Penn vs UVA

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UVA or UPenn

UVA (45/year)
34
36%
UPenn (30/year)
61
64%
 
Total votes: 95

bruin91
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Re: Penn vs UVA

Postby bruin91 » Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:47 pm

Br3v wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:but if you can get a private education with stronger numbers for free over a public one, do it.


Both good choices, but if you do decide Penn definitely don't do so for the above asinine reason.


+1

BigZuck
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Re: Penn vs UVA

Postby BigZuck » Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:07 pm

Br3v wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:but if you can get a private education with stronger numbers for free over a public one, do it.


Both good choices, but if you do decide Penn definitely don't do so for the above asinine reason.


I don't think it's asinine.

I really don't know much about UVA and Penn specifically because I'm not smart/good looking enough to get in to either. But when I was looking at other schools the private schools were generally smaller (no clue if that's the case here) and seemed to have more support/resources. Maybe it's not a great blanket statement to say but I think there is some wisdom in there.

*disclaimer- went to a large public school for college, grad school, and now law school so I'm not hating on public schools at all

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jbagelboy
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Re: Penn vs UVA

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:25 pm

BigZuck wrote:
Br3v wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:but if you can get a private education with stronger numbers for free over a public one, do it.


Both good choices, but if you do decide Penn definitely don't do so for the above asinine reason.


I don't think it's asinine.

I really don't know much about UVA and Penn specifically because I'm not smart/good looking enough to get in to either. But when I was looking at other schools the private schools were generally smaller (no clue if that's the case here) and seemed to have more support/resources. Maybe it's not a great blanket statement to say but I think there is some wisdom in there.

*disclaimer- went to a large public school for college, grad school, and now law school so I'm not hating on public schools at all


for the record, I'm not standing 100% behind this statement in every case but there is some truth to it as Zuck noted. It might come off the wrong way, but I've always seen the most valuable part of public university systems as being 1) service to the state and most importantly 2) reduced cost. I would attend UCLA over USC both at full cost. However, I would go to USC over UCLA if costs were equal, because the USC education is valued at double the UCLA one. Penn and UVA are peer schools, just like USC/UCLA. However, part of what makes UVA such an attractive option is its reduced cost. ATL, for example, ranks schools according to placement ability and cost. UVA does incredibly well in part due to this factor - better than CLS and NYU despite much lower firm numbers. For a VA resident, UVA is a better option than anything outside HYS (IMO). For OP, who has never been to virginia and cost wise draws far less perceivable benefit from attending UVA, this is null. http://abovethelaw.com/careers/law-school-rankings/
Lastly, OP does not want to work in DC/VA.

I'll admit to a prejudice when it comes to the connections and support offered by private schools. I'm not saying UVA/Cal/Michigan aren't amazing law schools. I just think they should offer a reduced cost to their residents, which makes them superior alternatives, given that is their stated mission.

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NoodleyOne
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Re: Penn vs UVA

Postby NoodleyOne » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:06 pm

Seriously, that's incredibly fucking retarded. UVA (or Michigan or Berk) are no different than their private peers. Any distinction based on public v. private for law school is fucking stupid.

Mal Reynolds
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Re: Penn vs UVA

Postby Mal Reynolds » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:10 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
Br3v wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:but if you can get a private education with stronger numbers for free over a public one, do it.


Both good choices, but if you do decide Penn definitely don't do so for the above asinine reason.


I don't think it's asinine.

I really don't know much about UVA and Penn specifically because I'm not smart/good looking enough to get in to either. But when I was looking at other schools the private schools were generally smaller (no clue if that's the case here) and seemed to have more support/resources. Maybe it's not a great blanket statement to say but I think there is some wisdom in there.

*disclaimer- went to a large public school for college, grad school, and now law school so I'm not hating on public schools at all


for the record, I'm not standing 100% behind this statement in every case but there is some truth to it as Zuck noted. It might come off the wrong way, but I've always seen the most valuable part of public university systems as being 1) service to the state and most importantly 2) reduced cost. I would attend UCLA over USC both at full cost. However, I would go to USC over UCLA if costs were equal, because the USC education is valued at double the UCLA one. Penn and UVA are peer schools, just like USC/UCLA. However, part of what makes UVA such an attractive option is its reduced cost. ATL, for example, ranks schools according to placement ability and cost. UVA does incredibly well in part due to this factor - better than CLS and NYU despite much lower firm numbers. For a VA resident, UVA is a better option than anything outside HYS (IMO). For OP, who has never been to virginia and cost wise draws far less perceivable benefit from attending UVA, this is null. http://abovethelaw.com/careers/law-school-rankings/
Lastly, OP does not want to work in DC/VA.

I'll admit to a prejudice when it comes to the connections and support offered by private schools. I'm not saying UVA/Cal/Michigan aren't amazing law schools. I just think they should offer a reduced cost to their residents, which makes them superior alternatives, given that is their stated mission.


JFC

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sinfiery
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Re: Penn vs UVA

Postby sinfiery » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:13 pm

You assume their stated difference in worth from the fact that they charge less (tho this has its purposes, it lowers said value of education and thus the private education is worth more).

But when said law schools charge as much as said private schools, you no longer have this basis to make what is already a questionable statement (value of product based on cost) and yet your course of action is that they lower their costs because even tho the only reason you assume they are worth less in value (private usually cost more than public) is no longer true, the public is worth less and thus should cost less.

Circular argument.
Last edited by sinfiery on Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BigZuck
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Re: Penn vs UVA

Postby BigZuck » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:15 pm

A thread about MVP(B) turning into a butthurt fest? Who would have thought?

Seriously though, I get why everyone thinks its an elitist statement. And it's too broad to say. But I get it to some extent.

Public versus private isn't why I would ever choose Penn over UVA however.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Penn vs UVA

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:22 pm

I'm so confused by all the public/private talk. The important questions are what the school offers and at what cost.

Back to the point at hand: Pretty much everyone agrees Penn is a better school for OP's goals. Is it $55k better at low debt levels? Discuss.

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NoodleyOne
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Re: Penn vs UVA

Postby NoodleyOne » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:22 pm

BigZuck wrote:A thread about MVP(B) turning into a butthurt fest? Who would have thought?

Seriously though, I get why everyone thinks its an elitist statement. And it's too broad to say. But I get it to some extent.

Public versus private isn't why I would ever choose Penn over UVA however.

It's not that it's elitist. It's that it's fucking stupid.

Mal Reynolds
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Re: Penn vs UVA

Postby Mal Reynolds » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:25 pm

NoodleyOne wrote:It's not that it's elitist. It's that it's fucking stupid.


Not only is the content stupid, it's being debated by all 0Ls.

BigZuck
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Re: Penn vs UVA

Postby BigZuck » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:35 pm

Mal Reynolds wrote:
NoodleyOne wrote:It's not that it's elitist. It's that it's fucking stupid.


Not only is the content stupid, it's being debated by all 0Ls.


I'm kind of confused as to what the number before one's L has to do with it.

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twenty
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Re: Penn vs UVA

Postby twenty » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:36 pm

but I am expected to pay back later


It's not free you guys.

Personal thoughts. UVA and Penn, regardless of the HOMG CCNP nonsense, are peer schools. The fact that Penn's undergrad is an Ivy and UVA's undergrad isn't is a very silly way to make a distinction here -- especially one that will end up costing you 50k more.

According to LST, 81% of UVA's outcomes rocked. From Penn, 82.3. This is a better comparison number to judge the two schools than what percent they placed in Biglaw. Would you think those 14% of grads from UVA that went into federal clerkships couldn't get biglaw, or that those that self-selected into the massive public interest base UVA has (excluding the whole school funded thing!) wouldn't have been able to get biglaw if they'd gone for a 2L SA gig?

Penn is not worth 50k more than UVA.

Mal Reynolds
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Re: Penn vs UVA

Postby Mal Reynolds » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:41 pm

BigZuck wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:
NoodleyOne wrote:It's not that it's elitist. It's that it's fucking stupid.


Not only is the content stupid, it's being debated by all 0Ls.


I'm kind of confused as to what the number before one's L has to do with it.


Because it's all baseless speculation at this point.

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NoodleyOne
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Re: Penn vs UVA

Postby NoodleyOne » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:41 pm

Mal Reynolds wrote:
NoodleyOne wrote:It's not that it's elitist. It's that it's fucking stupid.


Not only is the content stupid, it's being debated by all 0Ls.

Hey, I'm only a couple of months away from being a 1L. THEN you'll all see!

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jbagelboy
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Re: Penn vs UVA

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:55 pm

Mal Reynolds wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:
NoodleyOne wrote:It's not that it's elitist. It's that it's fucking stupid.


Not only is the content stupid, it's being debated by all 0Ls.


I'm kind of confused as to what the number before one's L has to do with it.


Because it's all baseless speculation at this point.


okay hold on hold on wowww -- as far as considerations:

1) how does the school place for your goals
2) how much does it cost

..
..

3) what kind of educational experience do you prefer*

..
..
..

7) school culture**

*class size/student-faculty ratio (sometimes lower at private)
**whether you prefer private/public

Penn is better for OP's goals. Only at equal cost and peer placement do 3-7 even come into play

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UVAIce
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Re: Penn vs UVA

Postby UVAIce » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:57 pm

So much of this is pointless. Have you been to these schools? Which do you actually like better? It seems to me that people forget that going to an institution and community that sets you at ease is going to make 1L significantly easier (better chance to fulfill your potential).

Anyhow, ~$50K is a serious amount of money that you should not trivialize. But given that your goal is NYC, and if you're actually certain about this, then I would pick Penn. I say this as a UVA student that chose UVA due to the fact that its DC placement was great compared to the other MVP(B) schools. But if you like UVA and Charlottesville over Penn and Philadelphia, the placement difference is really not THAT massive.

I would also like to say that I really do believe that a lot of Penn's better placement is due to it being a smaller school. Say what you will, but you can consistently see where smaller top schools have better placement statistics compared to their "big brothers."

Mal Reynolds
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Re: Penn vs UVA

Postby Mal Reynolds » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:59 pm

Your other post wasn't discussing personal preference regarding private v. public. You were discussing "connections and support," at which point I tuned out because you know precisely dick about that as a 0L.

Ti Malice
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Re: Penn vs UVA

Postby Ti Malice » Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:50 pm

While self-selection probably explains some of the difference, I doubt that it explains the entirety or even the majority of Penn's dominating advantage over UVA in BigLaw+FedClerk placement. Over the last two classes, Penn has averaged 72.1% placement and UVA has averaged 54.9% placement in BigLaw+FedClerk. Taking into consideration the high percentage of students that supreme rankings harlot UVA has had to hire to inflate its employment numbers above near-basement level in the T14 (15.9% on average over the last two classes) versus the small percentage for Penn (2.1%), it appears pretty likely that below-median is a much scarier place to be at UVA than at Penn.

Especially since your debt won't be accruing interest -- and will actually be deflating in value -- I would easily take Penn here.

Ti Malice
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Re: Penn vs UVA

Postby Ti Malice » Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:03 pm

twentypercentmore wrote:According to LST, 81% of UVA's outcomes rocked. From Penn, 82.3.


At best, that's an extremely questionable statement. "Public service" includes everything from DOJ and ACLU down to Charlottesville Legal Aid. No doubt some UVA grads are getting good PI/gov't jobs, but elite PI/gov't jobs are much harder to get than BigLaw, are barely available, and go overwhelmingly to YHS grads. And even from YHS, "prestigious" PI/gov't are extremely difficult to get. Nowhere close to all of UVA's grads "public service" in public service are "rocking" it by any stretch of the imagination. The far more reliable metric for non-YHS schools' placement success is BigLaw+FedClerk.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Penn vs UVA

Postby rickgrimes69 » Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:33 pm

twentypercentmore wrote:According to LST, 81% of UVA's outcomes rocked. From Penn, 82.3. This is a better comparison number to judge the two schools than what percent they placed in Biglaw.


Oh my god it absolutely isn't.

First of all, how are you getting this statistic? Fedclerk + Biglaw + P.I./Gov? Maybe you haven't noticed but desirable P.I. and government spots dried up with the sequester and I think it's pretty safe to say not all 20% of UVA's public service grads are happy with their outcome.

Second, and more importantly, OP WANTS BIGLAW so adding 20% of irrelevant outcomes into his odds is completely beyond the scope of this discussion.

UVA and Penn might be peer schools, but not when it comes to Biglaw. Penn blows every other non HYS T14 out of the park and they have for years now. Asserting that they are equals in this respect is obviously wrong and easily disproven.

edit: I leave my desk for a few minutes and get scooped by T.I. +1 to you sir.

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Doorkeeper
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Re: Penn vs UVA

Postby Doorkeeper » Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:04 pm

Penn > UVA for NYC biglaw.

/thread.

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Br3v
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Re: Penn vs UVA

Postby Br3v » Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:26 pm

BigZuck wrote:
Br3v wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:but if you can get a private education with stronger numbers for free over a public one, do it.


Both good choices, but if you do decide Penn definitely don't do so for the above asinine reason.


I don't think it's asinine.


I do though...

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chuckbass
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Re: Penn vs UVA

Postby chuckbass » Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:35 pm

Doorkeeper wrote:Penn > UVA for NYC biglaw.

/thread.

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UVAIce
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Re: Penn vs UVA

Postby UVAIce » Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:43 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:According to LST, 81% of UVA's outcomes rocked. From Penn, 82.3. This is a better comparison number to judge the two schools than what percent they placed in Biglaw.


Oh my god it absolutely isn't.

First of all, how are you getting this statistic? Fedclerk + Biglaw + P.I./Gov? Maybe you haven't noticed but desirable P.I. and government spots dried up with the sequester and I think it's pretty safe to say not all 20% of UVA's public service grads are happy with their outcome.

Second, and more importantly, OP WANTS BIGLAW so adding 20% of irrelevant outcomes into his odds is completely beyond the scope of this discussion.

UVA and Penn might be peer schools, but not when it comes to Biglaw. Penn blows every other non HYS T14 out of the park and they have for years now. Asserting that they are equals in this respect is obviously wrong and easily disproven.

edit: I leave my desk for a few minutes and get scooped by T.I. +1 to you sir.


You have kind of been a troll lately. Duke has been bad for you.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Penn vs UVA

Postby rickgrimes69 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:36 am

UVAIce wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:According to LST, 81% of UVA's outcomes rocked. From Penn, 82.3. This is a better comparison number to judge the two schools than what percent they placed in Biglaw.


Oh my god it absolutely isn't.

First of all, how are you getting this statistic? Fedclerk + Biglaw + P.I./Gov? Maybe you haven't noticed but desirable P.I. and government spots dried up with the sequester and I think it's pretty safe to say not all 20% of UVA's public service grads are happy with their outcome.

Second, and more importantly, OP WANTS BIGLAW so adding 20% of irrelevant outcomes into his odds is completely beyond the scope of this discussion.

UVA and Penn might be peer schools, but not when it comes to Biglaw. Penn blows every other non HYS T14 out of the park and they have for years now. Asserting that they are equals in this respect is obviously wrong and easily disproven.

edit: I leave my desk for a few minutes and get scooped by T.I. +1 to you sir.


You have kind of been a troll lately. Duke has been bad for you.


Ah right, the 'ol "cite facts and statistics from LST" gambit. Classic.




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