Law School Site Comparable to Businessweek MBA Rankings?

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namename
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Law School Site Comparable to Businessweek MBA Rankings?

Postby namename » Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:55 pm

This may be a shout into the void, but is there a law school equivalent to the Bloomberg Businessweek business school website?

http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/rankings

For background, the Businessweek MBA site has headline data in simple form. It also contains drill-down sections* on:

Admissions - information on test scores (showing a score v. admit distribution where data is available), applicant av. base salary, and top feeder companies and schools.
Careers - information on top industries and employers of alumni, distribution of starting salaries for recent graduates (incl. a breakout for signing bonuses), long-term pay distributions sortable by industry and job function(!)......even destination and pay of interns.
Tuition - information on program cost, budget, and opportunity cost(!), distribution of financial aid packages, % of institutional scholarship recipients who receive scholarships in the next year(!), and average post-graduation debt.

...and on academics, student body, and alumni network.

Put kindly, USNWR is inadequate and TLS profiles are outdated and hardly comparable.

*Note that the level of available detail depends on the MBA program.

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TheThriller
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Re: Law School Site Comparable to Businessweek MBA Rankings?

Postby TheThriller » Sat Jun 08, 2013 5:06 pm

Law school transparency

Ti Malice
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Re: Law School Site Comparable to Businessweek MBA Rankings?

Postby Ti Malice » Sat Jun 08, 2013 5:14 pm

There are no rankings included, but this site will provide as much information as you'll find anywhere else: http://www.lstscorereports.com/. Some of the information you'll find there is still subject to strategic manipulation by the schools (e.g. UVA and employment data), but it's the best data available.

General uselessness of USNWR rankings aside, the pecking order of law schools is very straightforward, is the subject of broad consensus, and is not subject to much fluctuation.

(1) Yale, Harvard, and Stanford are the undisputed top three. If you want any real chance at getting the most competitive jobs (which are not BigLaw jobs, by the way) and judicial clerkships, you need to be at one of these three schools. Yale is at the top of the heap, and Stanford appears to place better than Harvard in a down economy. Harvard is still amazing, but the bottom of the class struggles there more in a down economy than at Y and S. LST stats don't mean as much for these schools, because there are varying degrees of self-selection into public interest law (most common at Yale), other advanced degree programs (particularly common at Yale, with its academic bent), and lucrative non-legal careers (fairly common at all three). For a decent number of people at all three schools, BigLaw is seen as something of a disappointing fallback option.

(2) Columbia, Chicago, and NYU are the next three and have been for a long time.

(3) Applicants often cite the next two levels as a grouping of Michigan, UVA, Penn, and Berkeley, followed by a grouping of Duke, Northwestern, Cornell, and Georgetown. People do this because these schools are consistently grouped this way in USNWR, but there isn't a really good reason for this distinction. For starters, Georgetown is unequivocally last among the traditional "top 14" and does not belong in either grouping. Also, several schools in the second grouping place just as well or better than some schools in the first. Penn is the strongest among all of these by a decent amount, and Michigan probably belongs at the bottom. Look at employment data for the rest, but beware of UVA's gaming of numbers as an unrivaled rankings harlot.

(4) Georgetown brings up the rear of the traditional "top 14."

(5) The next four schools (Texas, UCLA, Vandy, and USC) are all decently strong in their regions, but their degrees are less portable than degrees from the top 14.

(6) After that, any rankings are pretty much irrelevant. The remaining 90% of schools place locally. School A might have better overall employment stats than School B, but that doesn't mean that School A will place better in School B's region. Don't think your JD from Iowa (26th in USNWR) is going to get you a job in Pittsburgh ahead of someone with a similar class ranking from Pitt (ranked 91st). USNWR rankings after the first 18 schools are comically out of step with employment prospects. American was Tier 1 until this past year, but its employment prospects have been worse than the majority of Tier 4 schools for years. UC-Hastings and UC-Davis are other examples of USNWR rankings absurdity.

namename
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Re: Law School Site Comparable to Businessweek MBA Rankings?

Postby namename » Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:16 pm

Ti Malice wrote:There are no rankings included, but this site will provide as much information as you'll find anywhere else: http://www.lstscorereports.com/. Some of the information you'll find there is still subject to strategic manipulation by the schools (e.g. UVA and employment data), but it's the best data available.

General uselessness of USNWR rankings aside, the pecking order of law schools is very straightforward, is the subject of broad consensus, and is not subject to much fluctuation.


Thank you, Ti Malice. I've been reading TLS for several years, and am aware of the general T3/T6, etc., classifications. (Though you provide some great information!)

My question is driven by frustration at the inability to find more than anecdotal information. Law school is an incredibly large investment - on the order of $350,000+ for many people, and up to $750,000 for those with lucrative careers. How on earth is one supposed to make such a decision on the basis of: median LSAT and median GPA of fellow classmates, fictional high-level starting salary and placement data, and anecdotal stories gleaned from various fora?

Or, is the rank of one's school of such overriding importance that it dictates outcomes even for specific situations (e.g., intellectual property law with the hope of working in counsel's office at high-profile tech startup; criminal law with hope of working as federal attorney on immigration-related issues). I know the common wisdom is yes, but what data backs this up?

Or, is the choice of law school essentially meaningless because "the cream rises to the top"? Phrased differently, the best students attend the best law schools, and have high outcomes not because of the schools, but because of pre-existing skills/dispositions? With MBA programs, you can begin to sketch an answer with data on: top feeder companies, top feeder universities, average pre-MBA salary, distribution of post-MBA starting compensation, 5-year compensation, and ten-year compensation, etc.

I'm not trying to be incendiary, but the whole law school decision system seems rather unmoored.

namename
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Re: Law School Site Comparable to Businessweek MBA Rankings?

Postby namename » Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:28 pm

TheThriller wrote:Law school transparency


A good start, though better at describing the problem than providing the relevant data.


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untar614
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Re: Law School Site Comparable to Businessweek MBA Rankings?

Postby untar614 » Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:45 pm

So on a related note, is CBS the Georgetown of the M7?

namename
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Re: Law School Site Comparable to Businessweek MBA Rankings?

Postby namename » Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:24 pm

untar614 wrote:So on a related note, is CBS the Georgetown of the M7?


Borrowing from a different forum:

"To be blunt, people use these terms to associate their schools with better ranked schools. How often do you hear HBS bragging about being in the M7? Or Yale reminding people it's in the Ivy League?

Here's a quick guide:

If someone describes their school as the top ranked school, they go to HBS or Stanford
If someone says they go to a "Top 3" school, they go to Wharton
If someone says they go to a "Top 5" school, its either Chicago, Kellogg, or MIT Sloan
If someone says they're in the "M7", they go to Columbia
If someone says "Top 10", they mean Tuck, Ross, Haas, or <insert whatever school you insist belongs in the top ten, thus proving my point> "

http://forums.businessweek.com/discussi ... v=messages

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banjo
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Re: Law School Site Comparable to Businessweek MBA Rankings?

Postby banjo » Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:54 pm

I'm not sure why LST, and the ABA data underlying it, don't address some of your questions. LST provides a detailed picture of various schools' placement into the most desirable jobs you can get out of law school, including federal clerkships and large firm work. Take some time to go through the site. It is a very good way to judge whether a law school is worth the investment.

There are ongoing debates about interpreting the data (self-selection, target markets of students, etc.), but these satellite debates won't change your law school choice that much anyway.

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Micdiddy
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Re: Law School Site Comparable to Businessweek MBA Rankings?

Postby Micdiddy » Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:18 am

namename wrote: With MBA programs, you can begin to sketch an answer with data on: top feeder companies, top feeder universities, average pre-MBA salary, distribution of post-MBA starting compensation, 5-year compensation, and ten-year compensation, etc.

I'm not trying to be incendiary, but the whole law school decision system seems rather unmoored.


I'm pretty sure all this info is out there for law schools.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Law School Site Comparable to Businessweek MBA Rankings?

Postby jbagelboy » Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:50 am

namename wrote:
untar614 wrote:So on a related note, is CBS the Georgetown of the M7?


Borrowing from a different forum:

"To be blunt, people use these terms to associate their schools with better ranked schools. How often do you hear HBS bragging about being in the M7? Or Yale reminding people it's in the Ivy League?

Here's a quick guide:

If someone describes their school as the top ranked school, they go to HBS or Stanford
If someone says they go to a "Top 3" school, they go to Wharton
If someone says they go to a "Top 5" school, its either Chicago, Kellogg, or MIT Sloan
If someone says they're in the "M7", they go to Columbia
If someone says "Top 10", they mean Tuck, Ross, Haas, or <insert whatever school you insist belongs in the top ten, thus proving my point> "

http://forums.businessweek.com/discussi ... v=messages


Lol so much for modesty. Do you really believe everyone actively plays up their own pedigree? This isnt how most people talk about themselves, or maybe this account comes from someone who spends a lot of time around pretentious aspies. Then again these are MBAs, but still.

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MyNameIsFlynn!
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Re: Law School Site Comparable to Businessweek MBA Rankings?

Postby MyNameIsFlynn! » Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:10 am

Micdiddy wrote:
namename wrote: With MBA programs, you can begin to sketch an answer with data on: top feeder companies, top feeder universities, average pre-MBA salary, distribution of post-MBA starting compensation, 5-year compensation, and ten-year compensation, etc.

I'm not trying to be incendiary, but the whole law school decision system seems rather unmoored.


I'm pretty sure all this info is out there for law schools.


I'd love to see this data. Where do you think it is? We can find feeder info and 9 month employment and salary info but the rest of it I don't know about...

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Re: Law School Site Comparable to Businessweek MBA Rankings?

Postby 20141023 » Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:05 am

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pastapplicant
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Re: Law School Site Comparable to Businessweek MBA Rankings?

Postby pastapplicant » Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:53 am

Businessweek rankings for B schools are known universally as being full of crap. Seriously Booth above Stanford, Wharton, and HBS? No Columbia on the front page. Cornell being in the mix?

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Re: Law School Site Comparable to Businessweek MBA Rankings?

Postby namename » Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:09 pm

pastapplicant wrote:Businessweek rankings for B schools are known universally as being full of crap. Seriously Booth above Stanford, Wharton, and HBS? No Columbia on the front page. Cornell being in the mix?


Several responders seem to miss the point - I'm not interested in the actual rankings, but the underlying data. I'm also not terribly convinced by "common-knowledge" judgements of quality.

As for the adequacy of LST: it is far too abstract. Is the legal profession so monolithic that all "big-firm" jobs can be meaningfully lumped into one category? All appellate clerkships?

Consider, for example, an individual deciding whether and how to spend $500,000 on legal education. He is interested in several legal areas (e.g., criminal law, international business law, health care law) and not interested in others (e.g., tax law, intellectual property law, environmental law). $500,000 is a large amount of money, so he wants to understand the possible investment. Some questions he might ask himself:

- What is the likely monetary ROI of my investment? To answer he'd want to know things like: What is the distribution of starting salaries and bonuses for newly graduated lawyers from schools X,Y,Z? How does this distribution change over 5 years? 10 years?

- How well do schools X,Y,Z place in firms, corporations, or other organizations that have strong criminal, international business, or health care practices/exposure? To answer he'd want to know the largest employers of graduates by name or industrial/functional strength.

- How strong is my cohort and alumni network? To answer he'd want to know things like: What is the median pre-law salary for those with work experience? What sectors, industries, or functions employ them? What share of alumni occupy senior positions in the sectors, industries, or functions of interest?

...among other things. Anyway, I suppose this stems from my gut reaction that wanting to go to law school "to practice law" is a comically broad justification for spending $350,000 to $750,000. For those who have made the decision to attend law school (i.e., current or former law students): how much thought did you put into what you wanted to do after law school, before you made the decision to attend? How did you evaluate potential schools for ROI and ability to open doors in the sectors, industries, or functions you sought?

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Law School Site Comparable to Businessweek MBA Rankings?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:20 pm

You might argue that this in itself is the problem, but: I think law and business are so different that it affects this kind of analysis. Most MBA applicants have significant job experience in their field before getting the MBA. Law students don't - even if you work in a law firm before law school, you're not going to get the kind of experience you get as a lawyer. It's notoriously common for people to go to law school thinking they want to do one kind of law, and to end up practicing a different kind of law entirely (this happened to me). A huge proportion of law students are also K-JD. So although what you suggest below makes sense:

For those who have made the decision to attend law school (i.e., current or former law students): how much thought did you put into what you wanted to do after law school, before you made the decision to attend? How did you evaluate potential schools for ROI and ability to open doors in the sectors, industries, or functions you sought?


It's just not the same in law as in business. Students entering law school generally think in terms of biglaw v. public interest. Some have narrower goals within those fields, but even for those students, the analysis is going to be very different than in business, where people are already working in the fields in which they'll likely continue working after the degree. I mean, you can even get an undergrad BA in business (however they are regarded), which is ostensibly relevant to your field. There are no UG law degrees (in this country) and "pre-law" is a ridiculous hodge-podge of nothing in particular. So the kind of analysis applicants make about law school focuses on what kind of job opportunities you have - speaking broadly, like biglaw v. public interest. I think it's difficult for most law school applicants to start parsing "biglaw" more finely until they've actually gone to law school.

(Again, you may see this as itself part of the problem. But the 2 degrees are just completely different.)

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chuckbass
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Re: Law School Site Comparable to Businessweek MBA Rankings?

Postby chuckbass » Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:25 pm

OP, where are you getting this insane figure of $750,000 when referring to the cost of law school?

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untar614
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Re: Law School Site Comparable to Businessweek MBA Rankings?

Postby untar614 » Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:26 pm

namename wrote:
pastapplicant wrote:Businessweek rankings for B schools are known universally as being full of crap. Seriously Booth above Stanford, Wharton, and HBS? No Columbia on the front page. Cornell being in the mix?


Several responders seem to miss the point - I'm not interested in the actual rankings, but the underlying data. I'm also not terribly convinced by "common-knowledge" judgements of quality.

As for the adequacy of LST: it is far too abstract. Is the legal profession so monolithic that all "big-firm" jobs can be meaningfully lumped into one category? All appellate clerkships?

Consider, for example, an individual deciding whether and how to spend $500,000 on legal education. He is interested in several legal areas (e.g., criminal law, international business law, health care law) and not interested in others (e.g., tax law, intellectual property law, environmental law). $500,000 is a large amount of money, so he wants to understand the possible investment. Some questions he might ask himself:

- What is the likely monetary ROI of my investment? To answer he'd want to know things like: What is the distribution of starting salaries and bonuses for newly graduated lawyers from schools X,Y,Z? How does this distribution change over 5 years? 10 years?

- How well do schools X,Y,Z place in firms, corporations, or other organizations that have strong criminal, international business, or health care practices/exposure? To answer he'd want to know the largest employers of graduates by name or industrial/functional strength.

- How strong is my cohort and alumni network? To answer he'd want to know things like: What is the median pre-law salary for those with work experience? What sectors, industries, or functions employ them? What share of alumni occupy senior positions in the sectors, industries, or functions of interest?

...among other things. Anyway, I suppose this stems from my gut reaction that wanting to go to law school "to practice law" is a comically broad justification for spending $350,000 to $750,000. For those who have made the decision to attend law school (i.e., current or former law students): how much thought did you put into what you wanted to do after law school, before you made the decision to attend? How did you evaluate potential schools for ROI and ability to open doors in the sectors, industries, or functions you sought?


Who's paying that much money to go to law school? The only way that's possible is if you are factoring in lost income, but those numbers require a pretty big income. Even if someone went at sticker, that comes out to about 280k after interest, so for it to cost 750k including opportunity cost, they wouldve had to be making 160k post-tax income, in which case they probably shouldn't have gone to law school in the first place.

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Re: Law School Site Comparable to Businessweek MBA Rankings?

Postby NYstate » Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:33 pm

Yes, biglaw salaries are lockstep. It is monolithic in that regard. There is no data on exit options as they vary so much.

Although schools may trumpet their specialties, it doesn't matter. The school name is what matters not their environmental law program.

I think the data you are looking for doesn't exist.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Law School Site Comparable to Businessweek MBA Rankings?

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:37 pm

Several responders seem to miss the point - I'm not interested in the actual rankings, but the underlying data. I'm also not terribly convinced by "common-knowledge" judgements of quality.


Some of what you're looking for exists in hard data, and some is logical conjecture. We take what we can and make reasonable conclusions about other things. I assume this is pretty much how anyone determines the health of any profession.

As for the adequacy of LST: it is far too abstract. Is the legal profession so monolithic that all "big-firm" jobs can be meaningfully lumped into one category? All appellate clerkships?


I don't understand your complaint. If you're looking to categorize employment prospects, then "big firms" (typically defined as 250+ attorneys) is a useful barometer to represent the highest-paying, most prestigious private practice work. No, they aren't all the same, nor are all appellate clerkships. Some may be more desirable than others, depending on the particulars of an individual's situation. Big firms get lumped together market-wise because, by and large, most of them pay the same starting salary ($160,000). As far as these categories speak in general terms to employment prospects, then yes, they are meaningful.

- What is the likely monetary ROI of my investment? To answer he'd want to know things like: What is the distribution of starting salaries and bonuses for newly graduated lawyers from schools X,Y,Z? How does this distribution change over 5 years? 10 years?


Data regarding starting salaries, usually with 25th, 50th and 75th percentile, and usually parsed for public and private, exists for any school and you can easily Google it for whatever school you want. The salary distributions become less meaningful because very few graduates will be in the same job 5 or 10 years down the line and it's heavily influenced by self-selection. But in general, except for those who make partner, salaries decrease after their first job. These data can be--and frequently are--used to estimate ROI.

- How well do schools X,Y,Z place in firms, corporations, or other organizations that have strong criminal, international business, or health care practices/exposure? To answer he'd want to know the largest employers of graduates by name or industrial/functional strength.


For large firms, this exists and can be found here. You will, of course, need to determine yourself which firms (who have different strengths in different specialties areas) are meaningful to you.

- How strong is my cohort and alumni network? To answer he'd want to know things like: What is the median pre-law salary for those with work experience?


This isn't a question about how law school affects job prospects, so law schools and legal organizations wouldn't know it. The only people that would know are the entering students.

What sectors, industries, or functions employ them?


This is in the LST reports people have shown you, which you apparently thought was too "abstract."

What share of alumni occupy senior positions in the sectors, industries, or functions of interest?


You can go on essentially any firm's website and see which partners went to what schools. An overarching list of schools by number of partners at major firms can be found here, although keep in mind you should qualify the data for class size.

...among other things. Anyway, I suppose this stems from my gut reaction that wanting to go to law school "to practice law" is a comically broad justification for spending $350,000 to $750,000.


I don't know where you're coming up with this range. No law school has a total COA of over $300k.

Linked here is a bunch of NALP data that may help you to answer other salary-related questions.

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Re: Law School Site Comparable to Businessweek MBA Rankings?

Postby guano » Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:50 pm

namename wrote:
pastapplicant wrote:Businessweek rankings for B schools are known universally as being full of crap. Seriously Booth above Stanford, Wharton, and HBS? No Columbia on the front page. Cornell being in the mix?


Several responders seem to miss the point - I'm not interested in the actual rankings, but the underlying data. I'm also not terribly convinced by "common-knowledge" judgements of quality.

As for the adequacy of LST: it is far too abstract. Is the legal profession so monolithic that all "big-firm" jobs can be meaningfully lumped into one category? All appellate clerkships?

Consider, for example, an individual deciding whether and how to spend $500,000 on legal education. He is interested in several legal areas (e.g., criminal law, international business law, health care law) and not interested in others (e.g., tax law, intellectual property law, environmental law). $500,000 is a large amount of money, so he wants to understand the possible investment. Some questions he might ask himself:
this would require giving up an $80k plus job to pay sticker at a NY school. The number if people to who this applies is very very small. Don't be daft
namename wrote:- What is the likely monetary ROI of my investment? To answer he'd want to know things like: What is the distribution of starting salaries and bonuses for newly graduated lawyers from schools X,Y,Z? How does this distribution change over 5 years? 10 years?
This information is readily available if you do a bit of digging. Last year dingbat created a calculator for this.
namename wrote:- How well do schools X,Y,Z place in firms, corporations, or other organizations that have strong criminal, international business, or health care practices/exposure? To answer he'd want to know the largest employers of graduates by name or industrial/functional strength.
i think you misunderstand how hiring works. But I'll let someone else address this
namename wrote:- How strong is my cohort and alumni network? To answer he'd want to know things like: What is the median pre-law salary for those with work experience? What sectors, industries, or functions employ them? What share of alumni occupy senior positions in the sectors, industries, or functions of interest?
where are you getting this from? That data has nothing to with the question you're asking. But, common sense and anecdotes go a long way
namename wrote:...among other things. Anyway, I suppose this stems from my gut reaction that wanting to go to law school "to practice law" is a comically broad justification for spending $350,000 to $750,000. For those who have made the decision to attend law school (i.e., current or former law students): how much thought did you put into what you wanted to do after law school, before you made the decision to attend? How did you evaluate potential schools for ROI and ability to open doors in the sectors, industries, or functions you sought?

No one whose cost (incl. opportunity cost) exceeds half a million cannon early say the ROI was a deciding factor.
That being said, I put a lot of thought into such matters. I can tell you the data is not hard to find. It's all available through LST, the ABA and the schools themselves.
You do need to apply critical thinking and common sense to it (eg harvard's business&industey is different from Cooley's business&industry).

20141023
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Re: Law School Site Comparable to Businessweek MBA Rankings?

Postby 20141023 » Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:13 pm

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namename
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Re: Law School Site Comparable to Businessweek MBA Rankings?

Postby namename » Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:44 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:You might argue that this in itself is the problem, but: I think law and business are so different that it affects this kind of analysis. Most MBA applicants have significant job experience in their field before getting the MBA. Law students don't...So the kind of analysis applicants make about law school focuses on what kind of job opportunities you have - speaking broadly, like biglaw v. public interest. I think it's difficult for most law school applicants to start parsing "biglaw" more finely until they've actually gone to law school.

This is a thoughtful response. Yes, I do believe that is in itself the problem.

As a blanket response to others, my concerns are: that "big law" is not a meaningfully specific category, and outcomes data for the legal field do not go much beyond medians, range markers, and anecdote. (The NLJ Go-To website is helpful though.) If someone asks a lawyer, "What do you do?" and the lawyer responds, "Oh, I work in big law," the immediate next question would be, "Right, but what do you do?" Again, this likely stems from my feeling that wanting a career "in the law" is too broad for personal comfort, and so high-level data are not sufficient to address my questions.

The cost estimates are back of the envelope, but include opportunity costs (NPV of foregone salary+opportunity cost of lost investment above consumption) and debt+interest. If you make 50k a year, the opportunity cost for three years is around 90k after basic living costs. Above that level, the investment costs rise. At 100k a year in salary, you are looking at large levels of foregone compound investment wealth. For instance, say that instead of going to law school, you work for those three years and save $150,000. After ten years at 10% CAGR, you've accumulated $389,000. After 20 years, you've accumulated $1,000,000+.

So, if you leave a good job to go to law school, you can very easily find yourself negative $750,000 (tuition+interest, foregone wages+investment wealth).

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chuckbass
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Re: Law School Site Comparable to Businessweek MBA Rankings?

Postby chuckbass » Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:05 pm

Well if you're looking at law school solely as an investment you're looking at it wrong. You should go to law school if you want to be a lawyer, and yes there is certain financial risk involved here, but that's the bottom line.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Law School Site Comparable to Businessweek MBA Rankings?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:07 pm

namename wrote:If someone asks a lawyer, "What do you do?" and the lawyer responds, "Oh, I work in big law," the immediate next question would be, "Right, but what do you do?" Again, this likely stems from my feeling that wanting a career "in the law" is too broad for personal comfort, and so high-level data are not sufficient to address my questions.

I think the key words her are "for personal comfort." For the majority of legal applicants, biglaw is a meaningful category. You'd probably drill down to corporate/litigation, but not too much further.

As for your financial calculations - well, you live in a different universe, brother. I entered law school after having another career and I still make more as a law clerk than I ever made before law school. Lost investment? What investment? If you're talking to K-JDs who majored in a humanities/soft social science, they are not making $100K/yr or saving $150K for the 3 years of law school. It's really just not a consideration for most people.




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