UF vs UVA?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which for Miami/S.FL Big law

UF - Full Ride
8
40%
UVA - Sticker
12
60%
 
Total votes: 20

homie1515
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UF vs UVA?

Postby homie1515 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:19 pm

UF vs UVA...

UF is full tuition and cost of living being covered

UVA is sticker with gov't loans

Goals are listed below
Miami Big Law --> S. Fl Big Law --> DC Big Law --> Big Law anywhere else --> Miami Legal Job

Which should I go for?

Thanks

Stats - 3.3x/170/170/retake in october

Can you please list why you made the choice you made... Thanks again.
Last edited by homie1515 on Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:47 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: T14/UF/ Vandy to South Florida

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:30 pm

If your score doesn't improve, ED to UVA might be the safest play. It's light years ahead of any Florida school.

If your score improves, Columbia and NYU come into play and there's lower T14 money at play. One of those options is fine as long as you don't go to UF.

homie1515
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Re: T14/UF/ Vandy to South Florida

Postby homie1515 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:34 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:If your score doesn't improve, ED to UVA might be the safest play. It's light years ahead of any Florida school.

If your score improves, Columbia and NYU come into play and there's lower T14 money at play. One of those options is fine as long as you don't go to UF.


But i really don't want to work in NY, I always wanted to do Miami Biglaw --> S. Fl big Law --> DC Big Law --> any legal job in FL...

What numbers would I need to make columbia worthwhile?

Also, would i need to ED to get in anywhere? I feel i could right a good why Penn (My deceased father went to wharton there and id like to follow in his footsteps) and why UVA essay (My uncle lived there for the past 10 years)

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: T14/UF/ Vandy to South Florida

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:47 pm

Notwithstanding that CLS and NYU are strongest in NYC, they are also the strongest option you'll have of actually getting a Biglaw job. Going to a lower T14 with some money would be fine too, just as long as you go to a school that will actually give you a good chance of Biglaw. But if you have ties in FL, any T14 will give you a way, way better chance of FL Biglaw than UF.

Columbia and NYU would become worthwhile endeavors if you are above their LSAT medians, currently 172 for CLS and 171 for NYU (though NYU's may very well drop when this cycle is over). So CLS becomes more than a wild goose chase at 173+. Even if NYU's median doesn't drop, a 171 might be worth an app to NYU.

Nobody "needs" to ED anywhere, but it helps your chances. UVA in particular is known for willing to take applicants a little below their targets if they ED. N.b. that assumes you're okay with paying sticker at UVA. If your score doesn't improve, I'd say that's your best bet.

homie1515
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Re: T14/UF/ Vandy to South Florida

Postby homie1515 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:09 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Notwithstanding that CLS and NYU are strongest in NYC, they are also the strongest option you'll have of actually getting a Biglaw job. Going to a lower T14 with some money would be fine too, just as long as you go to a school that will actually give you a good chance of Biglaw. But if you have ties in FL, any T14 will give you a way, way better chance of FL Biglaw than UF.

Columbia and NYU would become worthwhile endeavors if you are above their LSAT medians, currently 172 for CLS and 171 for NYU (though NYU's may very well drop when this cycle is over). So CLS becomes more than a wild goose chase at 173+. Even if NYU's median doesn't drop, a 171 might be worth an app to NYU.

Nobody "needs" to ED anywhere, but it helps your chances. UVA in particular is known for willing to take applicants a little below their targets if they ED. N.b. that assumes you're okay with paying sticker at UVA. If your score doesn't improve, I'd say that's your best bet.



-Thanks, so let me understand this better. I do not need to ED to UVA to get in with my current numbers? but with my current numbers you suggest I ED to UVA... any reason in particular you chose UVA, as opposed to say, Penn? ATL has them listed as better choice for law schools based on employment prospects. (it actually has both UVA and Penn higher than Columbia as well, fwiw)-

- And if i get above a 172 i should send apps to columbia and nyu in addition to uva penn and the rest of the t14 that i would attend.-

- Avoid UF (Vandy as well?) -

thanks...

anyone else with insight into this situation would be greatly appreciated.

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untar614
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Re: T14/UF/ Vandy to South Florida

Postby untar614 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:30 pm

homie1515 wrote:

-Thanks, so let me understand this better. I do not need to ED to UVA to get in with my current numbers? but with my current numbers you suggest I ED to UVA... any reason in particular you chose UVA, as opposed to say, Penn? ATL has them listed as better choice for law schools based on employment prospects. (it actually has both UVA and Penn higher than Columbia as well, fwiw)-

Penn does indeed have the best biglaw placement numbers (assuming firm prestige/vault rank doesn't matter to you). But ATL's rankings are trash (and they had such a great opportunity to make them good too... I was very disappointed). He suggested UVA because they are most well know to give a boost to ED applicants. I think Chicago does too, though I think thats a no-go with your GPA. Most other T14s don't offer a big admissions boost to ED applicants to our knowledge

- And if i get above a 172 i should send apps to columbia and nyu in addition to uva penn and the rest of the t14 that i would attend.-

yes

- Avoid UF (Vandy as well?) -

get a fee waiver and apply, might as well. But with a good LSAT score you will likely have better options

thanks...

anyone else with insight into this situation would be greatly appreciated.

homie1515
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Re: T14/UF/ Vandy to South Florida

Postby homie1515 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:36 pm

untar614 wrote:
homie1515 wrote:

-Thanks, so let me understand this better. I do not need to ED to UVA to get in with my current numbers? but with my current numbers you suggest I ED to UVA... any reason in particular you chose UVA, as opposed to say, Penn? ATL has them listed as better choice for law schools based on employment prospects. (it actually has both UVA and Penn higher than Columbia as well, fwiw)-

Penn does indeed have the best biglaw placement numbers (assuming firm prestige/vault rank doesn't matter to you). But ATL's rankings are trash (and they had such a great opportunity to make them good too... I was very disappointed). He suggested UVA because they are most well know to give a boost to ED applicants. I think Chicago does too, though I think thats a no-go with your GPA. Most other T14s don't offer a big admissions boost to ED applicants to our knowledge

- And if i get above a 172 i should send apps to columbia and nyu in addition to uva penn and the rest of the t14 that i would attend.-

yes

- Avoid UF (Vandy as well?) -

get a fee waiver and apply, might as well. But with a good LSAT score you will likely have better options

thanks...

anyone else with insight into this situation would be greatly appreciated.


I wouldn't want to go to Chicago, so that works out.

UF would be free for me my family would cover the costs

Vault rating does not matter to me perse, I would love to work for BSF-Miami, but that is a pipe dream.

So it sounds like I should ED to UVA if my scores dont change, but if they get better at all , i.e. 171, then should send RD apps to all the t6-t14 that i would attend (especially if i get a 172 --> RD Columbia)

Thanks.

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Re: T14/UF/ Vandy to South Florida

Postby jbagelboy » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:39 pm

Fair warning, us columbia kids won't take kindly to mention of the ATL rankings :)

To be more specific, they fail to include several extremely prestigious and relevant firms (i believe David Polk is among them) that recruit heavily from NYU/CLS, among other flaws. Long story short, go to LST (law school transparency) for the most accurate information available.

I dont see why you should aim for the new york schools specifically, but NYU is worth applying to if you hit over 171. Vanderbilt w/ $$$, Duke and UVA should be your primary targets for FL biglaw. UF places too few grads into legal jobs for comfort

homie1515
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Re: T14/UF/ Vandy to South Florida

Postby homie1515 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:46 pm

jbagelboy wrote:Fair warning, us columbia kids won't take kindly to mention of the ATL rankings :)

To be more specific, they fail to include several extremely prestigious and relevant firms (i believe David Polk is among them) that recruit heavily from NYU/CLS, among other flaws. Long story short, go to LST (law school transparency) for the most accurate information available.

I dont see why you should aim for the new york schools specifically, but NYU is worth applying to if you hit over 171. Vanderbilt w/ $$$, Duke and UVA should be your primary targets for FL biglaw. UF places too few grads into legal jobs for comfort



So you don't recommend I ED to any of them- assuming my numbers dont change?

And Duke doesnt really have a presence in any of the firms I'm looking at. Should that dissuade me?

And good to know about the Columbia kids lol thanks for the input :oops:

ETA: and for that matter, neither does Vanderbilt. (Have a presence in the firms im looking at)

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Lavitz
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Re: T14/UF/ Vandy to South Florida

Postby Lavitz » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:54 pm

It's possible to get UVA RD as a splitter, but your chances are much better with ED.

Without ED:

Image

With ED:

Image


I don't know much about the Florida market, but I hear UVA is good. I'm not sure whether Penn or NYU would be significantly better for breaking into it.

homie1515
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Re: T14/UF/ Vandy to South Florida

Postby homie1515 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:02 pm

Lavitz wrote:It's possible to get UVA RD as a splitter, but your chances are much better with ED.

Without ED:



With ED:




I don't know much about the Florida market, but I hear UVA is good. I'm not sure whether Penn or NYU would be significantly better for breaking into it.


Thanks for that, does the scholarship next to Penn for ED mean that they were offered those scholarships even though they ED'd? I thought that wasnt the norm.

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untar614
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Re: T14/UF/ Vandy to South Florida

Postby untar614 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:05 pm

That, and their inclusion of educational cost into their ranking system makes absolutely no f@#%ing sense. It's just coincidence you're talking to all CLSbros here (prior to Lavitz's entry).

First off, get back to us when your score comes back next week. But most likely, I'd say blanket Penn to GULC, except UVA, along with Vandy and UF really early. If it gets close to the UVA ED deadline and you're not thrilled with what you've gotten so far, ED UVA. (I'm assuming you can't apply RD to UVA then switch to ED. If you can, then disregard what I said).

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Re: T14/UF/ Vandy to South Florida

Postby dabbadon8 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:07 pm

Don't listen to anything in this thread. Here is how miami hiring works:

There are 50 or so spots total.
UM has a huge alumni network and will take up a good chunk of the spot. These will be law review members (top of the class).
FSU/UF does worse than UM. Will need to be on law review.
The rest of the t-14 fights it out for the rest of the spots. You will need ties to have a decent shot. No school (outside of maybe hys) will give you a big advantage per se. If a particular firm has a strong alumni base from that school it may help. Getting these spots is a crap shoot since there are so few and hiring at each is will depend on fit and ties as much or more than academic credientials.

Moral of the story: don't go to law school if you are miami big law or bust. Just go to the best school generally (cost benefit wise) then apply to miami and see what happens.

homie1515
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Re: T14/UF/ Vandy to South Florida

Postby homie1515 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:08 pm

untar614 wrote:That, and their inclusion of educational cost into their ranking system makes absolutely no f@#%ing sense. It's just coincidence you're talking to all CLSbros here (prior to Lavitz's entry).

First off, get back to us when your score comes back next week. But most likely, I'd say blanket Penn to GULC, except UVA, along with Vandy and UF really early. If it gets close to the UVA ED deadline and you're not thrilled with what you've gotten so far, ED UVA. (I'm assuming you can't apply RD to UVA then switch to ED. If you can, then disregard what I said).


I believe i was told that it was possible to RD then to switch to ED, but that confused me, what if im waitlisted as an RD? would i then switch to ED? or do they reserve waitlists for ED apps?

homie1515
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Re: T14/UF/ Vandy to South Florida

Postby homie1515 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:10 pm

dabbadon8 wrote:Don't listen to anything in this thread. Here is how miami hiring works:

There are 50 or so spots total.
UM has a huge alumni network and will take up a good chunk of the spot. These will be law review members (top of the class).
FSU/UF does worse than UM. Will need to be on law review.
The rest of the t-14 fights it out for the rest of the spots. You will need ties to have a decent shot. No school (outside of maybe hys) will give you a big advantage per se. If a particular firm has a strong alumni base from that school it may help. Getting these spots is a crap shoot since there are so few and hiring at each is will depend on fit and ties as much or more than academic credientials.

Moral of the story: don't go to law school if you are miami big law or bust. Just go to the best school generally (cost benefit wise) then apply to miami and see what happens.


Got it, thanks for the input. That is why I listed that I would prefer Miami biglaw but would go other places (like DC). I guess I would go wherever the job is open, but I would prefer to lateral back to Miami. How do you know so much about Miami Biglaw? can i pm you with questions?

dabbadon8
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Re: T14/UF/ Vandy to South Florida

Postby dabbadon8 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:13 pm

homie1515 wrote:
dabbadon8 wrote:Don't listen to anything in this thread. Here is how miami hiring works:

There are 50 or so spots total.
UM has a huge alumni network and will take up a good chunk of the spot. These will be law review members (top of the class).
FSU/UF does worse than UM. Will need to be on law review.
The rest of the t-14 fights it out for the rest of the spots. You will need ties to have a decent shot. No school (outside of maybe hys) will give you a big advantage per se. If a particular firm has a strong alumni base from that school it may help. Getting these spots is a crap shoot since there are so few and hiring at each is will depend on fit and ties as much or more than academic credientials.

Moral of the story: don't go to law school if you are miami big law or bust. Just go to the best school generally (cost benefit wise) then apply to miami and see what happens.


Got it, thanks for the input. That is why I listed that I would prefer Miami biglaw but would go other places (like DC). I guess I would go wherever the job is open, but I would prefer to lateral back to Miami. How do you know so much about Miami Biglaw? can i pm you with questions?


Feel free to pm me with specific questions.

homie1515
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Re: T14/UF/ Vandy to South Florida

Postby homie1515 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:28 pm

dabbadon8 wrote:
homie1515 wrote:
dabbadon8 wrote:Don't listen to anything in this thread. Here is how miami hiring works:

There are 50 or so spots total.
UM has a huge alumni network and will take up a good chunk of the spot. These will be law review members (top of the class).
FSU/UF does worse than UM. Will need to be on law review.
The rest of the t-14 fights it out for the rest of the spots. You will need ties to have a decent shot. No school (outside of maybe hys) will give you a big advantage per se. If a particular firm has a strong alumni base from that school it may help. Getting these spots is a crap shoot since there are so few and hiring at each is will depend on fit and ties as much or more than academic credientials.

Moral of the story: don't go to law school if you are miami big law or bust. Just go to the best school generally (cost benefit wise) then apply to miami and see what happens.


Got it, thanks for the input. That is why I listed that I would prefer Miami biglaw but would go other places (like DC). I guess I would go wherever the job is open, but I would prefer to lateral back to Miami. How do you know so much about Miami Biglaw? can i pm you with questions?


Feel free to pm me with specific questions.


Thanks, PM sent.

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untar614
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Re: T14/UF/ Vandy to South Florida

Postby untar614 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:32 pm

dabbadon8 wrote:Don't listen to anything in this thread. Here is how miami hiring works:

There are 50 or so spots total.
UM has a huge alumni network and will take up a good chunk of the spot. These will be law review members (top of the class).
FSU/UF does worse than UM. Will need to be on law review.
The rest of the t-14 fights it out for the rest of the spots. You will need ties to have a decent shot. No school (outside of maybe hys) will give you a big advantage per se. If a particular firm has a strong alumni base from that school it may help. Getting these spots is a crap shoot since there are so few and hiring at each is will depend on fit and ties as much or more than academic credientials.

Moral of the story: don't go to law school if you are miami big law or bust. Just go to the best school generally (cost benefit wise) then apply to miami and see what happens.


I feel like you kinda agreed with us though. He didn't mention UM, so we didn't talk about it, but we acknowledged that FL schools don't have great employment stats, so only a good option if very cheap and nothing better on the table. As you said, only the tops of the classes are getting the real biglaw spots. I don't think it'd be correct to say "the rest of the T14 fights it out for these spots" as few are even targeting Miami, but I think those who do target Miami with ties from a T14 are overall better off than going to UM or UF (and FSU is for local and state gov stuff). And the T14s would give better shots at biglaw elsewhere, from which OP could try to lateral to Miami sometime later on.

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Re: T14/UF/ Vandy to South Florida

Postby Lavitz » Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:32 pm

homie1515 wrote:Thanks for that, does the scholarship next to Penn for ED mean that they were offered those scholarships even though they ED'd? I thought that wasnt the norm.

It's not the norm. On his LSN profile, the person who got that guessed it must have been need-based aid.

untar614 wrote:That, and their inclusion of educational cost into their ranking system makes absolutely no f@#%ing sense. It's just coincidence you're talking to all CLSbros here (prior to Lavitz's entry).

As much as I'd like to tease you guys about your ATL ranking, I have to agree it makes no sense. Off-topic here, but at 5:50 in this video, Elie tries to claim that the Columbia / NYU drop is due to NYC being hit harder than other markets. Doesn't explain why Cornell would go up two spots compared with USNWR then. No mention of educational cost as a factor.

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Re: T14/UF/ Vandy to South Florida

Postby homie1515 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:40 pm

Got it Lavitz...

Can anyone shed some light on the UVA RD to ED process? I'd like to know my options. If I blanket the t6/7-15 all RD but save the possibility of UVA ED for later on in the cycle, just in case No one else bites...

But then comes the issue of would I rather have a near guaranteed shot at UVA or a 30% shot at UVA, Penn, and Duke (probably less than 30% at duke), but i guess RD then switching to ED solves that problem doesnt it?


So my next question would be about QOL at UVA/Duke/Penn... Can anyone shed some light on that aspect of these schools?

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Re: T14/UF/ Vandy to South Florida

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:52 pm

The ATL ratings are 15% comprised of federal judges and SCOTUS clerks, which are things that you will never be. You can pretty much disregard that. Also, the employment score is pretty much pointless when you already have a Biglaw+FedClerk metric. If you whiff on those, you may as well be unemployed, because you're defaulting on your loans either way. Even Biglaw+FedClerk is a tenuous metric, because it doesn't account for self-selection outside of Biglaw (so NYU is lolfucked), and sometimes when you combine that with small variations you get nonsensical outcomes. For example, Penn has a higher Biglaw+FedClerk than Yale by a wide margin, but Yale places a lot better in anything you're trying to do. Also, not all NLJ250 jobs are created equal. Job at Wachtell > Job at non-market-paying firm in Miami. /butthurt CLS-bro rant

To the point: In Miami and DC, you selected the only top-ten city with a godawful legal market and the most competitive legal market in the country, respectively. Miami jobs mostly suck and no non-HYS student gets DC Biglaw outside the top third. I presume you'd be willing to consider other markets--if you aren't, don't go to law school. Finishing around median at a T14 means you go to a secondary market with ties or you go to NYC. As I understand it, there aren't many jobs paying even close to market in Miami. It's more likely that you wind up in NYC (because, well, that's where the plurality of the jobs are), and you should make peace with that.

Also, UVA ED with 3.3x and 170 is not a "near-guaranteed" chance. Better than RD for sure, but not a lock. The advantage of UVA ED is that you're guaranteed a response in fifteen days, so you know you will have time to form alternative application strategies if you aren't admitted. That's why if you're okay with paying sticker there, and on the bubble of their targets, it's advantageous to ED there because if it doesn't work on, you can then apply ED to Penn, or Michigan, or Duke. If you ED to the others, you might not hear back in time to fire off a second ED in case you don't get in.

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Re: T14/UF/ Vandy to South Florida

Postby homie1515 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:57 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:The ATL ratings are 15% comprised of federal judges and SCOTUS clerks, which are things that you will never be. You can pretty much disregard that. Also, the employment score is pretty much pointless when you already have a Biglaw+FedClerk metric. If you whiff on those, you may as well be unemployed, because you're defaulting on your loans either way. Even Biglaw+FedClerk is a tenuous metric, because it doesn't account for self-selection outside of Biglaw (so NYU is lolfucked), and sometimes when you combine that with small variations you get nonsensical outcomes. For example, Penn has a higher Biglaw+FedClerk than Yale by a wide margin, but Yale places a lot better in anything you're trying to do. Also, not all NLJ250 jobs are created equal. Job at Wachtell > Job at non-market-paying firm in Miami. /butthurt CLS-bro rant

To the point: In Miami and DC, you selected the only top-ten city with a godawful legal market and the most competitive legal market in the country, respectively. Miami jobs mostly suck and no non-HYS student gets DC Biglaw outside the top third. I presume you'd be willing to consider other markets--if you aren't, don't go to law school. Finishing around median at a T14 means you go to a secondary market with ties or you go to NYC. As I understand it, there aren't many jobs paying even close to market in Miami. It's more likely that you wind up in NYC (because, well, that's where the plurality of the jobs are), and you should make peace with that.

Also, UVA ED with 3.3x and 170 is not a "near-guaranteed" chance. Better than RD for sure, but not a lock. The advantage of UVA ED is that you're guaranteed a response in fifteen days, so you know you will have time to form alternative application strategies if you aren't admitted. That's why if you're okay with paying sticker there, and on the bubble of their targets, it's advantageous to ED there because if it doesn't work on, you can then apply ED to Penn, or Michigan, or Duke. If you ED to the others, you might not hear back in time to fire off a second ED in case you don't get in.


So you don't recommend be blanket the t7-t15 including RD UVA, then possibly changing that to ED if nothing else pans out?

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Re: T14/UF/ Vandy to South Florida

Postby untar614 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:58 pm

This is all secondhand, as I've only been to Philly of the three, but from what I've heard from people I know who've been there:

Charlottesville is pretty much a college town. It should be fairly cheap to live in, and entertainment will likely be centered around the university. The university is said to have a strong southern Greek presence, though that was the case at my school too, and there was plenty to do unrelated to any of that.

Durham is more of a small city, part of the Triangle, so there are other colleges not too far away, as well as a decent non-University population. Good weather, not too expensive.

Philly will probably have a lot more going on, but you also have to pay attention to where you are as there are some pretty bad parts of the city. It'll probably cost you more to live than the others, but it's nowhere near the level of other Northeastern big cities - it's much more reasonable.

The QoL is really subjective depending on what you like.

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Re: T14/UF/ Vandy to South Florida

Postby homie1515 » Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:00 am

untar614 wrote:This is all secondhand, as I've only been to Philly of the three, but from what I've heard from people I know who've been there:

Charlottesville is pretty much a college town. It should be fairly cheap to live in, and entertainment will likely be centered around the university. The university is said to have a strong southern Greek presence, though that was the case at my school too, and there was plenty to do unrelated to any of that.

Durham is more of a small city, part of the Triangle, so there are other colleges not too far away, as well as a decent non-University population. Good weather, not too expensive.

Philly will probably have a lot more going on, but you also have to pay attention to where you are as there are some pretty bad parts of the city. It'll probably cost you more to live than the others, but it's nowhere near the level of other Northeastern big cities - it's much more reasonable.

The QoL is really subjective depending on what you like.


Thanks.

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untar614
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Re: T14/UF/ Vandy to South Florida

Postby untar614 » Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:01 am

homie1515 wrote:So you don't recommend be blanket the t7-t15 including RD UVA, then possibly changing that to ED if nothing else pans out?


This could result in some tricky game theory-esque situation in which we have to weigh preferences against likelihoods to see what gives us the best result on average. I say come back with a score (seriously, it's less than a week away) and then we can better try to formulate a strategy.




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