Had a Full Ride at a T2

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Had a Full Ride at a T2

Postby rickgrimes69 » Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:41 pm

Presidentjlh wrote:
Cobretti wrote:
DaRascal wrote:I got sucked into the TLS prestige whore mentality. :roll:

You invented whole new levels of prestige whoring dude, don't blame TLS. You've told numerous ppl here to abandon $$ for peer schools ranked barely higher for no other reason than rank.

Besides, I wouldn't even say TLS is a prestige whoring place. If it whores anything, it's jobs.


Agreed. It drives me nuts when people talk about how TLS is "elitist" and a bunch of "prestige whores" when we are constantly telling people to disregard the rankings as essentially meaningless.

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Presidentjlh
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Re: Had a Full Ride at a T2

Postby Presidentjlh » Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:42 pm

DaRascal wrote:
francesfarmer wrote:
DaRascal wrote:Well it's awfully hard to have fun when you're working a $9/hour retail job over the summer because you can't get a callback from a decent job despite having a degree from a great school, have close to $40k in undergrad loans that need to start being paid back in six months, come from a poor background, and on top of all that you need to retake one of the toughest graduate school entry exams for a second time with little margin for error or else you'll likely be screwed.

Might as well study hard for a retake. Nothing to lose but time and effort I suppose. :|

Cry me a river. I took the LSAT when I was unemployed and living on a friend's couch. I survived on $2,000 over a period of 10 months. I had just lost a parent. Self-pity does not help.


It's not self-pity, it's just frustration about not pulling the trigger on law school this year given my situation and now gambling on a retake when it could easily backfire on me. Oh well better just get to studying. Where's Noodley's guide at.... :)

Retakes can't really backfire on you. Most schools take the highest score. You have nothing to lose, and everything to gain.

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Br3v
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Re: Had a Full Ride at a T2

Postby Br3v » Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:44 pm

Just hang in there DR. A positive attitude will get you a long way and you said yourself you didn't put your heart into the other retake.

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Presidentjlh
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Re: Had a Full Ride at a T2

Postby Presidentjlh » Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:45 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:
Presidentjlh wrote:
Cobretti wrote:
DaRascal wrote:I got sucked into the TLS prestige whore mentality. :roll:

You invented whole new levels of prestige whoring dude, don't blame TLS. You've told numerous ppl here to abandon $$ for peer schools ranked barely higher for no other reason than rank.

Besides, I wouldn't even say TLS is a prestige whoring place. If it whores anything, it's jobs.


Agreed. It drives me nuts when people talk about how TLS is "elitist" and a bunch of "prestige whores" when we are constantly telling people to disregard the rankings as essentially meaningless.

People just get really defensive and that's the first thing that comes to their mind. I'll admit when I joined, I reacted that way initially, but, yeah, if anything, we're trying to save people from themselves, it's just people don't take criticism easily, even though the intent is good.

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DaRascal
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Re: Had a Full Ride at a T2

Postby DaRascal » Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:53 pm

.
Last edited by DaRascal on Mon May 05, 2014 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Presidentjlh
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Re: Had a Full Ride at a T2

Postby Presidentjlh » Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:55 pm

DaRascal wrote:President, I meant the whole retake/reapply route is a gamble. Anyone who does it is giving up a year of his/her life (if they aren't already working a good job) banking on a higher LSAT score when he/she may already have decent options on the table. My options this year weren't ideal but I still think they could have been just as worth gambling on as retaking and reapplying. TLS dissuaded me from taking them and I'm still not convinced that I made a good decision.

I'll give you this, yes, that is a gamble. But it is a much less risky gamble than going to a law school that only has 40% of its grads get jobs as lawyers.

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Br3v
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Re: Had a Full Ride at a T2

Postby Br3v » Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:56 pm

DaRascal wrote:President, I meant the whole retake/reapply route is a gamble. Anyone who does it is giving up a year of his/her life (if they aren't already working a good job) banking on a higher LSAT score when he/she may already have decent options on the table. My options this year weren't ideal but I still think they could have been just as worth gambling on as retaking and reapplying. TLS dissuaded me from taking them and I'm still not convinced that I made a good decision.


This is easy to say and not easy to do but there is no point wallowing in past choices now. Learn from the past and apply it towards a better future.

For real what difference is it going to make when you retire rich at 61 instead of 60?

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francesfarmer
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Re: Had a Full Ride at a T2

Postby francesfarmer » Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:57 pm

Br3v wrote:
DaRascal wrote:President, I meant the whole retake/reapply route is a gamble. Anyone who does it is giving up a year of his/her life (if they aren't already working a good job) banking on a higher LSAT score when he/she may already have decent options on the table. My options this year weren't ideal but I still think they could have been just as worth gambling on as retaking and reapplying. TLS dissuaded me from taking them and I'm still not convinced that I made a good decision.


This is easy to say and not easy to do but there is no point wallowing in past choices now. Learn from the past and apply it towards a better future.

For real what difference is it going to make when you retire rich at 61 instead of 60?

LOL at anyone in our generation retiring at 60

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Presidentjlh
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Re: Had a Full Ride at a T2

Postby Presidentjlh » Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:57 pm

francesfarmer wrote:
Br3v wrote:
DaRascal wrote:President, I meant the whole retake/reapply route is a gamble. Anyone who does it is giving up a year of his/her life (if they aren't already working a good job) banking on a higher LSAT score when he/she may already have decent options on the table. My options this year weren't ideal but I still think they could have been just as worth gambling on as retaking and reapplying. TLS dissuaded me from taking them and I'm still not convinced that I made a good decision.


This is easy to say and not easy to do but there is no point wallowing in past choices now. Learn from the past and apply it towards a better future.

For real what difference is it going to make when you retire rich at 61 instead of 60?

LOL at anyone in our generation retiring at 60


Lol indeed.

*cough75ifluckycough*

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sublime
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Re: Had a Full Ride at a T2

Postby sublime » Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:03 pm

..

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sinfiery
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Re: Had a Full Ride at a T2

Postby sinfiery » Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:40 pm

DaRascal wrote:President, I meant the whole retake/reapply route is a gamble. Anyone who does it is giving up a year of his/her life (if they aren't already working a good job) banking on a higher LSAT score when he/she may already have decent options on the table. My options this year weren't ideal but I still think they could have been just as worth gambling on as retaking and reapplying. TLS dissuaded me from taking them and I'm still not convinced that I made a good decision.

You've got Oct and Dec retakes to go.

The risk/reward ratio of LS admissions is amazing. You lose out on a year, but that's it. In the grand scheme of things, the chance of your improved job prospects or improved chance of not being debt owned will outweigh another year of your life left to work too many hours for a job you may or may not like.
The best part of enjoying your twenties will be this year and the three in LS. This isn't a bad thing. ($7.50/hr job and 26k UG debt on my year off here)

Put your all into the retakes and then go and live up your 20s

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Had a Full Ride at a T2

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:42 pm

The MCAT is not at all difficult, it's just tedious. The GMAT is only a little more difficult than the SAT.

The LSAT is the only graduate exam that actually represents anything approximating an intellectually difficult test.

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Cobretti
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Re: Had a Full Ride at a T2

Postby Cobretti » Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:25 am

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:The MCAT is not at all difficult, it's just tedious. The GMAT is only a little more difficult than the SAT.

The LSAT is the only graduate exam that actually represents anything approximating an intellectually difficult test.

I've done lsat and gmat, and the lsat was definitely on another level. This is also common knowledge to anyone looking at professional degrees, no idea what Sublime is talking about.

mr.hands
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Re: Had a Full Ride at a T2

Postby mr.hands » Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:36 am

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:The MCAT is not at all difficult, it's just tedious. The GMAT is only a little more difficult than the SAT.

The LSAT is the only graduate exam that actually represents anything approximating an intellectually difficult test.


You have no idea what you're talking about.

Median MCAT scores don't get into medical school and the testtakers are on average way more intelligent than prelaw students.

The LSAT is a fucking joke. Any monkey can learn it in a couple months

(the GMAT is also absurdly easy)

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Had a Full Ride at a T2

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:48 am

mr.hands wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:The MCAT is not at all difficult, it's just tedious. The GMAT is only a little more difficult than the SAT.

The LSAT is the only graduate exam that actually represents anything approximating an intellectually difficult test.


You have no idea what you're talking about.

Median MCAT scores don't get into medical school and the testtakers are on average way more intelligent than prelaw students.

The LSAT is a fucking joke. Any monkey can learn it in a couple months

(the GMAT is also absurdly easy)


If the law school market weren't oversaturated, median LSAT scores wouldn't get into law school. The fact that TTTTs dip below the median doesn't make the test easier.

I'd argue the LSAT is less "learnable" than any of the other tests. It takes a much longer period of time to prepare for the MCAT, but the questions are then relatively straightforward. I think it's easier to get a 39 on the MCAT than to get a 175 on the LSAT.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Had a Full Ride at a T2

Postby rickgrimes69 » Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:59 am

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:I'd argue the LSAT is less "learnable" than any of the other tests. It takes a much longer period of time to prepare for the MCAT, but the questions are then relatively straightforward. I think it's easier to get a 39 on the MCAT than to get a 175 on the LSAT.


I don't know much about the MCAT, but I do know the LSAT is extremely learnable. Out of those three, it's the only one that doesn't require any background knowledge - everything you need to know is right there on the page. At it's core it's a 3 part reading comprehension test with some logic puzzles thrown in.

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romothesavior
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Re: Had a Full Ride at a T2

Postby romothesavior » Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:36 am

DaRascal wrote:Ugh this is so upsetting. I should have just put my deposit down but a lot of people here were telling me not to go to this school but it's a solid regional and it was free and the stips weren't bad at all. I mean this is really on me though but it would have helped if I had just been told good things. Looks like I really do have to retake/reapply but I'm extremely skeptical about this route. I just don't see all the positives I saw before. Law school isn't worth massive debt, my urm boost is practically non-existent seeing as I can't even crack the T20 with the numbers I have right now so that puts the pressure on me to get a much higher score on a retake or else I feel like I'll be left with the same options I have right about now. And even if I increase I'm realizing that NJ/NY is the only place I want to practice and I feel like Fordham wouldn't even be open to me with a realistic 3-4 point increase considering how stingy they are with scholarship money.

So the T2 was definitely my best option. I used to think short-sided and believe that some schools were worth sticker but if you get your ass kicked at those schools then you're doomed to an average-paying job at best anyway right (except with all the debt to boot)?

This is the most coherent and intelligent thing you've ever said on this site, so congrats on that.

As others have said, you are (maybe were? lets hope its past tense) one of the most frustrating and trolly posters in the Choosing forums because of this perverse law school framework that YOU created in your own head. Telling people to go to tier 1 schools at sticker because they're "worth it," telling people to ignore money from similarly ranked schools to go to schools just barely ranked higher in the USNWR, giving juvenile reasons for where to go to law school ("Go to XYZ School... Sweet beaches and a fun party scene! :P ")... and now you are saying that you were caught up in the TLS "prestige whoring" hivemind and parroting back our advice? C'mon man. Until now you've pretty much ignored our advice at every turn and forged ahead based on your own misconceptions. Don't blame your inability to be rational and mature about this decision on us.

Thankfully, it sounds like you're starting to think critically about law school and you're coming at the investment with a better approach. Big debt from a school that fails to place a third of their students into legal jobs and only places 1/3 or less into high-paying jobs (i.e., just about every law school in the country) is a bad idea. BU/BC are solid schools, but they aren't worth the debt, and I'm glad you're coming around to that. That said, stop feeling sorry for yourself... you won't find much pity here. Tons of people on here have studied for the LSAT while working terrible jobs, taking care of kids, etc. I actually envy you in some respects, as looking back I should have waited tables for a year and retaken the LSAT one more time for a 170+. Don't view this as some dark and empty time in your life; this is a great opportunity.

Ask yourself this question: did you bust your ass on your LSAT the last time? Have you gotten your hands on all the materials you can possibly get your hands on? Did you thoroughly analyze the problems you were missing? Did you make a study plan and stick to it? If no to any of those, then there are still points on the table for you. Even if yes, there may still be points out there. Gun for a 170+. This test is by far the most important you will ever take. You need to take it very seriously, study very hard, and be willing to keep trying on it until you get to where you need to be.

With a better LSAT score and a better approach, I'm sure you will have much more success next cycle. Best of luck.

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untar614
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Re: Had a Full Ride at a T2

Postby untar614 » Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:45 am

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
mr.hands wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:The MCAT is not at all difficult, it's just tedious. The GMAT is only a little more difficult than the SAT.

The LSAT is the only graduate exam that actually represents anything approximating an intellectually difficult test.


You have no idea what you're talking about.

Median MCAT scores don't get into medical school and the testtakers are on average way more intelligent than prelaw students.

The LSAT is a fucking joke. Any monkey can learn it in a couple months

(the GMAT is also absurdly easy)


If the law school market weren't oversaturated, median LSAT scores wouldn't get into law school. The fact that TTTTs dip below the median doesn't make the test easier.

I'd argue the LSAT is less "learnable" than any of the other tests. It takes a much longer period of time to prepare for the MCAT, but the questions are then relatively straightforward. I think it's easier to get a 39 on the MCAT than to get a 175 on the LSAT.


I've actually taken most of the major grad school standardized tests, and I definitely found the MCAT the hardest. The GRE is dirt easy, and the only thing standing in the way of a perfect score is a few obscure vocab words that no one ever uses in real life - the actual verbal skills needed are very simple. GMAT is pretty similar. Math is a bit trickier and requires some knowledge of probability, but still very ace-able. The LSAT is still pretty reasonable to ace with just a bit of luck in not getting any real curveballs (there's usually at least one, but I have seen old tests I likely could've aced). The MCAT though, for one, it requires far more background info than any other test. Yes, that contributes to the tedious part. But being able to both retain all this infor and how to apply the concepts on such broad topics is very difficult. Acing the MCAT is a feat far far more difficult than for any of these other tests. (Haven't taken DAT, but I've looked at practice exams - the visual perception may be hard if you just aren't naturally good at that, but the science is similar but easier than the MCAT's).

ETA: admittedly, I took the MCAT much earlier on than the others, so that may have contributed, but I have been working with some people now in prepping for the MCAT, and it's still tough. A lot of questions can be unclear and easy to miss very fine points, and the verbal is at least as difficult as the LSAT's RC section.

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jselson
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Re: Had a Full Ride at a T2

Postby jselson » Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:29 pm

If we're arguing test difficulty, the GRE subject tests can be incredibly difficult. The GRE subject test in English was the hardest standardized test I've ever taken. Thankfully, they don't matter as much as the LSAT for PhD programs, and it's usually more of a "can you get above this baseline score" rather than "get the absolute highest score you can no matter what." But that baseline score is still pretty high. I know a lot of people who take a year off doing nothing but studying for the GRE English test because of the massive amount of material you have to know before going in. And only about half the questions are knowledge identification/regurgitation, the rest is reading comprehension and literary critical analysis. Very few people finish the test. It's basically, "You have 4 hours. Go."

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Re: Had a Full Ride at a T2

Postby mr.hands » Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:05 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
mr.hands wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:The MCAT is not at all difficult, it's just tedious. The GMAT is only a little more difficult than the SAT.

The LSAT is the only graduate exam that actually represents anything approximating an intellectually difficult test.


You have no idea what you're talking about.

Median MCAT scores don't get into medical school and the testtakers are on average way more intelligent than prelaw students.

The LSAT is a fucking joke. Any monkey can learn it in a couple months

(the GMAT is also absurdly easy)


If the law school market weren't oversaturated, median LSAT scores wouldn't get into law school. The fact that TTTTs dip below the median doesn't make the test easier.

I'd argue the LSAT is less "learnable" than any of the other tests. It takes a much longer period of time to prepare for the MCAT, but the questions are then relatively straightforward. I think it's easier to get a 39 on the MCAT than to get a 175 on the LSAT.


This is ludicrous. The LSAT requires no knowledge whatsoever. You can teach yourself with a book. Hell, TLS always preaches "retake" bc it can be done by anyone with a few months and determination.

MCAT questions aren't straightforward. It's not a test w clear answers. It has the same traps as the LSAT

Your post suggests that you've never seen an MCAT question before. Also this "39 v 175" thing is entirely made up and has no basis in fact or experience

"The MCAT is not at all difficult"....lol sure

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romothesavior
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Re: Had a Full Ride at a T2

Postby romothesavior » Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:37 pm

This is a stupid argument that comes up here all. the. time.

If you gave me or just about any other non-science person 3 months of intense prep, we couldn't crack the 50th percentile on the MCAT.

If you gave the average pre-med student 3 months to study, I'm pretty sure almost every one of them would be in the 90th percentile or higher. It's simply an easier test that most intelligent people can master.

Pretty much anybody can do reasonably well on the LSAT with enough prep. The problem is that instead of treating it like the most important exam of their lives, the average pre-law student taking the LSAT wings it or puts in minimal effort. Meanwhile, the pre-med students go into months of virtual hibernation for their exam.

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sinfiery
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Re: Had a Full Ride at a T2

Postby sinfiery » Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:45 pm

This is silly. None of these tests are difficult. They are admissions test and so everything is relative to how others around you do. Med schools have to accept 16,000 applicants each year and so doing well on the MCAT depends on doing worse than no more than 16,000 people. The actual test is pointless.
Law schools accept a higher % of LSAT test takers and so it can be argued is easier, but if you don't want to be on PAYE your whole life, it.becomes substantially harder than the MCAT when you realize a 164 is the 90%.

The LSAT is probably the hardest test because there is less of a material load that people who work hard can use to bridge the inherent intelligence difference between people. But we here on TLS know that this is stupidly exaggerated because you can definitely study to improve your score by leaps and bounds.

But guess what? Wanna know the real scam? The same thing is true for IQ tests....


Romo, let us lol at premeds as we lol at prelaws

Image

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Had a Full Ride at a T2

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:18 pm

This notion that the MCAT is more difficult just because it takes more time to be able to score highly is misguided. The fact that graduating from college takes four years does not make it harder than the four-hour LSAT.

The MCAT is more of a knowledge test than the LSAT. It rewards people who can memorize a large list of what things do and how they function together with other things. The LSAT is more of a skills test. Like any skill, you get better the more you practice. But you are much more liable to reach a cap on how well you can perform a skill than how many things you can learn. On the LSAT, you can have people who worked their butts off and simply don't have the intellectual abilities in these areas (n.b. this is not the same thing as saying they're stupid) to crack 160. On the MCAT, you can have relatively poor reasoning skills and still get a decent score by being the guy who burns the candle at both ends making sure he memorizes the structure and function of every possible thing. There is less of a "maximum" someone could potentially get on the MCAT because it's easier to learn more facts than gain the ability to reason more efficiently. The MCAT's top scorers are more likely to have outworked their peers than the LSAT's top scorers, which I think renders the LSAT more difficult: Increased effort is no guarantee of success--you might just flat-out not be good at it. MCAT scorers are not just going to waltz in and score 170s without breaking a sweat.

I think plenty of you are getting hypnotized into thinking 170 is easy because a lot of TLSers do it, ignoring that this is a highly self-selected population and that's a score that 1.5% of test takers are going to achieve. The fact that one can improve on the LSAT does not mean practice assures one of a good score; it is a test that is natural to some and not to others. Some people could score very highly on their diagnostic test without ever having seen a question before, while others may not get a good score no matter how hard they try.

mr.hands
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Re: Had a Full Ride at a T2

Postby mr.hands » Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:41 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote: On the MCAT, you can have relatively poor reasoning skills and still get a decent score by being the guy who burns the candle at both ends making sure he memorizes the structure and function of every possible thing. There is less of a "maximum" someone could potentially get on the MCAT because it's easier to learn more facts than gain the ability to reason more efficiently.


You've never taken an MCAT practice test have you? It's not just learning facts. Memorization isnt how you get a good score, that's a baseline that every test-taker has.

Also, dude, there's a reasoning section on the MCAT. These broad strokes that your drawing are silly. You have no clue what you're talking about

At least we all agree that the GMAT is a cake walk

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jingosaur
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Re: Had a Full Ride at a T2

Postby jingosaur » Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:25 pm

I'm glad we all hijacked the thread of someone who's infamous for hijacking threads.

Ranking the tests by difficulty depends on what you mean by "difficult". Does it mean difficulty of getting a perfect score, difficulty of getting a score that will get you into the top school, or difficulty of getting a score that will get you into any school?

I've taken the GMAT and LSAT and I would say GMAT is harder for getting a perfect score because there are so many different subject areas and there are very few people with strong quantitative AND reasoning skills. In addition, 1 wrong on GMAT verbal takes away your 800. For getting a score that will get you into the top school, the LSAT is much more difficult. A 173 LSAT requires a lot more work and skills than a 730 GMAT. For getting into any school, both the LSAT and GMAT are moot because there are schools that will take pretty much anyone.




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