Loyola New Orleans vs. Cal Western Forum

[Presidentjlh]

Zoomie... are you trolling or just plain dumb?

Work hard and be at the top of your class? Oh is that all? I feel like the 0Ls are ramping up the naivete lately.

Romo, please. I'm sure only a few people in law school, if even that many, work hard to get good grades, so don't worry about it, as long as you're the special snowflake that actually works hard, you'll leave everyone in the dust since no one else is trying either.

[BigZuck]

Zoomie... are you trolling or just plain dumb?

Work hard and be at the top of your class? Oh is that all? I feel like the 0Ls are ramping up the naivete lately.

Come now broseph

There were 0Ls fighting the good fight here long before you showed up. Give the chamber some credit, we were echoing along quite nicely.

[shifty_eyed]

Zoomie... are you trolling or just plain dumb?

Work hard and be at the top of your class? Oh is that all? I feel like the 0Ls are ramping up the naivete lately.

Come now broseph

There were 0Ls fighting the good fight here long before you showed up. Give the chamber some credit, we were echoing along quite nicely.

Plus, when I first joined TLS in 2009 there were tons of other "TTTTA or TTTTB?" threads, where the OP was choosing between two shit schools at sticker in FL and CA when s/he was from the Midwest.

There has been a marked decrease in these kinds of posts even since last cycle, when the law school scam was fully exposed via LST et al.

[romothesavior]

There has been a marked decrease even since last cycle, when the law school scam was fully exposed via LST et al.

Oh absolutely. The naivete of TLS 0L posters has decreased substantially, though its made TLS less interesting. I was just commenting that it seems like over the past few weeks there's been a small spat of silly statements in the midst of the otherwise downward trend.

Just work hard and be at the top of your class? That's borderline insulting to a 3L like me. Go read the Vale of Tears thread and try to say that again.

[timbs4339]

The naivete of TLS 0L posters has decreased substantially, though its made TLS less interesting.

I hope that's the case, and posters are not lying about their scholly money or not bothering to post because they know what the answer is going to be. The capacity for self-delusion is extremely strong.

[jbagelboy]

The naivete of TLS 0L posters has decreased substantially, though its made TLS less interesting.

I hope that's the case, and posters are not lying about their scholly money or not bothering to post because they know what the answer is going to be. The capacity for self-delusion is extremely strong.

I would actually not be surprised if this happened more often than we know. People feel they have to cover their true COA to get legitimate responses about their options. Total honesty by most posters would result in a simple "don't go".

I've also noticed that between February and July, the pessimism about debt increases, and advice that one might give when results are coming out has become more stringent by WL season. When I put up my Choosing thread months ago, no one said retake to my $130-135K in fed loans (which was an honest if not conservative estimation), whereas now I see people suggesting retake/reapply for similar results.

[timbs4339]

The naivete of TLS 0L posters has decreased substantially, though its made TLS less interesting.

I hope that's the case, and posters are not lying about their scholly money or not bothering to post because they know what the answer is going to be. The capacity for self-delusion is extremely strong.

I would actually not be surprised if this happened more often than we know. People feel they have to cover their true COA to get legitimate responses about their options. Total honesty by most posters would result in a simple "don't go".

I've also noticed that between February and July, the pessimism about debt increases, and advice that one might give when results are coming out has become more stringent by WL season. When I put up my Choosing thread months ago, no one said retake to my $130-135K in fed loans (which was an honest if not conservative estimation), whereas now I see people suggesting retake/reapply for similar results.

Well depends on your schools.

[lolahomer]

Hi OP here,

I'm really waiting to see if I am admitted to USD. I asked for advice between these two schools because they were the only schools so far to give me $$. I got into Santa Clara at full sticker, but I don't want to take out that many loans. I am open to retaking & applying next cycle but I am a poor test taker so I don't know how much I could actually improve my score. I tried night last classes and blueprint online as well.

Are any of you practicing attorneys?

[timbs4339]

Hi OP here,

I'm really waiting to see if I am admitted to USD. I asked for advice between these two schools because they were the only schools so far to give me $$. I got into Santa Clara at full sticker, but I don't want to take out that many loans. I am open to retaking & applying next cycle but I am a poor test taker so I don't know how much I could actually improve my score. I tried night last classes and blueprint online as well.

Are any of you practicing attorneys?

I am a practicing attorney.

If you are a poor test taker, law school is going to be extraordinarily difficult for you because your entire grade will be how you perform on a single test in each class (and then there's the big standardized test at the end called the bar). If you just mean you are a poor standardized test taker, that's a useful excuse we often hear from people who clearly don't want to put in the work to put themselves in a decent position to succeed. Many bad test takers have improved their score on the LSAT with sustained prep using the free advice given on this forum.

You want to take the easy way out, but you don't understand that it's actually the more difficult path.

[californiauser]

I am going to LOYNO. It's not a bad choice as others have said. They have a great practical skills program. You have to take ALOT of what the people say on here with a grain of salt. They are by no means experts regardless of how many blogs and articles they have read. LOYNO is a very geographically limited school. Louisiana does practice civil law but it has a common law program. A law degree from Loyola is respected in New Orleans....but that's about it. I think your chances of being a lawyer depend on you. The job market is abysmal but not impossible. Students graduate every year and get jobs as a lawyer. There are some that don't get jobs but where were they on their ranking. What kind of jobs have they turned down. Eh, it really is a chance and as long as you have your expectations managed, I would not worry about wht the pretentious T14 are saying about either school. Loyola has produced successful lawyers, as has Cal Western.

With that being said, if you have no ties to Louisiana and don't plan to stay here, I would go with Cal Western. You live there, have ties and will probably benefit more by attending school in an area you want to stay in, especially with a T3 school.

This has nothing to do with t14 pretentiousness. It'd be different if OP wanted LSU and was FROM Louisiana or from Wyoming and wanted Wyoming law. What OP is doing is completely reckless and unjustifiable.

[Big Dog]

if you are not willing to study hard and retake, you should not go to law school. These are just two awful options in this new, legal economy.

Forget mid-law, the chances of no law in three years are the best bet.

[rftdd888]

NOLA resident here

OP, I've never even heard of Cal Western and I've been reading about law school on the internet for years lol. I can tell you some stuff about Loyola. One poster is right that Loyola has a good reputation in New Orleans. In fact, a distant friend recently graduated from Loyola and is doing well at a firm in the city because this person had connections/family. I would support the notion that Loyola has a solid rep in NOLA and that it's not impossible to find work from there; however, as a general rule you should never go to a school like Loyola. A very low-ranked, expensive school that offers poor prospects. Which it has if you don't have ties, because that is how it works in New Orleans. Loyola has a deep old-boy network, you gotta work into that somehow if you go. The advice on the importance of networking from Loyola was offered by a 1970s Loyola grad who today is a practicing ADA/PD active in networking locally etc.

The only school worth going to in Louisiana is LSU. It's a good value, has solid job prospects, a rigorous education, very cheap instate tuition. Tulane is a terrible option given its poor job performance and skyhigh tuition, but there are plenty of other reasons why Tulane sucks if we had more time.

I wouldn't go to any of them if you're not already a resident of LA. then again I would go there over Cal Western, and NO is both a great place to live and relatively low COL

HTH

edit; forgot to disclaim, i am not a law student and have not yet completed my own admissions cycle, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

[Zoomie]

There has been a marked decrease even since last cycle, when the law school scam was fully exposed via LST et al.

Oh absolutely. The naivete of TLS 0L posters has decreased substantially, though its made TLS less interesting. I was just commenting that it seems like over the past few weeks there's been a small spat of silly statements in the midst of the otherwise downward trend.

Just work hard and be at the top of your class? That's borderline insulting to a 3L like me. Go read the Vale of Tears thread and try to say that again.

Really, just pick one statement I made and harp on it. Look at the bigger picture of what I was saying. I am a naive 0L. Weren't you once? Why don't you guys stop being assholes for two seconds and give some advice/recommendations/suggestions with out the insults and jabs? TLSers come off as dicks.

[romothesavior]

You started this thread off by calling people "pretentious T14ers" because we think Loyola NOLA is a bad investment, and you have the audacity to complain about people throwing jabs? Lolok...

Some of your posts ITT are just ridiculous and even a moment's thought should tell you that.

Just work hard and be at the top of your class? Oh well okay then. Why didn't all those unemployed 3Ls in the Vale of Tears thread just try that? Or maybe my unemployed best friends? I'll tell them where they went wrong.

There are successful graduates of Loyola? There are successful graduates from every school in the nation. That tells us nothing. We have meaningful data for the first time ever, so "I know a guy who does well from school X" just doesn't cut it.

Neither isnt an option? Its always an option. We aren't going to just tell someone what they want to hear because they draw up some silly false dichotomy. Cyanide or bleach? Neither is TCR.

If you want people to engage you in respectful and intelligent dialogue, you should do the same. Starting off by insulting people on this board and then spouting mindless anecdote-laden drivel won't do.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

There has been a marked decrease even since last cycle, when the law school scam was fully exposed via LST et al.

Oh absolutely. The naivete of TLS 0L posters has decreased substantially, though its made TLS less interesting. I was just commenting that it seems like over the past few weeks there's been a small spat of silly statements in the midst of the otherwise downward trend.

Just work hard and be at the top of your class? That's borderline insulting to a 3L like me. Go read the Vale of Tears thread and try to say that again.

Really, just pick one statement I made and harp on it. Look at the bigger picture of what I was saying. I am a naive 0L. Weren't you once? Why don't you guys stop being assholes for two seconds and give some advice/recommendations/suggestions with out the insults and jabs? TLSers come off as dicks.

Your first post on this thread featured some extraordinarily poor reasoning and mentioned the "pretentious T14", implying that posters urging OP to do better for himself acted on elitism rather than fact. You subsequently repeated fallacies and misleading information that suggested Loyola New Orleans was a decent investment in any way, shape or form. This isn't you making "one statement", you made a half-dozen.

"Looking at the bigger picture" was exactly where you were wrong. Your fact-based claims were essentially correct, but omitted key information that would clearly demonstrate why Loyola is a terrible investment. Also, notice everyone else WAS trying to give advice before you came in here and started giving bad advice. Others have already calmly refuted your arguments as they stand.

Edit: Scooped by Romo. But I still think we can have fun with it. "Hey guys, apparently you should finish at the top of your class! Thank goodness this guy's here, who else could have possibly thought of that?"

[Zoomie]

JuEdit: Scooped by Romo. But I still think we can have fun with it. "Hey guys, apparently you should finish at the top of your class! Thank goodness this guy's here, who else could have possibly thought of that?"

Okay, okay. It was a really naive statement. Point proven. If the OP wants to go to Law school and pay that much, then let them. Irresponsible...probably. Guarenteed unemployment....no. They simply asked which (dichotomous) option was better. Anyone considering law school should know the potential implications of going to law school. I only responded on the poll because of Loyola and my "anecdotal" knowledge of job prospects.

[Presidentjlh]

JuEdit: Scooped by Romo. But I still think we can have fun with it. "Hey guys, apparently you should finish at the top of your class! Thank goodness this guy's here, who else could have possibly thought of that?"

Okay, okay. It was a really naive statement. Point proven. If the OP wants to go to Law school and pay that much, then let them. Irresponsible...probably. Guarenteed unemployment....no. They simply asked which (dichotomous) option was better. Anyone considering law school should know the potential implications of going to law school. I only responded on the poll because of Loyola and my "anecdotal" knowledge of job prospects.

See, that's a better response.

But I think it is our duty, simply as just fellow human beings, to warn someone of the potential disasterous decision they are about to make. If, after that, they still want to go that route, then, we have done all we can, and it's all on them.

[Big Dog]

Neither is always an option.

Indeed, IMO a barista probably has better career options than a JD from Cal Western or UNO with zero ties to that 'hood.

[timbs4339]

JuEdit: Scooped by Romo. But I still think we can have fun with it. "Hey guys, apparently you should finish at the top of your class! Thank goodness this guy's here, who else could have possibly thought of that?"

Okay, okay. It was a really naive statement. Point proven. If the OP wants to go to Law school and pay that much, then let them. Irresponsible...probably. Guarenteed unemployment....no. They simply asked which (dichotomous) option was better. Anyone considering law school should know the potential implications of going to law school. I only responded on the poll because of Loyola and my "anecdotal" knowledge of job prospects.

Do you think people "know the potential implications of going to law school" in a vacuum? Somebody actually has to tell them what those implications are. Or do you think people who have been in the trenches over the past 5 years should abdicate that role to boomer lawyers who went to school when tuition was $1K a year, clueless law school admissions counselors, or network television?

[timmyd]

I can give some insight on this because I went to Loyola New Orleans my 1l year but have now decided to transfer to the University of Texas School of Law (I chose UT over Gtown because I want to stay down south). It is going to be really hard to get a job out of Loyola anywhere except New Orleans. Which is fine if you want to live in New Orleans forever. It is a great city, but that lack of portability freaked me out. You have to understand that for probably 75% of the student population, Loyola will not help you get a job. If you are top 20% (really more like top 10%) I would say you have a decent shot at securing employment (40-60K a year). I was top 5.5% and couldn't really get anything my 1l summer. Loyola is definitely respected in New Orleans and there are ALOT of Loyola alum working good firm jobs in New Orleans. Look at their information though, they are all law review/top 10% graduates etc. You have to err on the side of caution and realize you probably wont be in the top 10%. Anyways, I say that if you absolutely know you want to work in New Orleans, go Loyno. If not, retake or go to loyno on close to a full ride, get top 10% and transfer to a t20.

[J-e-L-L-o]

Gun to my head, Cal Western

Gun to my head, I'd take the bullet over attending either of these schools.

+1.

If you don't want to take the bullet, try to put both of them against each other and increase your current scholarship offers. I would only say Cal Western since your from San Diego and atleast you don't pay living expenses. Were you dinged at USD?

[InferenceOptional]

Not everyone will work very hard. The people who put in crazy hours like 12 hours six days per week disproportionately finished over median. If you know the law cold, and study correctly to spot issues then you will probably be ahead of most if you "just work hard". A non-negligible number will not work very hard at any school particularly schools in the lower tiers as these students are on average less likely to work very well to achieve goals.

The issue is that for these schools to produce a good outcome you will need to be one of the very best (think top 1% at a minimum). There are some people who will not work close to as hard as you, and always get better grades than you. At some schools, this is fine because you don't have to be the best to get a good job. At these schools, you must be the very best.

Most people who are aware of the data but choose not to retake would be able to find a way to stick it out another year, but it's easier to go now so they opt to go. I would imagine the same psychology would come into play day in and day out until crunch time which means the "outwork everyone" even if it would be enough to get top 1% (which it is not) will win every time.

Law school is a series of tests so being a bad test taker is really awful. What this means is that you are worse than other people at the same subject/area or fold under pressure. Either one must be fixed before law becomes a realistic option. If you somehow got a law firm interview, and they ask about your grades saying you're a bad test taker is probably the worst response. If you say, I was going to study but decided to smoke a blunt and watch baseball they may at least think you would not be so bad to be around.

I also take issue with the presumption from lower tier schools that individuals at t-14 are pretentious and stuck up. I heard this from many practicing attorneys who hung shingles, but have not found this to be accurate among alumni or students at all. I have found people slow to judge, and who form opinions with reason. I have found a sense of unsubstantiated superiority among lower tiered schools in disproportionate fashion, a lot of "chosen world savers" and overall unpleasant individuals.