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rt830
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Postby rt830 » Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:52 pm

Thank you all for feedback, will post where I end up!
Last edited by rt830 on Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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CaptainLeela
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Re: GULC 90k v. Penn 10k v. NYU sticker

Postby CaptainLeela » Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:57 pm

If what you really want to do is teach, why are you going to law school?

062914123
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Re: GULC 90k v. Penn 10k v. NYU sticker

Postby 062914123 » Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:59 pm

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rt830
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Re: GULC 90k v. Penn 10k v. NYU sticker

Postby rt830 » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:06 pm

Teaching is what I'm good at and I really enjoy it but I didn't want to be one of those stuffy professors who spend their whole lives in academia. Practicing law (and maybe 'making a difference') is my near-time goal though education is my long-term goal

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UVAIce
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Re: GULC 90k v. Penn 10k v. NYU sticker

Postby UVAIce » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:07 pm

rt830 wrote:I'm pretty sure I have different goals from most TLSers, so would appreciate any insight.
- I want to eventually transition out of law entirely to become a teacher.
- I'm ok taking a biglaw job for a couple years to pay down as much debt as possible.
- I feel that I would be happiest at Penn, though this is just gut feeling because I won't be able to visit any of these schools.
- Being stress-free is also worth a lot. I need to feel like I can "safely" pay back this debt. GULC would probably be pretty low-stress due to my scholarship (which I think would not consign me to work biglaw). Penn seems to have good biglaw placement but I'm not sure what would happen if I miss that boat. And NYU seems to have the best placement of all three if you add in biglaw + PI with their awesome LRAP.
- I want to work in Philadelphia or New York after I graduate.
- Prestige is also worth something to me, not for lateraling/V10/clerkship options or whatever, just for myself.COA at each:
GULC $134,000
Penn $230,000
NYU $255,000

Please don't quote; thank you!! Can I just go with my gut in choosing any of these or is there one I should clearly eliminate?


So much is wrong with this. But regardless, I know more people that are actually impressed with the Georgetown namebrand than Penn or NYU, but I suppose that depends on where you come from.

If you really want to work in Philadelphia or NYC than you should go to Penn, hands down. Realize, however, that $230K of debt is substantial. Also, you are probably not even calculating the appreciation on your grad plus loans while you're in school, so your calculated loan payments on those numbers will be too low.

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CaptainLeela
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Re: GULC 90k v. Penn 10k v. NYU sticker

Postby CaptainLeela » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:08 pm

rt830 wrote:Teaching is what I'm good at and I really enjoy it but I didn't want to be one of those stuffy professors who spend their whole lives in academia. Practicing law (and maybe 'making a difference') is my near-time goal though education is my long-term goal


When you say teach do you mean children or as a professor? Sorry, I'm a little confused (and not TLS obnoxious confused, actually confused). Can you expand please? Maybe on your background in teaching and those goals and how you see the law interacting with them?

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Re: GULC 90k v. Penn 10k v. NYU sticker

Postby sinfiery » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:11 pm

Between NYU and Penn. Your safety net is PAYE. If you want PI (helping people), NYU. PSLF equals debt free in 10 years too.

Prestige wise, Penn has more lay prestige, NYU will get you a better chance at a more prestigious firm.


If I were you, I'd gun PI, use PLSF, and from there transition to teaching. Or don't take out 300k in debt because you don't want to fit a certain stereotype. If you want to teach, teach.

rt830
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Re: GULC 90k v. Penn 10k v. NYU sticker

Postby rt830 » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:16 pm

@CapitalLeela I would teach high school or community college. I think it would be great if I could find a way to intersect advocacy with education, but I don't know if there's a way to do that.

@UVAIce lol Why's that? Maybe I'm blunt enough to admit it but I think that's a subconscious factor for many people... Prestige affects a lot of things, I'm not someone who usually makes an immediate impression so I'd prefer to have the credentials ahead of me, and I'm thinking if I'm ever getting hired for a non-law job, I want to go to a school that is known by people in the non-legal field.

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Re: GULC 90k v. Penn 10k v. NYU sticker

Postby ronanOgara » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:22 pm

Georgetown wouldn't be so bad if you wanted Philly and had ties to the area. If you don't have ties and still wanted to live in Philadelphia, well there's another good ol' CaTTTholic school in the Philadelphia region that would probably throw some heavy money your way.

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Re: GULC 90k v. Penn 10k v. NYU sticker

Postby nothingtosee » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:23 pm

If you want to make a difference in the world (aka teach in a school that..."underperforms") the hiring committee won't care if whether your law degree is TTTT or T14. Flagship public will be enough to get you through the door. And the students will not know nor care.
Also loans.

Are you currently employed as a teacher? Or is teaching something you've thought about doing in the future?

I'm just kind of confused why you would take 200k plus loans to do something that takes you further away from being a teacher than doing a 3k alt-cert program.

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Re: GULC 90k v. Penn 10k v. NYU sticker

Postby 062914123 » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:27 pm

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Last edited by 062914123 on Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

rt830
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Re: GULC 90k v. Penn 10k v. NYU sticker

Postby rt830 » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:30 pm

Thanks, I really appreciate your responses guys. The poll is really skewed towards Penn - is that just because I said I'd be happiest there or are there important reasons I should avoid GULC or NYU in my case?

nothingtosee wrote:I'm just kind of confused why you would take 200k plus loans to do something that takes you further away from being a teacher than doing a 3k alt-cert program.


I've done TA'ing and informal teaching, I'm still quite young so I'm not a teacher yet.

My other option would be to get a PhD, and while this would give me the credentials to teach college, I would literally just be doing the PhD to teach. I have zero aptitude for research and it just seems like many lonely years of doing something I'm not interested in just to get me the credential. On the other hand I'm hoping a J.D. will give me some kind of credential (either as a teacher or education administrator), and I wanted to do advocacy work anyway, just not for life.

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Re: GULC 90k v. Penn 10k v. NYU sticker

Postby Tekrul » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:31 pm

Intersecting advocacy with education seems a whole lot like the definition of some ground-level PI work to me. In which case I'd say go NYU and ride LRAP/PAYE all day.

If you consider academia and being a professor 'stuffy', I'm not really seeing the draw for you to become a teacher. If I didn't have making cash on my mind, I'd go straight to get my Ph.D in Philosophy and get into academia ASAP, publishing articles and researching.

I don't consider transferring out of law completely an incompatible goal with going to law school. Plenty of people have plans to raise capital in biglaw and use it to start a business, do real estate, etc. But, it seems like you want to go to law school and do the biglaw grind or PI grind for a few years just to say you did to your future students. Only using the cash to pay back the debt and effectively erase the past few years of your life. That alongside your sentiment for wanting prestige for yourself is a pretty strange goal imo especially considering it comes at the price of pushing back your actual desires.

rt830
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Re: GULC 90k v. Penn 10k v. NYU sticker

Postby rt830 » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:37 pm

Tekrul wrote:If you consider academia and being a professor 'stuffy'

I don't find teaching to be stuffy at all, just thinking the experience of being in academia literally your entire life can make you stuffy.

Tekrul wrote:I don't consider transferring out of law completely an incompatible goal with going to law school. Plenty of people have plans to raise capital in biglaw and use it to start a business, do real estate, etc. But, it seems like you want to go to law school and do the biglaw grind or PI grind for a few years just to say you did to your future students.

This is not really true, not sure where you're drawing this from? I definitely want to make an impact and work in law, but just don't want to go the biglaw -> in-house/lateral path like most people seem to want to do on here. I also think I would enjoy my twenties more as a law student than as a PhD student. It's not just to say I did it or whatever

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Re: GULC 90k v. Penn 10k v. NYU sticker

Postby ronanOgara » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:44 pm

Tekrul wrote:But, it seems like you want to go to law school and do the biglaw grind or PI grind for a few years just to say you did to your future students. Only using the cash to pay back the debt and effectively erase the past few years of your life. That alongside your sentiment for wanting prestige for yourself is a pretty strange goal imo especially considering it comes at the price of pushing back your actual desires.


Why not try to take a full-ride to some lower ranked school, do some litigation somewhere and then become a high school teacher? If your desires for big law are only to repay an unnecessary debt, just don't get the debt in the first place.

But in all seriousness, Villanova has great lay prestige among the common folk in Pennsylvania. Just pretend it's Georgetown

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Re: GULC 90k v. Penn 10k v. NYU sticker

Postby rt830 » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:49 pm

ronanOgara wrote:Why not try to take a full-ride to some lower ranked school, do some litigation somewhere and then become a high school teacher? If your desires for big law are only to repay an unnecessary debt, just don't get the debt in the first place.


Unfortunately, I did not get a full-ride anywhere! (GW offered me even less than GULC...). I also did get 45k from Temple but I would still have the debt from living costs and the rest of tuition, and I'm not sure how well I would do with finding a job post-grad.

ETA: I should have mentioned that while I'm ok with taking biglaw for a couple of years, ideally I would get some kind of meaningful advocacy work like with the EPA or federal government. I don't know if it's worthwhile for me to go to a TTT if my only option out of there would be doing 'shitlaw' or something.
Last edited by rt830 on Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GULC 90k v. Penn 10k v. NYU sticker

Postby ronanOgara » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:52 pm

rt830 wrote:
ronanOgara wrote:Why not try to take a full-ride to some lower ranked school, do some litigation somewhere and then become a high school teacher? If your desires for big law are only to repay an unnecessary debt, just don't get the debt in the first place.


Unfortunately, I did not get a full-ride anywhere! (GW offered me even less than GULC...). I also did get 45k from Temple but I would still have the debt from living costs and the rest of tuition, and I'm not sure how well I would do with finding a job post-grad.


That's not right, somewhere down the line you should have negotiated. And if you did negotiate, you got played

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Re: GULC 90k v. Penn 10k v. NYU sticker

Postby Nelson » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:54 pm

ronanOgara wrote:
rt830 wrote:
ronanOgara wrote:Why not try to take a full-ride to some lower ranked school, do some litigation somewhere and then become a high school teacher? If your desires for big law are only to repay an unnecessary debt, just don't get the debt in the first place.


Unfortunately, I did not get a full-ride anywhere! (GW offered me even less than GULC...). I also did get 45k from Temple but I would still have the debt from living costs and the rest of tuition, and I'm not sure how well I would do with finding a job post-grad.


That's not right, somewhere down the line you should have negotiated. And if you did negotiate, you got played

Temple is broke. They don't negotiate.

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Re: GULC 90k v. Penn 10k v. NYU sticker

Postby ronanOgara » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:58 pm

Nelson wrote:
ronanOgara wrote:
rt830 wrote:
ronanOgara wrote:Why not try to take a full-ride to some lower ranked school, do some litigation somewhere and then become a high school teacher? If your desires for big law are only to repay an unnecessary debt, just don't get the debt in the first place.


Unfortunately, I did not get a full-ride anywhere! (GW offered me even less than GULC...). I also did get 45k from Temple but I would still have the debt from living costs and the rest of tuition, and I'm not sure how well I would do with finding a job post-grad.


That's not right, somewhere down the line you should have negotiated. And if you did negotiate, you got played

Pennsylvania is broke. They don't negotiate.

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Tekrul
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Re: GULC 90k v. Penn 10k v. NYU sticker

Postby Tekrul » Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:26 pm

rt830 wrote:
Tekrul wrote:If you consider academia and being a professor 'stuffy'

I don't find teaching to be stuffy at all, just thinking the experience of being in academia literally your entire life can make you stuffy.

Tekrul wrote:I don't consider transferring out of law completely an incompatible goal with going to law school. Plenty of people have plans to raise capital in biglaw and use it to start a business, do real estate, etc. But, it seems like you want to go to law school and do the biglaw grind or PI grind for a few years just to say you did to your future students.

This is not really true, not sure where you're drawing this from? I definitely want to make an impact and work in law, but just don't want to go the biglaw -> in-house/lateral path like most people seem to want to do on here. I also think I would enjoy my twenties more as a law student than as a PhD student. It's not just to say I did it or whatever


I got my perspective from the fact that you said you'd be ok just going into biglaw just to pay down debt, a prospect that still takes years. Okay, you've clarified that you have a desire to make an impact and work in law, I assume this entails PI stuff, but fighting the white-knight fight is a career. A lifetime dedication to championing something or other. In addition, bouncing around government positions takes years, even decades, before you reach a prestigious level/appointment. Your earlier posts made it seem like you were going to do law school, zero balance your debt, then get started on what you actually wanted to do, teach, 10+ years later for no reason.

Ultimately, I think you've somewhat underestimated the long-term time commitment the goals you've alluded to demand. More realistically, I think the trajectory you would be looking when including reaching a level of distinction in law would place you teaching in your 50's.

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Re: GULC 90k v. Penn 10k v. NYU sticker

Postby jselson » Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:40 pm

I honestly cannot comprehend why anyone would think they needed a JD teach community college/high school. You don't need a PhD either. You only need an MA or a certification. This thread is ridiculous. OP, don't go to law school.

Edit: OP doesn't know what she wants to do. So OP shouldn't go until she figured out a real career plan.

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Re: GULC 90k v. Penn 10k v. NYU sticker

Postby rt830 » Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:58 pm

jselson wrote:OP doesn't know what she wants to do. So OP shouldn't go until she figured out a real career plan.


I appreciate you trying to help, but these are the choices that I am considering at this point, so if you have any advice pertaining to the actual OP that was asked that would be more useful than above comment. While I don't know exactly what I want to do, I do know the general arc I want my career to take. Just because I want to do both law and education doesn't mean that is not a 'real career plan'. A lot of the people on here who say they "want to be a lawyer" (probably also including you at one point) have no idea what they actually want to do, what biglaw is like, or have their careers figured out in any more than an amorphous way when they start law school. So I don't think I am any more or less clueless than the next person that posts on here about wanting to go to law school imo.




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