Temple (no debt) v Cornell (sticker)

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Temple ($$$) v Cornell (sticker)

Temple
12
21%
Cornell
23
40%
Retake
22
39%
 
Total votes: 57

TUICE
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Temple (no debt) v Cornell (sticker)

Postby TUICE » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:05 pm

I have narrowed down my choices to Temple and Cornell

-Cornell COA = full sticker and according to their website it's 77k a year. I have some savings and family contributions that I can count on for 125k, which leaves about 105-110k to be debt financed.

-Temple full tutition scholarship, I would be on the hook for living, books, etc. The family contributions will cover these costs, so I will have no debt or major out of pocket expenses.

- I would ideally like to work in philadelphia, but would be ok with NYC. I have what I would assume to be strong, or possibly extremely strong, ties (former professors and relatives in the legal community) in Philly. But, not necessarily any type of guaranteed job.

-I think id like to work in big law, but this is purely speculation seeing as I have never done it or anything remotely similar. If I go to cornell I feel I need big law to manage the debt load. If i hate big law, i will still have to stick it out for a few years to get back to even (this is assuming that I can get big law out of cornell). At temple this risk is certainly mitigated because of the lack of overhanging debt, but I feel like opportunities may be less likely to present themselves.

-165/3.75. ive taken the LSAT twice (October 2012 and February 2013), scored 165 both times even tho I was PTing around 170-173. I assume the conventional TLS wisdom is to retake and reapply. My ideal school is penn so it would make sense to that end to get a 170 to be competitive for admission. I'm also concerned that if I don't do better I may not get back into Cornell. Does it make sense to go to Cornell if I want to come back to Philly?

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Clearly
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Re: Temple (no debt) v Cornell (sticker)

Postby Clearly » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:19 pm

I know its cliche around here, but your the perfect candidate for a retake, especially because you under-performed your last test. I'd personally rank your options as such, although I'm not super debt averse, and think paying more for employment rates is justifiable.
1 Retake
2 Retake
3 Retake
4 Retake
5 Cornell at sticker
6 Retake
7 Temple.

UnderrateOverachieve
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Re: Temple (no debt) v Cornell (sticker)

Postby UnderrateOverachieve » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:24 pm

Does anyone have any statistical analysis of PT versus actual scores?

Probably have nothing to lose by trying again, but I question the fact your scores repeated. Do you feel like you really tried to ramp up your game for the second go around? Do you have palpable test anxiety?

Both of those can be resolved.

TUICE
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Re: Temple (no debt) v Cornell (sticker)

Postby TUICE » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:33 pm

UnderrateOverachieve wrote:Does anyone have any statistical analysis of PT versus actual scores?

Probably have nothing to lose by trying again, but I question the fact your scores repeated. Do you feel like you really tried to ramp up your game for the second go around? Do you have palpable test anxiety?

Both of those can be resolved.


Anxiety may have played a factor in the February lsat because I had sent all of my apps in before the actual test, but otherwise I can't say that I was really suffering from severe anxiety. I suppose I could have studied more, or waited longer to retake, but I was confident that I would do better. Of course, that didn't actually happen.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Temple (no debt) v Cornell (sticker)

Postby jbagelboy » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:34 pm

UnderrateOverachieve wrote:Does anyone have any statistical analysis of PT versus actual scores?

Probably have nothing to lose by trying again, but I question the fact your scores repeated. Do you feel like you really tried to ramp up your game for the second go around? Do you have palpable test anxiety?

Both of those can be resolved.


Its been said here that you should expect to score 2-3 points below your PT range. So if you are PTing between 170 and 173, it would make sense for you to hit 168 as a low end on test day. 165 means you did not achieve your potential (even a conservative lower end), so you should theoretically retake to 168+. Penn's median is 170. Definitely far from a lock, but you'd have a fighting chance.

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hephaestus
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Re: Temple (no debt) v Cornell (sticker)

Postby hephaestus » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:38 pm

Cornell can fairly easily get you back to Philly, but maybe not as easily as Penn.

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Ded Precedent
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Re: Temple (no debt) v Cornell (sticker)

Postby Ded Precedent » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:40 pm

Just study your ass off and retake in October. At the worst you're just back to facing this scenario again (which isn't a terrible situation to be in).

totoro
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Re: Temple (no debt) v Cornell (sticker)

Postby totoro » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:49 pm

This makes me wonder, since you got 165 twice, what do you think was the reason for underperforming your PT scores? It definitely seems worth retaking in your situation, but I would really try to analyze what may have happened there (i.e. Are you very strict with yourself on your PT's, including for the time it takes to bubble in the answers, and taking it in one sitting? Are your PT scores in a very consistent range or do you still get a lot of outliers?). However, you do have a lot more money saved up and more ties than most people, so you're sitting at a better position than most with this choice.

TUICE
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Re: Temple (no debt) v Cornell (sticker)

Postby TUICE » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:56 pm

totoro wrote:This makes me wonder, since you got 165 twice, what do you think was the reason for underperforming your PT scores? It definitely seems worth retaking in your situation, but I would really try to analyze what may have happened there (i.e. Are you very strict with yourself on your PT's, including for the time it takes to bubble in the answers, and taking it in one sitting? Are your PT scores in a very consistent range or do you still get a lot of outliers?). However, you do have a lot more money saved up and more ties than most people, so you're sitting at a better position than most with this choice.


Well for the October test, my preparation consisted of only 4 sections all timed in what I would say fairly replicated actual testing circumstances. On the actual test, I bombed the last section because of what I assumed was fatigue. Don't know what happened in February because I began PTing 5 section tests. And since I can't see the actual results I don't really know. If I had to guess, I felt like the first section killed me, which I would attribute to nerves until I got settled in. Again that's just speculation, and I could be comepletely wrong about that.

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Clearly
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Re: Temple (no debt) v Cornell (sticker)

Postby Clearly » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:03 pm

To work on fatigue, practice by taking 6 section tests, and don't cheat and use the last section as the second experimental! It's time consuming but worth it.

Anecdotal story, I took three times, my second was ONE point higher than my first, and my third was 12 points higher than my first. Hit the books for Oct!

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Temple (no debt) v Cornell (sticker)

Postby rickgrimes69 » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:14 pm

Given that you want to work in Philly and have solid connections there, Temple for free isn't a bad deal. You won't get Biglaw, but it doesn't sound like you necessarily want Biglaw either. It's a better option than Cornell at sticker IMO.

Retake is the best option of course, especially since it seems like you under-performed and have the potential to do better.

TUICE
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Re: Temple (no debt) v Cornell (sticker)

Postby TUICE » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:29 pm

Clearlynotstefan wrote:To work on fatigue, practice by taking 6 section tests, and don't cheat and use the last section as the second experimental! It's time consuming but worth it.

Anecdotal story, I took three times, my second was ONE point higher than my first, and my third was 12 points higher than my first. Hit the books for Oct!


Assuming I do retake, I will likely have to reuse some tests, especially since I used all of the recent ones (50-68) to study the first 2 times. How do most people go about studying using the same materials for future tests? I assume the results of any retaken test must be looked at with extreme skepticism.

Hutz_and_Goodman
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Re: Temple (no debt) v Cornell (sticker)

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:28 pm

1. Retake
2. Temple
3. jump off a bridge
4. Cornell @ sticker

bananapeanutbutter
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Re: Temple (no debt) v Cornell (sticker)

Postby bananapeanutbutter » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:52 pm

Stefan's 6 section idea is pretty brilliant. I'd also recommend not picking an experimental, and calculating your score with each counting - say if you did 4 LR sections, and average them. This way you're used to them all potentially counting.

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laotze
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Re: Temple (no debt) v Cornell (sticker)

Postby laotze » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:37 am

TUICE wrote:I have narrowed down my choices to Temple and Cornell

-Cornell COA = full sticker and according to their website it's 77k a year. I have some savings and family contributions that I can count on for 125k, which leaves about 105-110k to be debt financed.

-Temple full tutition scholarship, I would be on the hook for living, books, etc. The family contributions will cover these costs, so I will have no debt or major out of pocket expenses.

- I would ideally like to work in philadelphia, but would be ok with NYC. I have what I would assume to be strong, or possibly extremely strong, ties (former professors and relatives in the legal community) in Philly. But, not necessarily any type of guaranteed job.

-I think id like to work in big law, but this is purely speculation seeing as I have never done it or anything remotely similar. If I go to cornell I feel I need big law to manage the debt load. If i hate big law, i will still have to stick it out for a few years to get back to even (this is assuming that I can get big law out of cornell). At temple this risk is certainly mitigated because of the lack of overhanging debt, but I feel like opportunities may be less likely to present themselves.

-165/3.75. ive taken the LSAT twice (October 2012 and February 2013), scored 165 both times even tho I was PTing around 170-173. I assume the conventional TLS wisdom is to retake and reapply. My ideal school is penn so it would make sense to that end to get a 170 to be competitive for admission. I'm also concerned that if I don't do better I may not get back into Cornell. Does it make sense to go to Cornell if I want to come back to Philly?


Cornell at sticker is way too big a gamble if you are dead set on Philly biglaw specifically; the city isn't exactly swarming with major firms compared to the next-door NYC and DC markets. If you're willing to be geographically flexible - and it sounds like you may be, at least where NYC is concerned - Cornell may be worth the debt risk, but if you really absolutively posolutely want to work in Philly I would think Temple is the safer choice. My impression from talking to local lawyers (most of whom, granted, work for boutiques or small firms) is that it's an insular market and one filled (at least in non-biglaw firms) with predominantly Temple/Villanova/Rutgers grads, not out-of-state T14ers.

That said, your chances of landing Philly biglaw from Temple are likely slim without some seriously stellar grades and credentials.

Anyway, TLS wisdom is obviously "retake, retake, retake," but as a fellow repeat LSAT offender who got significantly worse scores on actual test days than in practice sessions, I can understand why a person might choose to abandon that front.

BigZuck
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Re: Temple (no debt) v Cornell (sticker)

Postby BigZuck » Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:27 am

I don't think 110K in debt at Cornell is the end of the world (unless the OP is also paying a ton in cash as well). I'm also not super optimistic the OP will get in again if he 165s the test one more time.

TUICE
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Re: Temple (no debt) v Cornell (sticker)

Postby TUICE » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:33 am

laotze wrote:Cornell at sticker is way too big a gamble if you are dead set on Philly biglaw specifically; the city isn't exactly swarming with major firms compared to the next-door NYC and DC markets. If you're willing to be geographically flexible - and it sounds like you may be, at least where NYC is concerned - Cornell may be worth the debt risk, but if you really absolutively posolutely want to work in Philly I would think Temple is the safer choice. My impression from talking to local lawyers (most of whom, granted, work for boutiques or small firms) is that it's an insular market and one filled (at least in non-biglaw firms) with predominantly Temple/Villanova/Rutgers grads, not out-of-state T14ers.

That said, your chances of landing Philly biglaw from Temple are likely slim without some seriously stellar grades and credentials.

Anyway, TLS wisdom is obviously "retake, retake, retake," but as a fellow repeat LSAT offender who got significantly worse scores on actual test days than in practice sessions, I can understand why a person might choose to abandon that front.


I'm not necessarily dead set on Philly, but I've lived there for 5 years and am comfortable moving forward there. I have never lived in New York, but I think I would probably like it. As for biglaw, having read some of the threads on here I have drank some of the TLS kool-aid on being skeptical about my willingness to stick out a career in biglaw strictly based on the low attrition rate. However, I know that, for the most part, if I elect to go to temple, biglaw jobs, and other potential opportunities, come off the table.

TUICE
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Re: Temple (no debt) v Cornell (sticker)

Postby TUICE » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:35 pm

I'm going to bump this since I need to make a decision pretty soon. Despite the clear winner in the poll (retake), if you had a gun to your head between temple and Cornell in my situation, which would it be? Just like the poll, I'm deadlocked between the two, and think there are compelling, albeit different, reasons to go to either school. The retake is still on the table for my personal deliberations, but the duplicate scores have me slightly unnerved about it.

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StillIll
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Re: Temple (no debt) v Cornell (sticker)

Postby StillIll » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:42 pm

Well it's not exactly Cornell at sticker, due to your sources of funding, right? Maybe technically, of course, but that might not be an accurate representation of what your choices are. People without reading comprehension might miss that 8)

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Clearly
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Re: Temple (no debt) v Cornell (sticker)

Postby Clearly » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:44 pm

If you can live with N.Y. and want biglaw, Cornell, otherwise, temple.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Temple (no debt) v Cornell (sticker)

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:47 pm

TUICE wrote:I'm going to bump this since I need to make a decision pretty soon. Despite the clear winner in the poll (retake), if you had a gun to your head between temple and Cornell in my situation, which would it be? Just like the poll, I'm deadlocked between the two, and think there are compelling, albeit different, reasons to go to either school. The retake is still on the table for my personal deliberations, but the duplicate scores have me slightly unnerved about it.


What kind of attorney do you want to be? at the end of the day, that is the decision here. If you want to work in a DA's office, as a local clerk, or at a small firm with <50 attorneys, but you could live doing part time doc review, go to temple and enjoy living debt free & working a standard 40 hr week making the average american household salary. If you want to work in a huge firm in downtown or midtown NYC, with offices across the country, work 70 hr weeks, make significantly higher than the average american but spend most of it on paying back your debt, enjoy Cornell. The debt (and $$ your family is paying) will impact your life and the life of your family in ways you cannot necessarily imagine now. What kind of life do you want for yourself and what kind of law do you want to practice? No one can tell you necessarily what will make YOU happy here.

BigZuck
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Re: Temple (no debt) v Cornell (sticker)

Postby BigZuck » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:52 pm

BigZuck wrote:I don't think 110K in debt at Cornell is the end of the world (unless the OP is also paying a ton in cash as well). I'm also not super optimistic the OP will get in again if he 165s the test one more time.

TUICE
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Re: Temple (no debt) v Cornell (sticker)

Postby TUICE » Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:44 pm

I think, ultimately, I like the idea of a biglaw salary and opportunities to move into an in-house job afterward more than the reality of the 70 hr workweek. I value a good work/life balance and I feel the freedom from debt gives me more opportunities to pursue a healthy balance. With that said, closing myself off from opportunities at a young age is something I am concerned with because I have no particularly concrete goals about where I want to head in law. I don't feel comfortable projecting exactly what type of career path I want at the age of 23, and I feel this is causing the most issues with my decision.

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jas1503
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Re: Temple (no debt) v Cornell (sticker)

Postby jas1503 » Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:24 pm

TUICE wrote:I have narrowed down my choices to Temple and Cornell

-Cornell COA = full sticker and according to their website it's 77k a year. I have some savings and family contributions that I can count on for 125k, which leaves about 105-110k to be debt financed.


"...A man refers to his Trust Fund as 'savings'"

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jbagelboy
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Re: Temple (no debt) v Cornell (sticker)

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:19 pm

jas1503 wrote:
TUICE wrote:I have narrowed down my choices to Temple and Cornell

-Cornell COA = full sticker and according to their website it's 77k a year. I have some savings and family contributions that I can count on for 125k, which leaves about 105-110k to be debt financed.


"...A man refers to his Trust Fund as 'savings'"


Lol yea this always cracks me up on TLS.

"Savings" is the $4000 you scrapped working PT senior yr at the science library and tutoring lin algebra so you can couchsurf across italy for 2 wks after graduation

$120,000 is a mother fucking ESTATE. Its not "savings". You didnt "save" it, you were entrusted with it or granted it by a very wealthy patron.

The distinction, and what it implies about an individuals' financial security, is so often lost here, along with the dangerous linguistic and socio-economic repercussions of confusing $ on that scale




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