Chicago $$$ v Harvard

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

???

Chicago COA $105,000
91
63%
Harvard COA $250,000
54
37%
 
Total votes: 145

NYstate
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Re: Chicago $$$ v Harvard

Postby NYstate » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:25 am

Chicago has a great reputation. I don't know why anyone would turn down money at Chicago to pay more to go to Harvard. Maybe if they are independently wealthy and their family is prestige obsessed.

The 0Ls love of lay prestige just doesn't translate once you are working. It just doesn't matter. I have never heard a Chicago grad say that they regret not going to Harvard. I'm sure that going to Chicago will not be something you may hypothetically regret in your imaginary future life. I mean no one ever got turned down for partner because they went to Chicago instead of Harvard. At the same time Harvard doesn't mean you have an easier shot at partner.( Though maybe Harvard people secretly wish they could have gone to Yale, hard to know. Chasing prestige is an endless and unfulfilling past time.)

This is real money, cash dollars, on the table. You would be foolish to turn it down. You will be so glad not to be burdened by the same massive debt level as the sticker paying masses.
Last edited by NYstate on Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Chicago $$$ v Harvard

Postby NYstate » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:30 am

sinfiery wrote:I'm pretty sure if I see two resumes 20 years from now, one with HLS on it and the other with UChi - full ride, I will be more impressed by the UChi resume (just barely)...and I'm sure most people within our field will feel as close to indifferent about the two as I do.


The difference in lay prestige though....is shocking. Even Yale is a TTT in comparison. UChi doesn't even register.

This is sheer nonsense. What matters in 20 years is the work, connections, clients. The difference between where you went to school between these top schools doesn't matter.
I would say it doesn't matter at any time in your career. Chicago isn't holding anyone back.

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EijiMiyake
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Re: Chicago $$$ v Harvard

Postby EijiMiyake » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:48 am

Edited.
Last edited by EijiMiyake on Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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sinfiery
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Re: Chicago $$$ v Harvard

Postby sinfiery » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:54 am

NYstate wrote:
sinfiery wrote:I'm pretty sure if I see two resumes 20 years from now, one with HLS on it and the other with UChi - full ride, I will be more impressed by the UChi resume (just barely)...and I'm sure most people within our field will feel as close to indifferent about the two as I do.


The difference in lay prestige though....is shocking. Even Yale is a TTT in comparison. UChi doesn't even register.

This is sheer nonsense. What matters in 20 years is the work, connections, clients. The difference between where you went to school between these top schools doesn't matter.
I would say it doesn't matter at any time in your career. Chicago isn't holding anyone back.



I never said it mattered but was more speaking to, as being a future lawyer, if it did matter in a decision, I likely would see the two things on a resume as equals.

I am firm in my stance that I don't actually know anything though.

For the lay prestige tho, I will not budge. Just LOL at peoples faces when you mention Harvard.

Paul Campos
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Re: Chicago $$$ v Harvard

Postby Paul Campos » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:01 pm

The prestige-obsession of 0Ls, law students, and law faculty has played a huge role in creating the current mess. That obsession is what gives the ridiculous rankings their influence, and those rankings are the primary justification schools use for constantly jacking up their operating costs. The ONLY difference going to HLS rather than UC will make, beyond the very small difference it makes at the entry level, is if you're being considered for one of two jobs:

(1) SCOTUS justice

(2) HLS or YLS tenure track faculty (I guess that adds up to three jobs).

This "lay prestige" nonsense is particularly obnoxious. In this context, it adds up to arguing that you ought to spend $150,000 extra in order to make a slightly better initial impression at cocktail parties.

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untar614
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Re: Chicago $$$ v Harvard

Postby untar614 » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:04 pm

yes, it's unfortunate that most of the lay public know very little about academic institutions. And I'd still agree that overall, Harvard is the best university in the world, but that doesn't make it the best for every individual program. In law here, Yale is better. In economics, Princeton wins (and IMO, Chicago beats Harvard here too). MIT and Stanford are better in most of the science fields. For engineering, Harvard isn't even close to the top - places like Georgia Tech, which a lot of people may not even think about, are way better for engineering. But the lay public would probably be more impressed by someone with an advanced engineering degree from Harvard than from Georgia Tech.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Chicago $$$ v Harvard

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:21 pm

The prestige issue shouldn't be relevant here. This has been hashed out on other threads, but basically, going to Harvard doesn't make your dick bigger. Especially not for law school. UChi is incredibly prestigious and very highly regarded by anyone who knows anything in academia or law. Others have already pointed out that "down the road", you're employment history and professional references will matter more as the name of your pedigree fades. Let's not fool ourselves. As for employment, biglaw is a wash and the opportunity gap for clerkships is less than 4%. Campos summarized the advantages of a harvard degree in jobs; I would add obtaining certain fed/DC positions straight out of LS to that list since this would be easier out of H.

What no one has raised here, and what to me might be a compelling issue if the employment data and the $$ isn't convincing you, is that the two schools have very different vibes and student/faculty cultures. UChi is 1) a very small law school, 2) on a quarter system with a highly focused intellectually rigorous base, and 3) graded on a point system. Harvard, conversely, is 1) a huge law school, 2) on a regular schedule with impressive students but a different academic emphasis and 3) ungraded. Do these features of the schools matter at all? Have you visited Cambridge & Hyde Park and seen any preference? One is incredibly urban, the other is spectacular in scale but further removed from the city.

Obviously don't make your decision on the sole basis of the above, but since either choice is somewhat justifiable (personally Chicago makes more sense IMO), definitely consider which YOU would prefer. They are not the same in character or student composition.

NYstate
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Re: Chicago $$$ v Harvard

Postby NYstate » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:32 pm

[quote="untar614"]yes, it's unfortunate that most of the lay public know very little about academic institutions. And I'd still agree that overall, Harvard is the best university in the world, but that doesn't make it the best for every individual program. In law here, Yale is better. In economics, Princeton wins (and IMO, Chicago beats Harvard here too). MIT and Stanford are better in most of the science fields. For engineering, Harvard isn't even close to the top - places like Georgia Tech, which a lot of people may not even think about, are way better for engineering. But the lay public would probably be more impressed by someone with an advanced engineering degree from Harvard than from Georgia Tech.[/]

In biglaw lay prestige is irrelevant. And around the people you will be working with and your clients and the friends you will make, lay prestige is meaningless.

I don't know why people care. To the people that will matter for your career and in your life, these two schools are extremely prestigious. Maybe when you stop caring about what your clueless neighbor thinks you will understand what I mean. And you will probably be happier. If someone can diminish your self- worth because of where you went to law school, then I think you may have some fundamental issues that going to Harvard won't fix.

I see people like this all the time. Growing up in prestige ubsessed MFH taught me that you can't let your worth be determined by stuff like this. In manhattan it starts with nursery school and it never ends- even which funeral home you use matters. Buy into that lifestyle at your own peril. Someone will always have something or done one thing more prestigious than you. You have to be comfortable with who you are otherwise you will never be satisfied. Example: do you manage to get/ afford the right country club? After you get there, can you get a cabana? After waiting 15 years on a list, will you be able to chose the "right" cabana? If so, can you get the right people in as guests? How will they behave? What will they wear? Will they have the right bag and sunglasses? And if all that works out- you still will have fruends who just flew down from the house in Maine in their private plane just to make the Fourth of July fireworks on the beach because its always been a family tradition.

You have to get off that bus at some point.

OP: you shouldn't turn your back on more than a hundred thousand dollars. That you even have to ask this question makes me wonder about your judgement. And yes, at the end of the day, good judgment is a lawyers best asset and it can't be taught.


Edit: the "you" isn't referring to a specific person. Just a general rant from someone who has lived in a prestige obsessed microcosm forever and sees the damage, and lack of fulfillment, chasing it causes. I could entertain you with a million stories- like the time at a Mother's Day lunch the topic was how do you raise girls who won't be upset if they don't have the latest handbag. And this was a charity speaker at a church. My mom and sister told me about that one.
Last edited by NYstate on Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Chicago $$$ v Harvard

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:37 pm

NYstate wrote:
OP: you shouldn't turn your back on more than a hundred thousand dollars. That you even have to ask this question makes me wonder about your judgement. And yes, at the end of the day, good judgment is a lawyers best asset and it can't be taught.


While I agree Chicago is TCR, this isn't really fair. I think anyone who got into Harvard off the WL would at least consider going (unless maybe they were already in at Yale). Of course it's worth asking the question, even if just for confirmation that it's okay to take the $$ and run.

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Re: Chicago $$$ v Harvard

Postby beepboopbeep » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:44 pm

You should totally go to Harvard. Debt? Who cares! Harvard is Harvard.

I am not making this post because I want your UofC spot/money. You should take this advice seriously.

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Re: Chicago $$$ v Harvard

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:45 pm

beepboopbeep wrote:You should totally go to Harvard. Debt? Who cares! Harvard is Harvard.

I am not making this post because I want your UofC spot/money. You should take this advice seriously.


on this note, according to North's Class of 2016 forum, OP has already chosen to attend Harvard, unless that choice was made prior to getting off the UChi WL. Also beepboopbeep, would you bail on us if you got chicago? :(

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Lavitz
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Re: Chicago $$$ v Harvard

Postby Lavitz » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:49 pm

jbagelboy wrote:that choice was made prior to getting off the UChi WL.

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Re: Chicago $$$ v Harvard

Postby kaiser » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:49 pm

Paul Campos wrote:The prestige-obsession of 0Ls, law students, and law faculty has played a huge role in creating the current mess. That obsession is what gives the ridiculous rankings their influence, and those rankings are the primary justification schools use for constantly jacking up their operating costs. The ONLY difference going to HLS rather than UC will make, beyond the very small difference it makes at the entry level, is if you're being considered for one of two jobs:

(1) SCOTUS justice

(2) HLS or YLS tenure track faculty (I guess that adds up to three jobs).

This "lay prestige" nonsense is particularly obnoxious. In this context, it adds up to arguing that you ought to spend $150,000 extra in order to make a slightly better initial impression at cocktail parties.


Its the same reason why I keep saying that the voting should provide a breakdown based on class year. If TLS users were identified by class year (say, a different color based on whether you are 0L, 1L, 2L, or 0L vs. current student vs. grad), it would make TLS so much better. Advice would be more useful because you would know the experience level of the speaker. And if we could see breakdowns of voting threads by class year, we would be able to discount for the "0L factor" that tends to skew so many threads and so often create nonsensical results.

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Re: Chicago $$$ v Harvard

Postby NYstate » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:51 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
NYstate wrote:
OP: you shouldn't turn your back on more than a hundred thousand dollars. That you even have to ask this question makes me wonder about your judgement. And yes, at the end of the day, good judgment is a lawyers best asset and it can't be taught.


While I agree Chicago is TCR, this isn't really fair. I think anyone who got into Harvard off the WL would at least consider going (unless maybe they were already in at Yale). Of course it's worth asking the question, even if just for confirmation that it's okay to take the $$ and run.


Probably true. Maybe money means more to me than other people. And maybe not having debt means more to me too. Just think what you could do with $100,000 or $150,000 that you don't have to repay. Saving that money will make a big difference in your life. That is a lot of money. Lol.

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Re: Chicago $$$ v Harvard

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:53 pm

Lavitz wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:that choice was made prior to getting off the UChi WL.


TY for clarification

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Re: Chicago $$$ v Harvard

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:57 pm

kaiser wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:The prestige-obsession of 0Ls, law students, and law faculty has played a huge role in creating the current mess. That obsession is what gives the ridiculous rankings their influence, and those rankings are the primary justification schools use for constantly jacking up their operating costs. The ONLY difference going to HLS rather than UC will make, beyond the very small difference it makes at the entry level, is if you're being considered for one of two jobs:

(1) SCOTUS justice

(2) HLS or YLS tenure track faculty (I guess that adds up to three jobs).

This "lay prestige" nonsense is particularly obnoxious. In this context, it adds up to arguing that you ought to spend $150,000 extra in order to make a slightly better initial impression at cocktail parties.


Its the same reason why I keep saying that the voting should provide a breakdown based on class year. If TLS users were identified by class year (say, a different color based on whether you are 0L, 1L, 2L, or 0L vs. current student vs. grad), it would make TLS so much better. Advice would be more useful because you would know the experience level of the speaker. And if we could see breakdowns of voting threads by class year, we would be able to discount for the "0L factor" that tends to skew so many threads and so often create nonsensical results.


It's not so black and white. Plenty of us are capable of making informed decisions. I voted UChicago here, just as I'm sure BruceWayne (a bitter 3L) voted Harvard. Trolls abound each year of law school, and some of the most enlightened commentary and most substantive analysis has been performed by 0L's this cycle

NYstate
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Re: Chicago $$$ v Harvard

Postby NYstate » Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:02 pm

Paul Campos wrote:The prestige-obsession of 0Ls, law students, and law faculty has played a huge role in creating the current mess. That obsession is what gives the ridiculous rankings their influence, and those rankings are the primary justification schools use for constantly jacking up their operating costs. The ONLY difference going to HLS rather than UC will make, beyond the very small difference it makes at the entry level, is if you're being considered for one of two jobs:

(1) SCOTUS justice

(2) HLS or YLS tenure track faculty (I guess that adds up to three jobs).

This "lay prestige" nonsense is particularly obnoxious. In this context, it adds up to arguing that you ought to spend $150,000 extra in order to make a slightly better initial impression at cocktail parties.


True. And the cocktail parties you will be attending people will care primarily about the prestige of your firm or bigfed job. Harvard and a V25 won't impress more than the Chicago V5. I'm not joking. Most everyone there will be from a top school or married to someone from a top school.

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Re: Chicago $$$ v Harvard

Postby BruceWayne » Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:05 pm

I'm usually strongly anti debt. But if you're trying to work at a firm in Texas or the South it's definitely worth the extra money to go to Harvard. I don't think a lot of people realize how hard it is to get a firm job outside of NYC or outside of the school's home market for a non HYS school. You really don't have a good shot at a firm job in Texas or in the South coming from a non HYS top 14 with below median grades. Whereas you do coming from Harvard. You could easily go to UChicago and be shut out of Texas/Southern big law. The other thing making it worth it is that LIPP is ridiculous. It's a legit fallback option for big debt unlike the lower top 14 LRAPs.

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Re: Chicago $$$ v Harvard

Postby onionz » Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:09 pm

As someone on the UChicago waitlist, I have to say, go to Harvard! :-D

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Re: Chicago $$$ v Harvard

Postby beepboopbeep » Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:10 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
beepboopbeep wrote:I am not making this post because I want your UofC spot/money. You should take this advice seriously.


Also beepboopbeep, would you bail on us if you got chicago? :(


It's a tough call. I love my apartment in Hyde Park, and I'm not so keen on the $2k/mo closet I've got lined up for fall at CLS. But, the CLS money is good, so without something similar at UC I'd definitely stay CLS. My GF is also in Chicago for the next year so moving to NYC is simultaneously exciting and a bummer.

In summary, OP, you should base your choice on how it will affect me.

But if you're considering your own well-being instead, take the money and run.

onionz wrote:As someone on the UChicago waitlist, I have to say, go to Harvard! :-D

kaiser
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Re: Chicago $$$ v Harvard

Postby kaiser » Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:12 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
kaiser wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:The prestige-obsession of 0Ls, law students, and law faculty has played a huge role in creating the current mess. That obsession is what gives the ridiculous rankings their influence, and those rankings are the primary justification schools use for constantly jacking up their operating costs. The ONLY difference going to HLS rather than UC will make, beyond the very small difference it makes at the entry level, is if you're being considered for one of two jobs:

(1) SCOTUS justice

(2) HLS or YLS tenure track faculty (I guess that adds up to three jobs).

This "lay prestige" nonsense is particularly obnoxious. In this context, it adds up to arguing that you ought to spend $150,000 extra in order to make a slightly better initial impression at cocktail parties.


Its the same reason why I keep saying that the voting should provide a breakdown based on class year. If TLS users were identified by class year (say, a different color based on whether you are 0L, 1L, 2L, or 0L vs. current student vs. grad), it would make TLS so much better. Advice would be more useful because you would know the experience level of the speaker. And if we could see breakdowns of voting threads by class year, we would be able to discount for the "0L factor" that tends to skew so many threads and so often create nonsensical results.


It's not so black and white. Plenty of us are capable of making informed decisions. I voted UChicago here, just as I'm sure BruceWayne (a bitter 3L) voted Harvard. Trolls abound each year of law school, and some of the most enlightened commentary and most substantive analysis has been performed by 0L's this cycle


I'm not saying that we should just discount all advice and insight coming from 0L's. I'm just saying that, when we see a stark divide that happens to correlate a bit too much along the lines of a 0L vs. current student divide, it should at least give some reason for pause. Obviously it will almost never be the case that 100% of 0L's vote one way while 100% of current students vote the other. its never a black and white issue, but it would be useful to know if a solid majority of votes for one particular choice happen to be coming from a particular group (or if the majority of voters from one subset skew largely to one side).

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2014
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Re: Chicago $$$ v Harvard

Postby 2014 » Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:11 pm

jbagelboy wrote:It's not so black and white. Plenty of us are capable of making informed decisions. I voted UChicago here, just as I'm sure BruceWayne (a bitter 3L) voted Harvard.


BruceWayne wrote:I'm usually strongly anti debt. But if you're trying to work at a firm in Texas or the South it's definitely worth the extra money to go to Harvard. I don't think a lot of people realize how hard it is to get a firm job outside of NYC or outside of the school's home market for a non HYS school.



This was a very underrated exchanged, perfectly delivered

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jbagelboy
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Re: Chicago $$$ v Harvard

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:33 pm

2014 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:It's not so black and white. Plenty of us are capable of making informed decisions. I voted UChicago here, just as I'm sure BruceWayne (a bitter 3L) voted Harvard.


BruceWayne wrote:I'm usually strongly anti debt. But if you're trying to work at a firm in Texas or the South it's definitely worth the extra money to go to Harvard. I don't think a lot of people realize how hard it is to get a firm job outside of NYC or outside of the school's home market for a non HYS school.



This was a very underrated exchanged, perfectly delivered


you mean cause I called it? lol

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2014
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Re: Chicago $$$ v Harvard

Postby 2014 » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:38 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
2014 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:It's not so black and white. Plenty of us are capable of making informed decisions. I voted UChicago here, just as I'm sure BruceWayne (a bitter 3L) voted Harvard.


BruceWayne wrote:I'm usually strongly anti debt. But if you're trying to work at a firm in Texas or the South it's definitely worth the extra money to go to Harvard. I don't think a lot of people realize how hard it is to get a firm job outside of NYC or outside of the school's home market for a non HYS school.



This was a very underrated exchanged, perfectly delivered


you mean cause I called it? lol

Yes :lol:

Ti Malice
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Re: Chicago $$$ v Harvard

Postby Ti Malice » Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:25 pm

Big Dog wrote:
However, one big concern that hasn't yet been addressed is the impact of the residual benefits of having HLS on your resume, way down the road. I've heard many times that after your first job, your school doesn't matter too much. But I imagine this doesn't apply (as much) to HLS graduates.


Correct. H is the gift that keeps on giving. While the shine should revert to the mean over time, it does not. To me, H is with the $ delta.


Any actual data for this? Something showing that, on average and in terms of career outcomes, H is worth the $210K in debt, accumulated interest, and the gains unrealized due to being unable to invest some or all of that money?

I mean, I wish this were true, because if it were true for HLS, then it would be true for my school. But this really smells like nothing more than ignorant 0L prestige obsession.




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