GW Law vs. U of Minnesota with comparable scholarships

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vinnnyvincenzo
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Re: GW Law vs. U of Minnesota with comparable scholarships

Postby vinnnyvincenzo » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:01 am

Wissper wrote:I'm not asking for advice on whether or not to go to law school now. If you're not going to address my question why even post?

The question is an empirical one, not a subjective one. Given the available information about both schools' employment on graduation - which school gives better prospects?

I also never said I wanted to live in NYC.

Why are you even posting? The empirical evidence you speak of is readily available for you to examine yourself, why do you need other people to do that for you? Go to lawschooltransperency.com and do your own research.

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Nova
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Re: GW Law vs. U of Minnesota with comparable scholarships

Postby Nova » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:04 am

Seems like OP already knows the empirical data

OP, Im at UMN. Dont come here if you want to work on the east coast. That doesnt make sense.

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Re: GW Law vs. U of Minnesota with comparable scholarships

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:08 am

Wissper wrote:but to satisfy curiosity my GPA is 3.91.


Wissper wrote:Career goals: To get a well paying position in a firm preferably on the eastern seaboard from North Carolina and up. To this respect the location of D.C. on its face seems to have an advantage. But the employment stats have been fudged so much by their funding of student fellowships at graduation that its hard to read the rest of the numbers accurately (or to trust them entirely) - also only about 30% (I think) of their grads have reported salaries so that makes the numbers there suspect too.

Area of Study: uncertain - but leaning towards corporate/international business right now which both schools seem to excel at.


You need to retake. A few more points on the LSAT and you will probably get into a school where the chance of getting the kind of job you want is much greater than 50% (I went to one of those schools). Depending on how much, you may even get a substantial scholarship.

UMN and GW do not "excel" at corporate and international business if they do not place more than 50% of their graduates in jobs that are at the selectivity level. This is a decision that could literally be worth hundreds of thousands over the course of a 40 year career. Don't rush into things.

TheNextAmendment
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Re: GW Law vs. U of Minnesota with comparable scholarships

Postby TheNextAmendment » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:12 am

BigZuck wrote:The only insight I can provide is that both schools offer middling job prospects and whatever you find (if you even get a job) will probably pay about 50K starting out. Not sure if that qualifies as "well paying" to you or not but it almost certainly won't be enough to pay off your debt.


No offense because I think you're usually a quality poster, but aren't you going to UT bigzuck? I was under the impression GW places (at least last year) more students into biglaw (100+) than UT does. Why is your statement not representative by your own life choices? Or am I missing something? Unless you too agree your own chances at biglaw are minuscule and you justify your choice of UT because of low COA? Either way, please enlighten me.

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guano
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Re: GW Law vs. U of Minnesota with comparable scholarships

Postby guano » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:14 am

TheNextAmendment wrote:
BigZuck wrote:The only insight I can provide is that both schools offer middling job prospects and whatever you find (if you even get a job) will probably pay about 50K starting out. Not sure if that qualifies as "well paying" to you or not but it almost certainly won't be enough to pay off your debt.


No offense because I think you're usually a quality poster, but aren't you going to UT bigzuck? I was under the impression GW places (at least last year) more students into biglaw (100+) than UT does. Why is your statement not representative by your own life choices? Or am I missing something? Unless you too agree your own chances at biglaw are minuscule and you justify your choice of UT because of low COA? Either way, please enlighten me.

It doesn't.
GW places approximately 1/5, UT 1/3.
(I don't remember the percentages, but it's approximately 21% vs approximately 35% at UT)

GW might have a much bigger class size which might mean more in absolute numbers, but the percentage is more important

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Re: GW Law vs. U of Minnesota with comparable scholarships

Postby jbagelboy » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:18 am

FWIW, I came in here wanting to support OP and give an answer regarding his choices since both are good schools for the right people...

Sorry dude, but your scholarships are too low to justify these schools, and they do not align in any meaningful way with your goals. I think UMN becomes feasible after around $30-35K scholarship if and only if you want to work in the twin cities (which are not a bad place by any means). This is only because CoL is very low and you can get state residency.

GWU is a different story. DC is ludicrous, as is tuition. Im tempted to say you need $40K to full ride at GWU to stomach it. However, it does align more with your placement & geographic preference.

If you cant raise the scholarship by another $25K/year, dont even consider attending. Law school isnt some amazing opportunity you'd be losing out on. Its an expensive trade school that is only worthwhile under very specific conditions and opporunity costs. A JD can be a great degree to have, but only really from a school that gives you flexibility at reasonable cost. Dont fool yourself into thinking anything different or you will regret it for the rest of your life

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Re: GW Law vs. U of Minnesota with comparable scholarships

Postby cinephile » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:22 am

For the type of schools you're looking at, this isn't nearly enough money. 30k/year in scholarships or rich parents who can afford to throw away money, otherwise you're risking too much for a far too little chance of success.

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Re: GW Law vs. U of Minnesota with comparable scholarships

Postby jbagelboy » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:26 am

TheNextAmendment wrote:
BigZuck wrote:The only insight I can provide is that both schools offer middling job prospects and whatever you find (if you even get a job) will probably pay about 50K starting out. Not sure if that qualifies as "well paying" to you or not but it almost certainly won't be enough to pay off your debt.


No offense because I think you're usually a quality poster, but aren't you going to UT bigzuck? I was under the impression GW places (at least last year) more students into biglaw (100+) than UT does. Why is your statement not representative by your own life choices? Or am I missing something? Unless you too agree your own chances at biglaw are minuscule and you justify your choice of UT because of low COA? Either way, please enlighten me.


Not only is this statement false and misleading, but my understanding is that Zuck will be attending UT at significant discount, far less than OPs scenarios. If OP said I have full rides at these schools help me pick, I for one would not be chanting retake/dont go

TheNextAmendment
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Re: GW Law vs. U of Minnesota with comparable scholarships

Postby TheNextAmendment » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:32 am

jbagelboy wrote:
TheNextAmendment wrote:
BigZuck wrote:The only insight I can provide is that both schools offer middling job prospects and whatever you find (if you even get a job) will probably pay about 50K starting out. Not sure if that qualifies as "well paying" to you or not but it almost certainly won't be enough to pay off your debt.


No offense because I think you're usually a quality poster, but aren't you going to UT bigzuck? I was under the impression GW places (at least last year) more students into biglaw (100+) than UT does. Why is your statement not representative by your own life choices? Or am I missing something? Unless you too agree your own chances at biglaw are minuscule and you justify your choice of UT because of low COA? Either way, please enlighten me.


Not only is this statement false and misleading, but my understanding is that Zuck will be attending UT at significant discount, far less than OPs scenarios. If OP said I have full rides at these schools help me pick, I for one would not be chanting retake/dont go


New LST scorereports say GW placed 27.3% of its class into 100+ and UT placed 26.8% of its class into 100+. Is this an error?

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Re: GW Law vs. U of Minnesota with comparable scholarships

Postby BigZuck » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:33 am

TheNextAmendment wrote:
BigZuck wrote:The only insight I can provide is that both schools offer middling job prospects and whatever you find (if you even get a job) will probably pay about 50K starting out. Not sure if that qualifies as "well paying" to you or not but it almost certainly won't be enough to pay off your debt.


No offense because I think you're usually a quality poster, but aren't you going to UT bigzuck? I was under the impression GW places (at least last year) more students into biglaw (100+) than UT does. Why is your statement not representative by your own life choices? Or am I missing something? Unless you too agree your own chances at biglaw are minuscule and you justify your choice of UT because of low COA? Either way, please enlighten me.


Not sure what my choice has to do with anything but I chose UT for personal reasons (primarily my SO's job prospects and my love of Austin) and I only felt comfortable doing so when my debt level with interest and COL and everything factored in would be around 70K. That made me feel more comfortable than taking 90K at Duke or Cornell because then my debt level would have been anywhere between 50-100K more depending on my SO's job situation which would have almost certainly been a demotion (in a region of the country she didn't want to live in, nonetheless). I'm comfortable with a 70K debt load at UT because while I would like big law, I would be comfortable paying it off on a low salary in the likely event that I strike out. I could have taken the much greater shot at big law that Duke offered but I'm old and debt sucks and I didn't feel like paying tens of thousands more to assure myself of a job I might end up hating and living in a place for three years that might disadvantage my SO's job prospects (and, in turn, potentially cause resentment toward me).

Is that ok with you?

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Re: GW Law vs. U of Minnesota with comparable scholarships

Postby NYstate » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:35 am

Wissper wrote:I'm not asking for advice on whether or not to go to law school now. If you're not going to address my question why even post?

The question is an empirical one, not a subjective one. Given the available information about both schools' employment on graduation - which school gives better prospects?

I also never said I wanted to live in NYC.


You want advice but won't give info. You should read about trap schools in Campos old blog. GwU is the classic example if a trap school.

If you don't care about biglaw or you don't mind being on PAYE and repaying loans for 20 years, go to GWU.

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Re: GW Law vs. U of Minnesota with comparable scholarships

Postby TheNextAmendment » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:37 am

BigZuck wrote:
TheNextAmendment wrote:
BigZuck wrote:The only insight I can provide is that both schools offer middling job prospects and whatever you find (if you even get a job) will probably pay about 50K starting out. Not sure if that qualifies as "well paying" to you or not but it almost certainly won't be enough to pay off your debt.


No offense because I think you're usually a quality poster, but aren't you going to UT bigzuck? I was under the impression GW places (at least last year) more students into biglaw (100+) than UT does. Why is your statement not representative by your own life choices? Or am I missing something? Unless you too agree your own chances at biglaw are minuscule and you justify your choice of UT because of low COA? Either way, please enlighten me.


Not sure what my choice has to do with anything but I chose UT for personal reasons (primarily my SO's job prospects and my love of Austin) and I only felt comfortable doing so when my debt level with interest and COL and everything factored in would be around 70K. That made me feel more comfortable than taking 90K at Duke or Cornell because then my debt level would have been anywhere between 50-100K more depending on my SO's job situation which would have almost certainly been a demotion (in a region of the country she didn't want to live in, nonetheless). I'm comfortable with a 70K debt load at UT because while I would like big law, I would be comfortable paying it off on a low salary in the likely event that I strike out. I could have taken the much greater shot at big law that Duke offered but I'm old and debt sucks and I didn't feel like paying tens of thousands more to assure myself of a job I might end up hating and living in a place for three years that might disadvantage my SO's job prospects (and, in turn, potentially cause resentment toward me).

Is that ok with you?


Didn't think you'd take it so personally. I'm sorry if I offended you. Look again at what I wrote. So your response must be you feel comfortable taking that risk with a lower COA. Okay. Just curious.

Edit- for the record I wasn't trying to be rude or call you out. My sarcasm came across the wrong way via text I suppose. After reading it again- yeah it deff came across the wrong way. Lol my bad.
Last edited by TheNextAmendment on Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

BigZuck
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Re: GW Law vs. U of Minnesota with comparable scholarships

Postby BigZuck » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:39 am

TheNextAmendment wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
TheNextAmendment wrote:
BigZuck wrote:The only insight I can provide is that both schools offer middling job prospects and whatever you find (if you even get a job) will probably pay about 50K starting out. Not sure if that qualifies as "well paying" to you or not but it almost certainly won't be enough to pay off your debt.


No offense because I think you're usually a quality poster, but aren't you going to UT bigzuck? I was under the impression GW places (at least last year) more students into biglaw (100+) than UT does. Why is your statement not representative by your own life choices? Or am I missing something? Unless you too agree your own chances at biglaw are minuscule and you justify your choice of UT because of low COA? Either way, please enlighten me.


Not only is this statement false and misleading, but my understanding is that Zuck will be attending UT at significant discount, far less than OPs scenarios. If OP said I have full rides at these schools help me pick, I for one would not be chanting retake/dont go


New LST scorereports say GW placed 27.3% of its class into 100+ and UT placed 26.8% of its class into 100+. Is this an error?


Dat federal clerkship rate. Also some state clerkships in Texas are very prestigious and pretty much just as good but there's no way to account for that.

UT has nothing to do with this btw.

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Re: GW Law vs. U of Minnesota with comparable scholarships

Postby BigZuck » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:46 am

TheNextAmendment wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
TheNextAmendment wrote:
BigZuck wrote:The only insight I can provide is that both schools offer middling job prospects and whatever you find (if you even get a job) will probably pay about 50K starting out. Not sure if that qualifies as "well paying" to you or not but it almost certainly won't be enough to pay off your debt.


No offense because I think you're usually a quality poster, but aren't you going to UT bigzuck? I was under the impression GW places (at least last year) more students into biglaw (100+) than UT does. Why is your statement not representative by your own life choices? Or am I missing something? Unless you too agree your own chances at biglaw are minuscule and you justify your choice of UT because of low COA? Either way, please enlighten me.


Not sure what my choice has to do with anything but I chose UT for personal reasons (primarily my SO's job prospects and my love of Austin) and I only felt comfortable doing so when my debt level with interest and COL and everything factored in would be around 70K. That made me feel more comfortable than taking 90K at Duke or Cornell because then my debt level would have been anywhere between 50-100K more depending on my SO's job situation which would have almost certainly been a demotion (in a region of the country she didn't want to live in, nonetheless). I'm comfortable with a 70K debt load at UT because while I would like big law, I would be comfortable paying it off on a low salary in the likely event that I strike out. I could have taken the much greater shot at big law that Duke offered but I'm old and debt sucks and I didn't feel like paying tens of thousands more to assure myself of a job I might end up hating and living in a place for three years that might disadvantage my SO's job prospects (and, in turn, potentially cause resentment toward me).

Is that ok with you?


Didn't think you'd take it so personally. I'm sorry if I offended you. Look again at what I wrote. So your response must be you feel comfortable taking that risk with a lower COA. Okay. Just curious.


I'm not offended (kinda like how you're not sorry). Just want to make sure we are good before derailing this thread any more.

I'm lost, what risk am I taking? Missing out on big law? I mean, I guess. But to me, the freedom to take whatever job I want is better than being locked into having to take only one career path.

Law school is always somewhat of a risk because some percentage of the class is not getting a favorable outcome (except for maybe HYS I guess). But I don't really think going to any top 30ish school and ending up with 60-70K in debt is really that bad of a decision. As jbagelboy said, if the OP had a full ride we would have told them to knock themselves out.

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Re: GW Law vs. U of Minnesota with comparable scholarships

Postby TheNextAmendment » Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:01 pm

 
Dat federal clerkship rate. Also some state clerkships in Texas are very prestigious and pretty much just as good but there's no way to account for that.

UT has nothing to do with this btw.[/quote]

Okay so those numbers are not incorrect. Okay so GW DOES place more students into biglaw and only 3.2% less into clerkships in general (both TX and DC state clerkships are quite prestigious I think) despite having a much bigger class size.

It's important we clear up some misconceptions and rumors that some TLSers just willingly believe and spew out. Genuinely believing and preaching things we merely hear from others leads to terrible things.

Additionally, although OP is not debating about UT, he is considering GW so I think this discussion was worthwhile. OP, GW is expensive. 40% end up underemployed or school employed, 40% get good paying jobs, and 20% do okay. If you don't like that risk don't go. But do your own research because, as you see, TLSers spew out incorrect information from time to time.

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Re: GW Law vs. U of Minnesota with comparable scholarships

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:13 pm

TheNextAmendment wrote:
BigZuck wrote:The only insight I can provide is that both schools offer middling job prospects and whatever you find (if you even get a job) will probably pay about 50K starting out. Not sure if that qualifies as "well paying" to you or not but it almost certainly won't be enough to pay off your debt.


No offense because I think you're usually a quality poster, but aren't you going to UT bigzuck? I was under the impression GW places (at least last year) more students into biglaw (100+) than UT does. Why is your statement not representative by your own life choices? Or am I missing something? Unless you too agree your own chances at biglaw are minuscule and you justify your choice of UT because of low COA? Either way, please enlighten me.


Oh snap, I took my eyes off this thread for half a second and it turned into a poster trying to layeth the smackdown?

Tip number one: You shouldn't turn your acceptances/scholarships into a pissing contest, because it's douchey, arrogant and totally against the "helpful community" that TLS is supposed to be.

Tip number two: If you do decide to be douchey, know that these forums are chock-full of T14-bound posters, many with significant scholarships, who have objectively better options in the fall than you. Only YHS/Hamilton/Ruby could really be douchey without immediate reprisal from someone "further up the food chain", so to speak, so doing so without a T14 acceptance in hand is douchey AND naive. And by the way, if you noticed, the YHS/Hamilton/Rubys don't rub in everyone else's face even though they would have standing to do so.

Tip number three: If you then decide to be douchey AND naive, you should be sure the target of your jeering is going to a worse option. But, as has been pointed out, he's not, and Texas does better in Biglaw than either GW or UMN.

By the way, Zuck has a full ride to UT.
Last edited by Monochromatic Oeuvre on Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Nova
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Re: GW Law vs. U of Minnesota with comparable scholarships

Postby Nova » Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:15 pm

not the op bro bro

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: GW Law vs. U of Minnesota with comparable scholarships

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:17 pm

My mistake, edited. NextAmendment may not be going to a worse school than Zuck. Still, though, my post stands as a general guideline.

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Re: GW Law vs. U of Minnesota with comparable scholarships

Postby BigZuck » Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:19 pm

TheNextAmendment wrote: 
Dat federal clerkship rate. Also some state clerkships in Texas are very prestigious and pretty much just as good but there's no way to account for that.

UT has nothing to do with this btw.


Okay so those numbers are not incorrect. Okay so GW DOES place more students into biglaw and only 3.2% less into clerkships in general (both TX and DC state clerkships are quite prestigious I think) despite having a much bigger class size.

It's important we clear up some misconceptions and rumors that some TLSers just willingly believe and spew out. Genuinely believing and preaching things we merely hear from others leads to terrible things.

Additionally, although OP is not debating about UT, he is considering GW so I think this discussion was worthwhile. OP, GW is expensive. 40% end up underemployed or school employed, 40% get good paying jobs, and 20% do okay. If you don't like that risk don't go. But do your own research because, as you see, TLSers spew out incorrect information from time to time.[/quote]

DC is not a state. Do they have state clerkships? That's an honest question, I have no idea.

I'm still not seeing what UT has to do with anything here. UT (like Vandy, USC, and UCLA) is a cut above when it comes to placement. Compared to GWU, UT doesn't do the employment gaming to nearly the same extent, big law+clerkship placement is always higher, and if the rumors are true, one who is non-IP has a much better shot at big law out of UT. There's might also be the impossible to quantify "Texas midlaw" that gets UT grads and fans so hard. I'm far from a UT cheerleader but these schools are not peers. And once again, the OP is not considering UT (or a peer of UT) so none of this matters.

As far as not paying too much for any school outside of the T14 (I would say T13) of course that's credited.

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Re: GW Law vs. U of Minnesota with comparable scholarships

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:43 pm

BigZuck wrote:DC is not a state. Do they have state clerkships? That's an honest question, I have no idea.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_o ... of_Appeals

Not joking, OP needs to retake.

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Re: GW Law vs. U of Minnesota with comparable scholarships

Postby TheNextAmendment » Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:57 pm

BigZuck wrote:
TheNextAmendment wrote: 
Dat federal clerkship rate. Also some state clerkships in Texas are very prestigious and pretty much just as good but there's no way to account for that.

UT has nothing to do with this btw.


Okay so those numbers are not incorrect. Okay so GW DOES place more students into biglaw and only 3.2% less into clerkships in general (both TX and DC state clerkships are quite prestigious I think) despite having a much bigger class size.

It's important we clear up some misconceptions and rumors that some TLSers just willingly believe and spew out. Genuinely believing and preaching things we merely hear from others leads to terrible things.

Additionally, although OP is not debating about UT, he is considering GW so I think this discussion was worthwhile. OP, GW is expensive. 40% end up underemployed or school employed, 40% get good paying jobs, and 20% do okay. If you don't like that risk don't go. But do your own research because, as you see, TLSers spew out incorrect information from time to time.


DC is not a state. Do they have state clerkships? That's an honest question, I have no idea.

I'm still not seeing what UT has to do with anything here. UT (like Vandy, USC, and UCLA) is a cut above when it comes to placement. Compared to GWU, UT doesn't do the employment gaming to nearly the same extent, big law+clerkship placement is always higher, and if the rumors are true, one who is non-IP has a much better shot at big law out of UT. There's might also be the impossible to quantify "Texas midlaw" that gets UT grads and fans so hard. I'm far from a UT cheerleader but these schools are not peers. And once again, the OP is not considering UT (or a peer of UT) so none of this matters.

As far as not paying too much for any school outside of the T14 (I would say T13) of course that's credited.[/quote]
Agreed overall. Yes DC does have state clerkships. My main point in everything was that you said GW and UMM have horrendous employment numbers when GW actually places better than UT. When people continued to say GW didn't place more in biglaw the topic spiraled out of control. Thanks for killing some of my retail hours. Gl op Gl zuck

Edit- not better, but more into biglaw despite a much bigger class and close enough in clerkships.

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Re: GW Law vs. U of Minnesota with comparable scholarships

Postby BigZuck » Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:07 pm

Middling=horrendous?

What is with all the Ad Homing? If you want to keep it up I really don't mind but it's going to have to be a different thread. Maybe I will start one in the lounge.

To the point: OP, retake.




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