of students. You think that Cornell would place anywhere near what it does if it had a graduating class of ~650?

GULC's NLJ numbers are bad, but it's not because T13 schools are held in higher regard by employers.


I feel like there's an LSAT style flawed reasoning question in here somewhere...




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