Location v. Ranking

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
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romothesavior
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Re: Location v. Ranking

Postby romothesavior » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:01 pm

Suits99 wrote:You guys seem to not get it, or maybe I don't and I won't be offended if you tell me so. I am under the impression that any of the top 100 laws schools that this website lists are worth going to. I obviously understand that certain law schools give you a better shot at a good job, but it seems that you are arguing that the bottom 50 law schools in the top 100 are terrible and there is no chance you can practice law if you go to them.

It's good to see that you've got an open-mind and are seeking out this information. You're leagues ahead of many of the stubborn folks who post here for the first time, so kudos for that.

That said, you have a lot to learn before you make this expensive, time-consuming investment that is law school and a career in law. Please, please do your homework before you take the plunge. Most of the law schools in the country aren't worth going to, and most of the law schools in the top 100 aren't good ideas without a full ride or close to it. The job market is shitty right now, and unless you go to a truly elite school, you're looking at 30-50k to start, if you can find work at all.

Additionally, your reliance on the rankings (top 50, 50-100, outside the top 100, etc.) is misplaced. The rankings are virtually worthless. There are schools in the 100+ range I'd take over schools in the top 50, and there is mostly no difference between the lower T50 schools and the schools in the 50-100 range. Start focusing on job placement data.

But if you want to talk about the Tier 2 (50-100) schools, in general, we're talking about schools that place 50-60% of their graduates into full-time, permanent, JD-required jobs (aka real lawyers) and place less than 5% into firms of 100+ (aka firms that pay well). You'd be a fool to throw down your money for that kind of investment.

Suits99 wrote:How could these schools still exist if everyone that goes to them graduates and then does nothing related to law?

No one is saying that. Many of these graduates go on to successful and rewarding careers. But in today's economy, most don't, and a huge percentage of the people graduating from these schools would most certainly avoid law school like the plague if they had a do-over.

How do these schools still exist, or even thrive? Because of the naive attitude that you're displaying here. Most people in this country are clueless about what the legal industry looks like, how legal hiring works, how much it costs, etc. They're suckers getting sucked in by lies. But you don't have to be one of them. You've got a community of very knowledgeable and very helpful people right here, and a wealth of job data and information at your disposal. Use it.

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jselson
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Re: Location v. Ranking

Postby jselson » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:05 pm

Suits99 wrote:You guys seem to not get it, or maybe I don't and I won't be offended if you tell me so. I am under the impression that any of the top 100 laws schools that this website lists are worth going to. I obviously understand that certain law schools give you a better shot at a good job, but it seems that you are arguing that the bottom 50 law schools in the top 100 are terrible and there is no chance you can practice law if you go to them. How could these schools still exist if everyone that goes to them graduates and then does nothing related to law? For example, Maine Law is ranked 100th in the country and is the only law school in Maine, yet you are telling me that everyone that goes to Maine Law, or the majority of students, will not be able to find a job in Maine, only those who attended T-1 schools can get a job there?

And in terms of being rich or not rich, I am not saying I can just drop 200k on anything I want such as an expensive sports car, I am saying that I am well off enough that I am willing to pay to go to the best law school possible because being a lawyer is a huge goal of mine. I would not however drop 200k on a legal education that I did not think would get me a job, and thus this is why I am posting in the forums to find out what schools are worth going to and what schools are not-and it seems that everyone thinks anything less than a top 30 school is a waste.


It's clear from this post that you should've studied more for the reading comprehension portion of LSAT. No one in the thread has said anything like what you describe. For the intellectual benefit alone, you should retake.

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Nova
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Re: Location v. Ranking

Postby Nova » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:09 pm

OP needs to retake in october and spend more time on TLS

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Location v. Ranking

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:13 pm

FWIW, the fact that OP's family could pay for law school doesn't necessarily mean he's rich. For example, my family could pay for any law school at sticker (fortunately, they won't have to). I'm certainly upper-middle class, but not rich. I was told that my family would pay for undergrad (which could have been up to $200k), and afterwards they would "try" to help as much as they could, but no promises. I'm very lucky to live in a state with excellent public schools, and I wound up graduating in five semesters, so school only cost $50k, leaving $150k left over to help pay for law school. In addition, my father turned old enough to receive Social Security payments, which would have helped out tremendously paying for school without making us rich (as it turns out, they weren't necessary).

Point being, careful with assuming personal characteristics that go past basic logical connection (e.g. if OP won't have debt, COA is less of a factor).

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Suits99
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Re: Location v. Ranking

Postby Suits99 » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:18 pm

The above post was perfect and answered all my questions thanks NickB!

Going for a 165+ and hoping that will get me into BC.

timbs4339
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Re: Location v. Ranking

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:22 pm

OP: Unless your parents are "burn that money in their backyard, laugh, and dance in the ashes" rich, then don't waste their money or your time on a school like Suffolk or Northeastern. Whoever is telling you just because a school is "T1" means it is a good option is lying or stupid.

That you assume something is relatively better than something else it is an objectively good decision raises major red flags. I'd rather be shot in the foot than the lungs, heart, or head, but that doesn't mean any of those are objectively "good" choices. Retake or don't go.

NYstate
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Re: Location v. Ranking

Postby NYstate » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:26 pm

Suits99 wrote:You guys seem to not get it, or maybe I don't and I won't be offended if you tell me so. I am under the impression that any of the top 100 laws schools that this website lists are worth going to. I obviously understand that certain law schools give you a better shot at a good job, but it seems that you are arguing that the bottom 50 law schools in the top 100 are terrible and there is no chance you can practice law if you go to them. How could these schools still exist if everyone that goes to them graduates and then does nothing related to law? For example, Maine Law is ranked 100th in the country and is the only law school in Maine, yet you are telling me that everyone that goes to Maine Law, or the majority of students, will not be able to find a job in Maine, only those who attended T-1 schools can get a job there?

And in terms of being rich or not rich, I am not saying I can just drop 200k on anything I want such as an expensive sports car, I am saying that I am well off enough that I am willing to pay to go to the best law school possible because being a lawyer is a huge goal of mine. I would not however drop 200k on a legal education that I did not think would get me a job, and thus this is why I am posting in the forums to find out what schools are worth going to and what schools are not-and it seems that everyone thinks anything less than a top 30 school is a waste.



The reason these schools are still open is because they lied for decades about employment statistics. The reality of the legal job market is just beginning to be understood. Websites like inside the law school scam, Law school transparency and others are getting the message out. It is going to take a long time for the reality of hiring to permeate our culture.

I'm sure that many students attending these lower ranked schools are using the same logic as you: how could they charge so much if it isn't worth it? Therefor, it must be worth it.
This is where you have to understand the "scam" aspects of law school. Charging high tuition and misrepresenting employment.

I feel that even TLS is too optimistic about jobs, even biglaw jobs. But I am in the minority in that feeling. The job market is terrible. At least half won't ever practice law. The best thing students can do is minimize their risk by cutting costs through scholarships and by going to schools with the best placement into the only jobs that will allow loan repayment or forgiveness.

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romothesavior
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Re: Location v. Ranking

Postby romothesavior » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:31 pm

Just about anyone whose family can afford to drop 200k on school is very rich. Not saying there is anything at all wrong with that, and I don't have any ill-will towards anyone who is fortunate enough to be in that situation, but it does leave a bad taste in people's mouths to hear "I'm not rich but my family was willing to give me $200,000 for my education. I'm middle class... just like you!"

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jbagelboy
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Re: Location v. Ranking

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:34 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote: I'm certainly upper-middle class, but not rich. I was told that my family would pay for undergrad (which could have been up to $200k), and afterwards they would "try" to help as much as they could, but no promises.


Yea I faced this same debate at some point TLS. I feel you, but at the same time, "upper middle class" = rich for many people on this site. I get the sense that most of the people who come on to Choosing a LS come from less affluent backgrounds, because wealthy people don't concern themselves with "scholarships", the "handouts of the masses", and just go to the highest ranked law school. We may be rarer cases of the 'upper middle class' active tls'er -- I go on TLS since I'm cooped up in my office at work from 8 to past 6 and bored to shit, and you are evidently intelligent/precocious but somewhat obsessive and not fully socialized -- but most of my wealthy friends are plastered in Ibiza, finding themselves in Nepal or driving around newport coast in their carreras hitting WeHo every night. I only get to play after 6:30PMish. Fuck work life.

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote: I'm very lucky to live in a state with excellent public schools, and I wound up graduating in five semesters,


Ah. this explains a lot. You should have stayed longer in school bro! college is awesome. Maybe you'd have had more time for repose and enjoying yourself. I wouldn't have given up my junior and senior yr of college for anything... I feel very sorry for you. Also, you must be like 20?

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jbagelboy
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Re: Location v. Ranking

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:34 pm

romothesavior wrote:Just about anyone whose family can afford to drop 200k on school is very rich. Not saying there is anything at all wrong with that, and I don't have any ill-will towards anyone who is fortunate enough to be in that situation, but it does leave a bad taste in people's mouths to hear "I'm not rich but my family was willing to give me $200,000 for my education. I'm middle class... just like you!"


yea, exactly

timbs4339
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Re: Location v. Ranking

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:34 pm

romothesavior wrote:Just about anyone whose family can afford to drop 200k on school is very rich. Not saying there is anything at all wrong with that, and I don't have any ill-will towards anyone who is fortunate enough to be in that situation, but it does leave a bad taste in people's mouths to hear "I'm not rich but my family was willing to give me $200,000 for my education. I'm middle class... just like you!"


TBF, plenty of middle-class parents will refinance their homes, cosign private loans they can't help pay back, or dip into their retirement savings to finance a kid's education. With all the boomer-bashing on this site people forget that boomers often make terrible decisions because they honestly believe education is the answer to life's prayers.

In those situations the onus is on the applicant to firmly deny parental assistance when they know the parents are sacrificing retirement income or a safety net.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Location v. Ranking

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:38 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Just about anyone whose family can afford to drop 200k on school is very rich. Not saying there is anything at all wrong with that, and I don't have any ill-will towards anyone who is fortunate enough to be in that situation, but it does leave a bad taste in people's mouths to hear "I'm not rich but my family was willing to give me $200,000 for my education. I'm middle class... just like you!"


TBF, plenty of middle-class parents will refinance their homes, cosign private loans they can't help pay back, or dip into their retirement savings to finance a kid's education. With all the boomer-bashing on this site people forget that boomers often make terrible decisions because they honestly believe education is the answer to life's prayers.

In those situations the onus is one the applicant to firmly deny parental assistance when they know the parents are sacrificing retirement income or a safety net.


and then there are parents like mine, who maybe could afford to help with law school, but won't because they don't feel like its their responsibility, and i'm not about to ask them for it.

edit: so perhaps "generously endowed" is a better phrase to describe than "rich"

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CaptainLeela
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Re: Location v. Ranking

Postby CaptainLeela » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:40 pm

romothesavior wrote:Just about anyone whose family can afford to drop 200k on school is very rich. Not saying there is anything at all wrong with that, and I don't have any ill-will towards anyone who is fortunate enough to be in that situation, but it does leave a bad taste in people's mouths to hear "I'm not rich but my family was willing to give me $200,000 for my education. I'm middle class... just like you!"

I don't get this either. I think people are saying that the ability to drop 200k on law school is different than owning a Fijian island or buying you a Ferrari for your 16th birthday, which is what most people perceive as being truly "rich." Of course it is. But in a country where the poverty line for a family of 4 is $23,550, if you can pay sticker (and my family CAN, so I'm saying this from that position) you're rich. To say otherwise just shows that you're either out of touch or disingenous.

timbs4339
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Re: Location v. Ranking

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:40 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Just about anyone whose family can afford to drop 200k on school is very rich. Not saying there is anything at all wrong with that, and I don't have any ill-will towards anyone who is fortunate enough to be in that situation, but it does leave a bad taste in people's mouths to hear "I'm not rich but my family was willing to give me $200,000 for my education. I'm middle class... just like you!"


TBF, plenty of middle-class parents will refinance their homes, cosign private loans they can't help pay back, or dip into their retirement savings to finance a kid's education. With all the boomer-bashing on this site people forget that boomers often make terrible decisions because they honestly believe education is the answer to life's prayers.

In those situations the onus is one the applicant to firmly deny parental assistance when they know the parents are sacrificing retirement income or a safety net.


and then there are parents like mine, who maybe could afford to help with law school, but won't because they don't feel like its their responsibility, and i'm not about to ask them for it.

edit: so perhaps "generously endowed" is a better phrase to describe than "rich"


I use the "Grand Tour" test- if the family is wealthy enough to spend 70K per year touring the world for three years and not see a drop in their standard of living, then I'd feel comfortable accepting the money because it's conspicuous consumption. Otherwise it's an investment decision and should be analyzed like any other investment.

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untar614
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Re: Location v. Ranking

Postby untar614 » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:43 pm

CaptainLeela wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Just about anyone whose family can afford to drop 200k on school is very rich. Not saying there is anything at all wrong with that, and I don't have any ill-will towards anyone who is fortunate enough to be in that situation, but it does leave a bad taste in people's mouths to hear "I'm not rich but my family was willing to give me $200,000 for my education. I'm middle class... just like you!"

I don't get this either. I think people are saying that the ability to drop 200k on law school is different than owning a Fijian island or buying you a Ferrari for your 16th birthday, which is what most people perceive as being truly "rich." Of course it is. But in a country where the poverty line for a family of 4 is $23,550, if you can pay sticker (and my family CAN, so I'm saying this from that position) you're rich. To say otherwise just shows that you're either out of touch or disingenous.

Doesn't a Ferrari cost about the same as law school at sticker?

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jbagelboy
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Re: Location v. Ranking

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:44 pm

untar614 wrote:
CaptainLeela wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Just about anyone whose family can afford to drop 200k on school is very rich. Not saying there is anything at all wrong with that, and I don't have any ill-will towards anyone who is fortunate enough to be in that situation, but it does leave a bad taste in people's mouths to hear "I'm not rich but my family was willing to give me $200,000 for my education. I'm middle class... just like you!"

I don't get this either. I think people are saying that the ability to drop 200k on law school is different than owning a Fijian island or buying you a Ferrari for your 16th birthday, which is what most people perceive as being truly "rich." Of course it is. But in a country where the poverty line for a family of 4 is $23,550, if you can pay sticker (and my family CAN, so I'm saying this from that position) you're rich. To say otherwise just shows that you're either out of touch or disingenous.

Doesn't a Ferrari cost about the same as law school at sticker?


depends on the model; they range up to 400Kish

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romothesavior
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Re: Location v. Ranking

Postby romothesavior » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:45 pm

timbs4339 wrote:In those situations the onus is one the applicant to firmly deny parental assistance when they know the parents are sacrificing retirement income or a safety net.

Oh absolutely.

And I'm sorry, I didn't want to sidetrack this thread into a "Who is rich and who isn't?" debate. I just think its important for those of you in the top 2-3% of Americans to simply have a modicum of self-awareness to avoid coming off like you're disconnected from reality. It's good to be a chill and sociable bro so that people don't think you're pretentious, but this "I'm one of you... middle class, baby!" attitude is one that a lot of people have is off-putting.

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Suits99
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Re: Location v. Ranking

Postby Suits99 » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:46 pm

I didn't sign up for TLS to have a debate on whether or not I am rich, lets just say I am. My question was answered above that unless you go to a T-14 you should go to the top school in your region-which then meant that Northeastern is a waste and I should do everything I can to get into BC/BU. As a result, I am going to continue studying hard all summer for the LSAT (I am taking it in October) with the hope that my score is high enough to get into these two schools. If not, I will take over my dads company buy an island on Fiji as recommended above and you can all come for some drinks.

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ManoftheHour
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Re: Location v. Ranking

Postby ManoftheHour » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:50 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
and then there are parents like mine, who maybe could afford to help with law school, but won't because they don't feel like its their responsibility, and i'm not about to ask them for it.

edit: so perhaps "generously endowed" is a better phrase to describe than "rich"


It's definitely not their responsibility to shell out for our education. I'm just happy that mine are willing to help me out with COL. With that said, it's good to know that if you somehow epically fucked up, you wouldn't be royally screwed the rest of your life though. Granted, I would never want to put my parents in the situation in which I ask for their help ("Mom, can I have 200k?) because I'm drowning in debt and have no job, but it's a world of difference between that as a last resort and not having that option at all. To be honest, I don't think I'd ever take the plunge if I didn't have that as a backup in the back of my mind.
Last edited by ManoftheHour on Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ManoftheHour
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Re: Location v. Ranking

Postby ManoftheHour » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:51 pm

Suits99 wrote:I didn't sign up for TLS to have a debate on whether or not I am rich, lets just say I am. My question was answered above that unless you go to a T-14 you should go to the top school in your region-which then meant that Northeastern is a waste and I should do everything I can to get into BC/BU. As a result, I am going to continue studying hard all summer for the LSAT (I am taking it in October) with the hope that my score is high enough to get into these two schools. If not, I will take over my dads company buy an island on Fiji as recommended above and you can all come for some drinks.


TITCR. Good luck, OP.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Location v. Ranking

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:52 pm

Suits99 wrote:I didn't sign up for TLS to have a debate on whether or not I am rich, lets just say I am. My question was answered above that unless you go to a T-14 you should go to the top school in your region-which then meant that Northeastern is a waste and I should do everything I can to get into BC/BU. As a result, I am going to continue studying hard all summer for the LSAT (I am taking it in October) with the hope that my score is high enough to get into these two schools. If not, I will take over my dads company buy an island on Fiji as recommended above and you can all come for some drinks.

:lol: good luck!

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romothesavior
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Re: Location v. Ranking

Postby romothesavior » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:58 pm

Great decision OP.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Location v. Ranking

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:04 pm

Suits99 wrote:I didn't sign up for TLS to have a debate on whether or not I am rich, lets just say I am. My question was answered above that unless you go to a T-14 you should go to the top school in your region-which then meant that Northeastern is a waste and I should do everything I can to get into BC/BU. As a result, I am going to continue studying hard all summer for the LSAT (I am taking it in October) with the hope that my score is high enough to get into these two schools. If not, I will take over my dads company buy an island on Fiji as recommended above and you can all come for some drinks.


+1 congrats

sorry if we were harsh, that's how it is

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jbagelboy
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Re: Location v. Ranking

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:06 pm

ManoftheHour wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
and then there are parents like mine, who maybe could afford to help with law school, but won't because they don't feel like its their responsibility, and i'm not about to ask them for it.

edit: so perhaps "generously endowed" is a better phrase to describe than "rich"


It's definitely not their responsibility to shell out for our education. I'm just happy that mine are willing to help me out with COL. With that said, it's good to know that if you somehow epically fucked up, you wouldn't be royally screwed the rest of your life though. Granted, I would never want to put my parents in the situation in which I ask for their help ("Mom, can I have 200k?) because I'm drowning in debt and have no job, but it's a world of difference between that as a last resort and not having that option at all. To be honest, I don't think I'd ever take the plunge if I didn't have that as a backup in the back of my mind.


Yea I agree, ultimately the safety net is nice and I often base my TLS recommendations on how much of a safety net that person has (i.e., how debtpwned someone is if they miss a lucrative career based on family resources) .. at the same time, I don't want that assumption to let me slip up. I play best back against the wall.

BigZuck
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Re: Location v. Ranking

Postby BigZuck » Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:25 pm

Only took two pages and one derailment.

Nice job hivemind.




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