UF vs UVA? Forum

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

I was thinking that if my score does not improve I would ED to Penn for their round 1 while submitting RD apps to the rest of the t14, then switching my RD to ED for UVA if Penn falls through.

However, I really like the idea of getting to know if I'm in within 15 days, and from the looks of it online, UVA places more in the firms I'm interested in than Penn does. Also, UVA places in DC more than Penn does and DC is a close second place location for me.

^ Should that matter to me?

I never really had the college life atmosphere, so the lifestyle of UVA is tempting to me, however Penn's big law stats are very appealing. Yet UVA's 50% big law is comforting as long as I'm above median I should have a shot at Miami big law, while getting about the top 1/3 leaves me pretty comfortable in any location I would want to work in.

I wouldn't mind taking on the debt, so either one at sticker is OK with me.

What it comes down to is where would i rather be? I don't know. I like the water/the beach/ the warm sun, and i like the fact that UVA has attractive students (from what i hear) and they all party a lot and dont take school to seriously (on the outside that is). IDK much about Penn except that it is a wealthy northeastern school, that is surrounded by a bunch of other schools -- and that ivy prestige.

Any insight into these dilemas would be great.

UVA places very slightly better than Penn in DC. It depends on the firm. Some firms have a lower class rank cutoff for UVA than for Penn. Others rate them pretty much exactly equally.

Penn places significantly better in NYC and in Philly. The two schools place pretty much comparably everywhere else.

I would say pick Penn unless you are absolutely sure that you're shooting for DC. Worth noting that DC is pretty difficult to get from either place--you'll need to be top third. Don't put any stock in the "laid back party" thing at UVA--law school is law school, and people will drink hard and study hard wherever you go.

I'd say ED to Penn come September 1, and if you whiff ED to UVA, assuming your score doesn't improve and assuming you're okay with paying sticker at either one. But, as untar said, you have to make peace with the fact that you may very well end up in NYC from either school.

[homie1515]

Plus, I'd say the clerkship numbers aren't large enough to play a significant factor, unless one school had a particularly high % of SCOTUS clerks (which I doubt, though if anyone can find an easy-to-read source of the raw data, I'd be interested), since the yare all within 5% points of each other. If anything, I've heard lots of CLS students self-select out of clerkships as many of the target firms are largely transactional, for which clerkships confer less benefit, though that may be pretty speculative as well. Either way, it shouldn't matter as biglaw and federal clerkships are grouped together for "quality jobs" purposes (I believe, please correct me if I'm wrong). So I can understand Penn's higher ranking since firm prestige is discounted, and they did better on raw biglaw+clerkship numbers. But CLS was 8-10% higher in that metric than UVA and Duke, so it can only be due to 2 things:

1) The % active judges and scotus clerks number. I'm fairly certain these are such a big part of the rankings solely to ensure Yale would be #1 and Harvard and Stanford right behind. For everyone else, simply having 1 scotus clerk, vs others having 0, could throw things off, since they make up a decent chunk of potential points. I'm not sure how the judges numbers are computed, but wouldn't be surprised if there were similar issues.

2) The cost. Yes, we know it costs more to live in NYC than college towns. The reasons as to why this inclusion is really stupid have been detailed many times before, though I can repeat it if necessary.


..but back to the OP, depending on what score he comes back with, opting to either ED Penn or UVA may be the best bet for a starting move, so OP, I'd recommend you think about which one you'd prefer of the 2, given their markets, and if you'd be willing to sign on for sticker to go to one of them rather than wait out other options (though significant money at another T14 probably isn't too likely). Have we brought up Duke in this discussion? Do they just offer little-to-no benefit to ED'ing?

eta: and I'm not even touching this "near guarantee" argument as it seems silly and pointless. the numbers are what they are. assigning some generic label to percentages when we have the raw numbers accomplishes nothing.

I was thinking that if my score does not improve I would ED to Penn for their round 1 while submitting RD apps to the rest of the t14, then switching my RD to ED for UVA if Penn falls through.

However, I really like the idea of getting to know if I'm in within 15 days, and from the looks of it online, UVA places more in the firms I'm interested in than Penn does. Also, UVA places in DC more than Penn does and DC is a close second place location for me.

^ Should that matter to me?

I never really had the college life atmosphere, so the lifestyle of UVA is tempting to me, however Penn's big law stats are very appealing. Yet UVA's 50% big law is comforting as long as I'm above median I should have a shot at Miami big law, while getting about the top 1/3 leaves me pretty comfortable in any location I would want to work in.

I wouldn't mind taking on the debt, so either one at sticker is OK with me.

What it comes down to is where would i rather be? I don't know. I like the water/the beach/ the warm sun, and i like the fact that UVA has attractive students (from what i hear) and they all party a lot and dont take school to seriously (on the outside that is). IDK much about Penn except that it is a wealthy northeastern school, that is surrounded by a bunch of other schools -- and that ivy prestige.

Any insight into these dilemas would be great.

It seems for most purposes you would prefer UVA to Penn. At 62% biglaw + federal clerkship, UVA is certainly good. Penn at 77% is even better. But keep in mind that for Penn, it's a much greater % NY, and you will definitely have to target NY firms to make use of that %. Keep in mind that, either way, if you strike out at sticker, that's going to really suck. If the thought of working in NYC is unbearable and you can live with UVA's lower placement, ED UVA on the first day, and you will know very early on, and then be able to make another move still very early. If you'd prefer Penn's better placement numbers, knowing there's a decent chance you'd have to work in NYC for a while, start with Penn.

Tell me if im doing this right... For Penn it is 77% but of that 77%, 38..9% is in New York Or 29.95% of that 77% is NY based jobs, so that leaves me with 47.05% at a job outside of NY...

For UVA's 62% 14% is NY based jobs, so doing the same math leaves me with 53.32% at Employment outside of NY... So if I really dont want to work in NY but would work almost anywhere else UVA is the correct choice, despite Penn's superior numbers.

Does that look right? Or am i way off?

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

If you absolutely, positively don't want to be in NYC, then ED to UVA, as long as you're accepting you may get absolutely screwed if you whiff on both DC and Miami.

[homie1515]

I was thinking that if my score does not improve I would ED to Penn for their round 1 while submitting RD apps to the rest of the t14, then switching my RD to ED for UVA if Penn falls through.

However, I really like the idea of getting to know if I'm in within 15 days, and from the looks of it online, UVA places more in the firms I'm interested in than Penn does. Also, UVA places in DC more than Penn does and DC is a close second place location for me.

^ Should that matter to me?

I never really had the college life atmosphere, so the lifestyle of UVA is tempting to me, however Penn's big law stats are very appealing. Yet UVA's 50% big law is comforting as long as I'm above median I should have a shot at Miami big law, while getting about the top 1/3 leaves me pretty comfortable in any location I would want to work in.

I wouldn't mind taking on the debt, so either one at sticker is OK with me.

What it comes down to is where would i rather be? I don't know. I like the water/the beach/ the warm sun, and i like the fact that UVA has attractive students (from what i hear) and they all party a lot and dont take school to seriously (on the outside that is). IDK much about Penn except that it is a wealthy northeastern school, that is surrounded by a bunch of other schools -- and that ivy prestige.

Any insight into these dilemas would be great.

UVA places very slightly better than Penn in DC. It depends on the firm. Some firms have a lower class rank cutoff for UVA than for Penn. Others rate them pretty much exactly equally.

Penn places significantly better in NYC and in Philly. The two schools place pretty much comparably everywhere else.

I would say pick Penn unless you are absolutely sure that you're shooting for DC. Worth noting that DC is pretty difficult to get from either place--you'll need to be top third. Don't put any stock in the "laid back party" thing at UVA--law school is law school, and people will drink hard and study hard wherever you go.

I'd say ED to Penn come September 1, and if you whiff ED to UVA, assuming your score doesn't improve and assuming you're okay with paying sticker at either one. But, as untar said, you have to make peace with the fact that you may very well end up in NYC from either school.

So if I focus on DC being my number 1 choice, because Miami seems to be a crap shoot either way, UVA is the better option?

Also, if i had to end up in NY i would go there. I'm not going to say Im DC or Miami or Bust, but I would prefer to avoid NY at all costs, unless it is necessary.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

NYC usually is, in fact, necessary if you don't have good ties to a decent secondary market. For a lot of students, NYC is the only Biglaw that will take them.

UVA will do a little better in DC. But you have to acknowledge that statistically, you probably won't get Biglaw there, as only the top third does.

[homie1515]

You don't think there's reason to maintain skepticism? Linked here is a 3.0/171 resident waitlisted six years ago. Here's a 3.53/173 waitlisted seven years ago. Yes, it's just two guys, and yes, it was a while ago. But seeing as the medians were pretty much the same, you would have thought these guys would probably be in. Point being, we're dealing with such a small sample size (n=5?) that any counterexample could reasonably blow a hole in the "guarantee" notion. I think if you assert something that seems counterintuitive (<25% GPA, 50% LSAT non-URM is a "near-guarantee"), you need good data to suggest so. I just don't think we have it. I could show you a bunch of other ED splitters at supposedly "splitter-friendly" schools who weren't accepted ED, and that's not including a dozen from CLS and NYU.

Point being, data certainly suggests his chances are good. But there are too few data points and too many counterexamples to believe it's a "near-guarantee."

I'm not sure why you're making a big deal out of my definition of "near-guarantee." You called 3.83+/176+ a "near-guarantee" at Harvard in the other thread, when LSN shows 91%. I don't dispute that because I think that's a high enough percentage to say that, even though I'm one of the counterexamples.



Examples from other schools are completely irrelevant to UVA's admissions practices. The counterexamples you found are from 7 years ago, before UVA started gaming the rankings. The dean of admissions was different. A lot has changed in 7 years. Of course I wish I had more datapoints. But when it's 15/15, even if OP gets rejected, that's 15/16 or 93.75%. And with applications trending down, all signs point to UVA being more lenient--not less.

No, I don't think it's a complete guarantee. But I do think the data supports a 3.3/170 having an extremely good chance. I'm estimating like 80%. So I personally would call it a "near-guarantee." That's the way I would use the term.

"15 datapoints in the last 4 cycles all getting in? Yeah, not a guarantee, but very good chance. Near-guarantee."

Very well said. MO, you don't even have any data to back up your pedantic argument.

OP, only ED UVA if you are comfortable paying sticker there. UVA ED is your best chance of a T10 acceptance. You will probably get $60k from Vanderbilt. If you can raise your LSAT 1 point to be above their 75th percentile, you will get $75k. This is assuming their merit scholarship offers and percentiles stay the same after this cycle. They should only get better.

I just read this one... How does everyone feel about Sticker UVA vs Vandy with 60k-75k?

[untar614]

You don't think there's reason to maintain skepticism? Linked here is a 3.0/171 resident waitlisted six years ago. Here's a 3.53/173 waitlisted seven years ago. Yes, it's just two guys, and yes, it was a while ago. But seeing as the medians were pretty much the same, you would have thought these guys would probably be in. Point being, we're dealing with such a small sample size (n=5?) that any counterexample could reasonably blow a hole in the "guarantee" notion. I think if you assert something that seems counterintuitive (<25% GPA, 50% LSAT non-URM is a "near-guarantee"), you need good data to suggest so. I just don't think we have it. I could show you a bunch of other ED splitters at supposedly "splitter-friendly" schools who weren't accepted ED, and that's not including a dozen from CLS and NYU.

Point being, data certainly suggests his chances are good. But there are too few data points and too many counterexamples to believe it's a "near-guarantee."

I'm not sure why you're making a big deal out of my definition of "near-guarantee." You called 3.83+/176+ a "near-guarantee" at Harvard in the other thread, when LSN shows 91%. I don't dispute that because I think that's a high enough percentage to say that, even though I'm one of the counterexamples.




Examples from other schools are completely irrelevant to UVA's admissions practices. The counterexamples you found are from 7 years ago, before UVA started gaming the rankings. The dean of admissions was different. A lot has changed in 7 years. Of course I wish I had more datapoints. But when it's 15/15, even if OP gets rejected, that's 15/16 or 93.75%. And with applications trending down, all signs point to UVA being more lenient--not less.

No, I don't think it's a complete guarantee. But I do think the data supports a 3.3/170 having an extremely good chance. I'm estimating like 80%. So I personally would call it a "near-guarantee." That's the way I would use the term.

"15 datapoints in the last 4 cycles all getting in? Yeah, not a guarantee, but very good chance. Near-guarantee."

Very well said. MO, you don't even have any data to back up your pedantic argument.

OP, only ED UVA if you are comfortable paying sticker there. UVA ED is your best chance of a T10 acceptance. You will probably get $60k from Vanderbilt. If you can raise your LSAT 1 point to be above their 75th percentile, you will get $75k. This is assuming their merit scholarship offers and percentiles stay the same after this cycle. They should only get better.

I just read this one... How does everyone feel about Sticker UVA vs Vandy with 60k-75k?

If you want biglaw, I'd still go with UVA. Even with 75k at Vandy, that's still over 150k of debt to pay off, and that'll pretty much be guaranteed PAYE territory if you're making 60k or less. While Nashville isn't expensive, you can live really cheaply in Charlottesville if you can get roommates, which helps defray some of the excess cost.

[homie1515]

I'm not sure why you're making a big deal out of my definition of "near-guarantee." You called 3.83+/176+ a "near-guarantee" at Harvard in the other thread, when LSN shows 91%. I don't dispute that because I think that's a high enough percentage to say that, even though I'm one of the counterexamples.




Examples from other schools are completely irrelevant to UVA's admissions practices. The counterexamples you found are from 7 years ago, before UVA started gaming the rankings. The dean of admissions was different. A lot has changed in 7 years. Of course I wish I had more datapoints. But when it's 15/15, even if OP gets rejected, that's 15/16 or 93.75%. And with applications trending down, all signs point to UVA being more lenient--not less.

No, I don't think it's a complete guarantee. But I do think the data supports a 3.3/170 having an extremely good chance. I'm estimating like 80%. So I personally would call it a "near-guarantee." That's the way I would use the term.

"15 datapoints in the last 4 cycles all getting in? Yeah, not a guarantee, but very good chance. Near-guarantee."

Very well said. MO, you don't even have any data to back up your pedantic argument.

OP, only ED UVA if you are comfortable paying sticker there. UVA ED is your best chance of a T10 acceptance. You will probably get $60k from Vanderbilt. If you can raise your LSAT 1 point to be above their 75th percentile, you will get $75k. This is assuming their merit scholarship offers and percentiles stay the same after this cycle. They should only get better.

I just read this one... How does everyone feel about Sticker UVA vs Vandy with 60k-75k?

If you want biglaw, I'd still go with UVA. Even with 75k at Vandy, that's still over 150k of debt to pay off, and that'll pretty much be guaranteed PAYE territory if you're making 60k or less. While Nashville isn't expensive, you can live really cheaply in Charlottesville if you can get roommates, which helps defray some of the excess cost.

awesome... thanks for all the help

[mvonh001]

Thanks for everyone in this thread, as this is my exact situation. Only I'm a 3.31 going to graduate with a 3.37, and I have just taken the LSAT for the first time... Hoping for a 170 so I can ED to UVA, or higher lol, but I'd rather hope for less and get more then hope for more and get less. O well. Ill let you all know tomorrow.

[homie1515]

Got stuck with a 170 again, I may retake in October though.

[untar614]

Not a bad plan if you can swing it. Even if not, ED'ing UVA might not be bad, though an extra 2 points would be really substantial.

[homie1515]

Not a bad plan if you can swing it. Even if not, ED'ing UVA might not be bad, though an extra 2 points would be really substantial.

How would you feel about UF at a full ride, vs UVA at sticker?

[untar614]

Not a bad plan if you can swing it. Even if not, ED'ing UVA might not be bad, though an extra 2 points would be really substantial.

How would you feel about UF at a full ride, vs UVA at sticker?

It really depends on what you want to get out of this law school venture. For me, I wouldn't (and I went to UF undergrad, so I got friends in gainesville) because biglaw is really unlikely. If you do get a legit lawyer job out of UF (and the numbers aren't great), it'll likely be a mediocre one. For me, that's just not something I'm at all interested in, and would pursue other options if that's what I was looking at. If you mostly just want to be in florida, and don't mind working in a small firm for 50-60k, then it's not bad and not a huge risk if things don't work out money-wise (though it would still have been 3 years and opportunity cost gone). It's all about goals.

[homie1515]

Not a bad plan if you can swing it. Even if not, ED'ing UVA might not be bad, though an extra 2 points would be really substantial.

How would you feel about UF at a full ride, vs UVA at sticker?

It really depends on what you want to get out of this law school venture. For me, I wouldn't (and I went to UF undergrad, so I got friends in gainesville) because biglaw is really unlikely. If you do get a legit lawyer job out of UF (and the numbers aren't great), it'll likely be a mediocre one. For me, that's just not something I'm at all interested in, and would pursue other options if that's what I was looking at. If you mostly just want to be in florida, and don't mind working in a small firm for 50-60k, then it's not bad and not a huge risk if things don't work out money-wise (though it would still have been 3 years and opportunity cost gone). It's all about goals.

My goals are to end up in Miami making 100k disposable income... Big law is my only way to get there, and the best way to get that big law job would be UVA (because only 10% of UF grads get big law jobs?)

[Wahoos]

Side note: If there are 40k graduates for 40 SCOTUS clerkships per term, then the average law student has a 1 in 1000 chance of obtaining one. Per standard actuarial tables, the chance that a man in his mid-twenties dies in a given three-year period is about 1 in 250. Obviously the clerkships skew T14.

In the 2000s, 24 students from non-T25 schools got SCOTUS clerkships. I'd bet decent money more than 24 non-T25 students died during the decade. Think about that: Including as part of your rankings a position that the average non-T25 law student is less likely to obtain THAN HE IS TO DIE IN LAW SCHOOL. Clearly there's hyperbole involved here, but that's just an illustrative thing to show what a pointless inclusion it is.

Aren't you a 0L? Let's avoid rehashing advice you've seen around the internet, OK?

I go to UVA, and going back to the original question, I would advise as follows:

-If your back-up to Miami big law is ANY big law, then yes, UVA is the right choice... if you are willing to take on the debt and consider that maybe you won't even get that if you end up below median
-If your back-up is to practice in Florida in any capacity, than definitely UF with the FULL RIDE

[envisciguy]

Not a bad plan if you can swing it. Even if not, ED'ing UVA might not be bad, though an extra 2 points would be really substantial.

How would you feel about UF at a full ride, vs UVA at sticker?

Just a heads up, I don't think UF actually gives full rides. You can get close to a full ride, but there will still be a few thousand dollars it doesn't cover.

Also, I agree with Wahoos. If you're completely set on biglaw, then UVA makes more sense, but if you'd be more happy with any type of law in FL, then go to UF.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Side note: If there are 40k graduates for 40 SCOTUS clerkships per term, then the average law student has a 1 in 1000 chance of obtaining one. Per standard actuarial tables, the chance that a man in his mid-twenties dies in a given three-year period is about 1 in 250. Obviously the clerkships skew T14.

In the 2000s, 24 students from non-T25 schools got SCOTUS clerkships. I'd bet decent money more than 24 non-T25 students died during the decade. Think about that: Including as part of your rankings a position that the average non-T25 law student is less likely to obtain THAN HE IS TO DIE IN LAW SCHOOL. Clearly there's hyperbole involved here, but that's just an illustrative thing to show what a pointless inclusion it is.

Aren't you a 0L? Let's avoid rehashing advice you've seen around the internet, OK?

I usually don't get involved with this "LOL UR A 0L THERE IZ NO WAY U COULD HAV A VALID POINT" shit, but I suppose I'll bite this time. Go ahead. Defend SCOTUS clerkships as an appropriate inclusion.

[homie1515]

Not a bad plan if you can swing it. Even if not, ED'ing UVA might not be bad, though an extra 2 points would be really substantial.

How would you feel about UF at a full ride, vs UVA at sticker?

Just a heads up, I don't think UF actually gives full rides. You can get close to a full ride, but there will still be a few thousand dollars it doesn't cover.

Also, I agree with Wahoos. If you're completely set on biglaw, then UVA makes more sense, but if you'd be more happy with any type of law in FL, then go to UF.

No, but my family will cover the expenses if I stay in FL.

Big law isnt necessary, I just don't want to be stuck at a shitlaw firm for the rest of my career making 60k...