Chicago-Kent or University of Illinois

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bmb127
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Chicago-Kent or University of Illinois

Postby bmb127 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:11 am

I'm accepted at both Chicago-Kent and University of Illinois. I have a fair amount of business connections in Chicago that won't be lost by attending either school. My only issue with UIUC is that my girlfriend is an undergrad there. I aim to practice corporate law.

timbs4339
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Re: Chicago-Kent or University of Illinois

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:24 am

What do you think "corporate law" is?

Also before rad comes in here:

In order to receive the best feedback in this forum, please provide as much of the following information in your original post as possible:

-The schools you are considering
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Here is a helpful calculator.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
-Your general career goals
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
-How many times you have taken the LSAT

rad lulz
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Re: Chicago-Kent or University of Illinois

Postby rad lulz » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:30 am

Agree w all of the above

bmb127
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Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:36 pm

Re: Chicago-Kent or University of Illinois

Postby bmb127 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:40 am

My idea of corporate law is probably a little inaccurate. I imagine working "in-house" for a company. A lot of reading and writing. My knowledge of it is limited, but I have a background in business and have friends that are lawyers who specialize in M&A, insurance (allstate), and another in McDonald's Corp. All make good money and seem to enjoy their work, although I am aware I should not expect their situations. If you or another could enlighten me as to what else it consists of, I would appreciate it.

-Considering only Chicago-Kent and University of Illinois
-COA for UIUC - Approx. $150,000 (Scholarship is 25% of tuition) COA for Chicago-Kent - Approx. $180,000 (Scholarship is $10,000/year)
-Financing through loans, although it's likely my family will just cover the costs. (I made a document on how I plan to finance it without the assistance of my family).
-I am from the suburbs of Chicago, and work in Chicago. I work at a law firm I enjoy and respect very much. My ties here won't be jeopardized based on attendance outside of Chicago. I would like to work in Chicago as well
-My career goals include a federal clerkship after Law School which I have lined up, and my end game would be something corporate (not sure on specifics yet). Possible med mal if I can't jump straight into a corporation
-LSAT 160 GPA 3.15
-I've taken the LSAT one time. Don't really want to take it again, I feel it's best to just keep moving forward.

rad lulz
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Re: Chicago-Kent or University of Illinois

Postby rad lulz » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:45 am

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Last edited by rad lulz on Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

timbs4339
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Re: Chicago-Kent or University of Illinois

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:51 am

bmb127 wrote:My idea of corporate law is probably a little inaccurate. I imagine working "in-house" for a company. A lot of reading and writing. My knowledge of it is limited, but I have a background in business and have friends that are lawyers who specialize in M&A, insurance (allstate), and another in McDonald's Corp. All make good money and seem to enjoy their work, although I am aware I should not expect their situations. If you or another could enlighten me as to what else it consists of, I would appreciate it.

-Considering only Chicago-Kent and University of Illinois
-COA for UIUC - Approx. $150,000 (Scholarship is 25% of tuition) COA for Chicago-Kent - Approx. $180,000 (Scholarship is $10,000/year)
-Financing through loans, although it's likely my family will just cover the costs. (I made a document on how I plan to finance it without the assistance of my family).
-I am from the suburbs of Chicago, and work in Chicago. I work at a law firm I enjoy and respect very much. My ties here won't be jeopardized based on attendance outside of Chicago. I would like to work in Chicago as well
-My career goals include a federal clerkship after Law School which I have lined up, and my end game would be something corporate (not sure on specifics yet). Possible med mal if I can't jump straight into a corporation
-LSAT 160 GPA 3.15
-I've taken the LSAT one time. Don't really want to take it again, I feel it's best to just keep moving forward.


You're kind of clueless on how legal emplyoment works.

You can't go in-house for a corporation out of law school because you won't know anything about corporate law. This is true even if you take every single "corporate law" class that your school offers.

So what you have to do is work at a large law firm in one of their transactional practices, like M+A, securities offerings, or fund formation, for a few years to get experience. The problem is that neither school places very well in large corporate law firms and you'll have to be top of your class after your first year. Since you should assume that you will finish median, that means you will be out of the running.

The insurance stuff that you mention is a very different animal- that's litigation. Now you could try to get a job at a "med mal" firm doing either plaintiff's side work or insurance defense, but those jobs don't pay very well. Think around 60K starting. And you just have too much debt to service on a 60K salary. The best course would be to retake the LSAT and try to get a close to full scholarship. You have a business background, so think of it like an investment: with even a 5 point increase in your score you could be looking at six figures of scholarship money.

I highly doubt you have a federal clerkship lined up already because those jobs are so competitive (Chicago-Kent placed 0.4% of its class in federal clerkships- that's probably one person). You may not want to get too specific, but try to use a 1-5 scale (where 1 is a federal judge telling you he'd consider your application for a POST-LAW SCHOOL clerkship, not a summer internship, and 5 is you saved his entire family from certain death). How certain are you that this judge will hire you after law school?

bmb127
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Re: Chicago-Kent or University of Illinois

Postby bmb127 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:56 am

Finding employment with good pay shouldn't be an issue. Finding employment in house might take a little time, but I will be fine in the mean time. Just need to know which school is better and why. I feel it's about an even tradeoff.

Clerkship, about 2-2.5; it shouldn't be a problem either.

rad lulz
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Re: Chicago-Kent or University of Illinois

Postby rad lulz » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:00 am

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Last edited by rad lulz on Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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hephaestus
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Re: Chicago-Kent or University of Illinois

Postby hephaestus » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:02 am

bmb127 wrote:Finding employment with good pay shouldn't be an issue. Finding employment in house might take a little time, but I will be fine in the mean time. Just need to know which school is better and why. I feel it's about an even tradeoff.

Clerkship, about 2-2.5; it shouldn't be a problem either.

What makes you think that you have a clerkship lined up pre-LS? Especially from schools of this caliber, that seems like a dangerous assumption.

bmb127
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Re: Chicago-Kent or University of Illinois

Postby bmb127 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:03 am

Also, I may consider working at the firm I am currently at. Just depends on what I'm offered. It all really comes down to salary. I just need to know if I will be better off in terms of an education and experience at U of I or Chicago-Kent, and why. Also, this is ridiculous but I would appreciate input, do you think attending the same school as my present girlfriend would be a mistake?

bmb127
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Re: Chicago-Kent or University of Illinois

Postby bmb127 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:07 am

He's a friend of my fathers and a business associate of my Uncle's. I play golf with them occasionally along with my current employer, who is the main shareholder of the firm I currently work at. Not a large firm, about 79 attorneys, but they all do very well. We discussed a course of action early on and continue to discuss it. Broad picture: law school, federal clerkship, employment either with my currently employer or another depending on what I'm offered. I would never have considered possibly taking on such a ridiculous amount of loans if I had not lined something up that I thought to be solid.

Paul Campos
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Re: Chicago-Kent or University of Illinois

Postby Paul Campos » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:09 am

Questions:

(1) How old are you?

(2) What are you doing in your present job and how long have you had it?

(3) This is for this fall, right? I.E. eight weeks from now? How much research have you put into this whole law school thing?

timbs4339
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Re: Chicago-Kent or University of Illinois

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:10 am

bmb127 wrote:Finding employment with good pay shouldn't be an issue. Finding employment in house might take a little time, but I will be fine in the mean time. Just need to know which school is better and why. I feel it's about an even tradeoff.

Clerkship, about 2-2.5; it shouldn't be a problem either.


You're absolutely, 100% wrong.

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... ook_author

This is a story about the Editor in Chief of the Chicago-Kent law review. He was unemployed after graduation. This guy was top of his class and could not find any job, never mind one that with "good pay."

I can't stress how poor of a decision you are making. What do you expect your starting salary to be? How will you find in-house employment without biglaw experience? Why, if so many of these students are unemployed or making 50K, do you think you will turn out differently?

If you did not answer 5 to that question, no, you do not have a clerkship lined up. That clerkship is contingent on being top 5% of your class at Illinois or top 1% at Chicago-Kent just like everyone else the judge hires. You are reading too much into your relationship with this judge.

timbs4339
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Re: Chicago-Kent or University of Illinois

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:11 am

bmb127 wrote:He's a friend of my fathers and a business associate of my Uncle's. I play golf with them occasionally along with my current employer, who is the main shareholder of the firm I currently work at. Not a large firm, about 79 attorneys, but they all do very well. We discussed a course of action early on and continue to discuss it. Broad picture: law school, federal clerkship, employment either with my currently employer or another depending on what I'm offered. I would never have considered possibly taking on such a ridiculous amount of loans if I had not lined something up that I thought to be solid.


I work for a judge. He has dozens of these "friends of the family" who went to law school. He hires his clerks based on grades and school rank, just like everyone else.

You do not have something lined up unless it is in writing. Whatever you think you have lined up is contingent on unlikely performance at these schools. If you have such good connections, then they should pay you to go to law school. That you are debt-financing this is a huge red-flag.

californiauser
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Re: Chicago-Kent or University of Illinois

Postby californiauser » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:15 am

bmb127 wrote:Finding employment with good pay shouldn't be an issue. Finding employment in house might take a little time, but I will be fine in the mean time. Just need to know which school is better and why. I feel it's about an even tradeoff.

Clerkship, about 2-2.5; it shouldn't be a problem either.


Sounds like he's got everything figured out guys!

Why even post in this section if you have a job guranteed post-ls? Go to the cheapest school you get into for as close to free as possible. None of your options are "prestigious," so it really will not matter at all.

rad lulz
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Re: Chicago-Kent or University of Illinois

Postby rad lulz » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:16 am

timbs4339 wrote:
bmb127 wrote:He's a friend of my fathers and a business associate of my Uncle's. I play golf with them occasionally along with my current employer, who is the main shareholder of the firm I currently work at. Not a large firm, about 79 attorneys, but they all do very well. We discussed a course of action early on and continue to discuss it. Broad picture: law school, federal clerkship, employment either with my currently employer or another depending on what I'm offered. I would never have considered possibly taking on such a ridiculous amount of loans if I had not lined something up that I thought to be solid.


I work for a judge. He has dozens of these "friends of the family" who went to law school. He hires his clerks based on grades and school rank, just like everyone else.

You do not have something lined up unless it is in writing. Whatever you think you have lined up is contingent on unlikely performance at these schools. If you have such good connections, then they should pay you to go to law school. That you are debt-financing this is a huge red-flag.

Pretty much this

If it's really a sure thing (and I doubt it), just ask these dudes where to go

I know more than one person who has been burned by a situation like this

When the firm says "we would love to have you," the unspoken assumption being that you need to get good enough grades

They don't make the top grades and they're out in the cold

bmb127
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Re: Chicago-Kent or University of Illinois

Postby bmb127 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:20 am

1) 24
2) Worked here for about 3 years in total
3) Correct. A good amount.

I understand the skepticism.

I agree, it is a huge red-flag, and I'm sure if I don't do well in school he would certainly reconsider his proposal. But, I know them and how they work a bit. My Uncle is helping pull the strings a bit and wants to see that I would finance it myself if it came to it. I'm fairly certain he will pay it off.

Yes, nothing is set in stone. Everyone could decide they want nothing to do with me. I don't think it'll happen though.

Giddy-Up
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Re: Chicago-Kent or University of Illinois

Postby Giddy-Up » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:25 am

timbs4339 wrote:
bmb127 wrote:Finding employment with good pay shouldn't be an issue. Finding employment in house might take a little time, but I will be fine in the mean time. Just need to know which school is better and why. I feel it's about an even tradeoff.

Clerkship, about 2-2.5; it shouldn't be a problem either.


You're absolutely, 100% wrong.

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... ook_author

This is a story about the Editor in Chief of the Chicago-Kent law review. He was unemployed after graduation. This guy was top of his class and could not find any job, never mind one that with "good pay."

I can't stress how poor of a decision you are making. What do you expect your starting salary to be? How will you find in-house employment without biglaw experience? Why, if so many of these students are unemployed or making 50K, do you think you will turn out differently?

If you did not answer 5 to that question, no, you do not have a clerkship lined up. That clerkship is contingent on being top 5% of your class at Illinois or top 1% at Chicago-Kent just like everyone else the judge hires. You are reading too much into your relationship with this judge.


I am a CK grad and I know the guy you are talking about. He was EIC, but he was not at the top of the class - he freely admitted as much. I believe he was somewhere around top 1/3 to top 40% - he also now works at Kirkland and Ellis. Look, Kent at sticker is not a good idea - however - it gets blown way out of proportion because of that story and people assuming that he was top of his class.

Please don't misinterpret this as me going against the general advice here. You need to do well at Kent, mainly top 10% to have a shot at Big firms. Kent gives out some very generous scholarships - I was lucky enough to get one but that money came from others. If you are working at a firm, go at night to Kent. Although a lot of people think part time is a trick people use to game the system, there are a legitimate number of people who go at night who are working full time. Generally you get the same professors and you get the same degree. It can substantially reduce your debt load.

timbs4339
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Re: Chicago-Kent or University of Illinois

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:30 am

bmb127 wrote:1) 24
2) Worked here for about 3 years in total
3) Correct. A good amount.

I understand the skepticism.

I agree, it is a huge red-flag, and I'm sure if I don't do well in school he would certainly reconsider his proposal. But, I know them and how they work a bit. My Uncle is helping pull the strings a bit and wants to see that I would finance it myself if it came to it. I'm fairly certain he will pay it off.

Yes, nothing is set in stone. Everyone could decide they want nothing to do with me. I don't think it'll happen though.


It raised red flags the minute you said you had connections but that you'd be taking on $150K or more of debt. Usually, people who actually have strong connections do not have to take on debt- everything is certain.

Relying on other people for huge life decisions is a sure way to get yourself into trouble. It's even worse because the potential downside here is catastrophic while the upside of going this year is very small. What I would do is explain that you just don't feel ready this year. Make some crack about wanting to enjoy life or something. Then retake the LSAT, twice if need be. Get a large scholarship with low debt or get into a much better school.

Now you've taken control of the situation. If you can get a biglaw job on your own, great. If your connections pull through for you, great. If not (and based on what you've told me I'm not optimistic), then you've limited the damage.

Your uncle and the other connections may not even know what they are doing. They may think they can hire you in three years. They may think that you're a smart kid and will get top grades. They may not know that less than 2% of Illinois and less than 0.5% of Chicago Kent's class got a federal clerkship. So you have to work around that while being polite.

rad lulz
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Re: Chicago-Kent or University of Illinois

Postby rad lulz » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:32 am

bmb127 wrote:1) 24
2) Worked here for about 3 years in total
3) Correct. A good amount.

I understand the skepticism.

I agree, it is a huge red-flag, and I'm sure if I don't do well in school he would certainly reconsider his proposal. But, I know them and how they work a bit. My Uncle is helping pull the strings a bit and wants to see that I would finance it myself if it came to it. I'm fairly certain he will pay it off.

Yes, nothing is set in stone. Everyone could decide they want nothing to do with me. I don't think it'll happen though.

Small sample size, but I know 3 people who have done something like this (2-3 years work at a firm, firm told em they'd be happy to have them back).

One went to an elite school but didn't get good grades. Didn't even get an interview.

One went to a TTT, made great grades, transferred to a better school, and the firm nixed him because they didn't like that he went to a TTT

One went to CCN, got good grades, and got the offer

timbs4339
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Re: Chicago-Kent or University of Illinois

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:33 am

Giddy-Up wrote:I am a CK grad and I know the guy you are talking about. He was EIC, but he was not at the top of the class - he freely admitted as much. I believe he was somewhere around top 1/3 to top 40% - he also now works at Kirkland and Ellis. Look, Kent at sticker is not a good idea - however - it gets blown way out of proportion because of that story and people assuming that he was top of his class.


Must have had a baller write-on then.

bmb127
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Re: Chicago-Kent or University of Illinois

Postby bmb127 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:34 am

I think you're right. That would be the safest and likely a better outcome.

bmb127
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Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:36 pm

Re: Chicago-Kent or University of Illinois

Postby bmb127 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:36 am

Assuming everything falls through, would you recommend going to U of I or Chicago-Kent in my current position?

rad lulz
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Re: Chicago-Kent or University of Illinois

Postby rad lulz » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:36 am

bmb127 wrote:Assuming everything falls through, would you recommend going to U of I or Chicago-Kent in my current position?

Like I said above, neither

timbs4339
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Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Chicago-Kent or University of Illinois

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:36 am

rad lulz wrote:
bmb127 wrote:1) 24
2) Worked here for about 3 years in total
3) Correct. A good amount.

I understand the skepticism.

I agree, it is a huge red-flag, and I'm sure if I don't do well in school he would certainly reconsider his proposal. But, I know them and how they work a bit. My Uncle is helping pull the strings a bit and wants to see that I would finance it myself if it came to it. I'm fairly certain he will pay it off.

Yes, nothing is set in stone. Everyone could decide they want nothing to do with me. I don't think it'll happen though.

Small sample size, but I know 3 people who have done something like this (2-3 years work at a firm, firm told em they'd be happy to have them back).

One went to an elite school but didn't get good grades. Didn't even get an interview.

One went to a TTT, made great grades, transferred to a better school, and the firm nixed him because they didn't like that he went to a TTT

One went to CCN, got good grades, and got the offer


I worked for the head of a national firm's office. Co-managing partner of the firm. Applied for an associate job and was dinged after the callback.

The thing about firms is that each partner has so many connections like this that if they gave them all preferences they wouldn't need to conduct any interviews. They could fill their associate classes with so-and-so's nephew, that former paralegal, or some big client's son-in-law.
Last edited by timbs4339 on Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.




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