Michigan ($) or Berkeley?

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worldtraveler
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Re: Michigan ($) or Berkeley?

Postby worldtraveler » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:26 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:For what you want, Berkeley is well worth the extra money. Keep in mind though that the bay area is competitive to get, even from Berkeley.


"Big law regardless of grades" is what I've heard from Berkeley grads. Seemed fishy to me but I'm a 0L so what do I know?

Agreed that if I wanted northern CA big law and I couldn't land HYS I would gun hard for Berkeley. Congrats OP.


Big law anywhere and big law in the bay area are not the same thing. Your odds are better for Berkeley but I wouldn't call it a guarantee by any means.


I know TLS might trash on me for this, but Berkeley does have a sizeable contingent of students who are not interested in gunning for work at large firms. They (like Michigan) have a very strong PI base on the west coast and in the bay area in particular, but also state government jobs and state clerkships. I actually put more stock in Cal's "self-selection" in this regard than Mich. OP may not be interested in NLJ250 (just "end up in the bay area"), so we shouldn't necessarily jump to this as the only conclusive measure


I know. I went to Berkeley. I'm saying that even controlling for all those factors, big law from Berkeley or any peer school is not a guarantee. I know people who struck out. I know more who had trouble getting a competitive market, such as Seattle or San Francisco.

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Bronte
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Re: Michigan ($) or Berkeley?

Postby Bronte » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:43 pm

BigZuck wrote:Yeah, this is part of why I think Michigan has truly fallen a step behind. If Berkeley is full of a bunch of unwashed hippies opting out of big law yet they still wipe the floor with Michigan when it comes to big law numbers then I have a hard time believing that all the dirty hippies at Michigan are turning away from big law jobs that they could have had if only they were willing to sell out.

But this is a dangerous thing to discuss here bro. Butts WILL be hurt.


During my cycle, which wasn't that long ago, Berkeley was the school that had "fallen a step behind" and was always getting trashed on the forum.

BigZuck
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Re: Michigan ($) or Berkeley?

Postby BigZuck » Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:03 am

Bronte wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Yeah, this is part of why I think Michigan has truly fallen a step behind. If Berkeley is full of a bunch of unwashed hippies opting out of big law yet they still wipe the floor with Michigan when it comes to big law numbers then I have a hard time believing that all the dirty hippies at Michigan are turning away from big law jobs that they could have had if only they were willing to sell out.

But this is a dangerous thing to discuss here bro. Butts WILL be hurt.


During my cycle, which wasn't that long ago, Berkeley was the school that had "fallen a step behind" and was always getting trashed on the forum.


The road to MVPB is paved with hurt butts and clueless 0Ls

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J_stack
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Re: Michigan ($) or Berkeley?

Postby J_stack » Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:25 am

worldtraveler wrote:I know. I went to Berkeley. I'm saying that even controlling for all those factors, big law from Berkeley or any peer school is not a guarantee. I know people who struck out. I know more who had trouble getting a competitive market, such as Seattle or San Francisco.


That's interesting to hear. SF is indeed competitive, but I agree with your original post that it would be easier to get SF out of Berkeley than Michigan. Do you think is LA big law is a back up option for those people who strike out? Did you know people who did Midlaw in SF instead?

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Michigan ($) or Berkeley?

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:17 am

Bronte wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Yeah, this is part of why I think Michigan has truly fallen a step behind. If Berkeley is full of a bunch of unwashed hippies opting out of big law yet they still wipe the floor with Michigan when it comes to big law numbers then I have a hard time believing that all the dirty hippies at Michigan are turning away from big law jobs that they could have had if only they were willing to sell out.

But this is a dangerous thing to discuss here bro. Butts WILL be hurt.


During my cycle, which wasn't that long ago, Berkeley was the school that had "fallen a step behind" and was always getting trashed on the forum.


I think Berkeley is, as it always was, a school great for West Coast placement and pretty mediocre everywhere else. Michigan seems to have been on a consistent downward trajectory for the past three years or so (and an inconsistent downward trajectory for, what, thirty years?). There have been reports of general mismanagement at the school with regards to advising their grads on placement. It's hard to say who has improved, relatively, because everyone is so much worse off than they were in '07. Exactly how far Michigan has fallen will be a matter of dispute, but there's no disputing everybody except GULC beat Michigan handily in placement last year.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Michigan ($) or Berkeley?

Postby Dr. Dre » Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:40 am

Don't go to the liberal cesspool that is UC Berkeley.

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CO2016YEAH
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Re: Michigan ($) or Berkeley?

Postby CO2016YEAH » Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:50 am

First of all, and I can't believe it hasn't been mentioned, you have to put in an effort to get them to offer you some form of aid to equalize COA. Even if they have said or you have read they don't offer merit aid to the waitlist there may be a possibility for some form of need grant etc. The point is you have to attempt to get then to match Michigan. Use your best negotiating skills and your most dazzling charm. They won't rescind your offer; you stand to lose nothing so trying will cost you.virtually nothing more than the short amount of time invested.

Aside from that, I have a great deal of respect for the wisdom and encouragement from folks on TLS to avoid debt and to tread carefully into law school. However, I do not there is any reason to avoid sticker at a place like Boalt, especially if you will have the total debt burden around $100k. Literally thousands of 0Ls this cycle alone would be more than thrilled to switch places with you.

To be fair, Michigan will stand a good chance of setting up to launch your career back in the Bay. I would much prefer to start there in ls, though, as existing ties and proximity and an established network are sure to aid in finding a job at graduation. Also, while Michigan is a great school with an outstanding reputation, you have a choice of spending the next three years in the Bay area or Ann Arbor. Some people would say Michigan is beautiful, but I'm not one of them.

A compelling factor leading to Michigan would be substantial savings, bit considering the difference is only 60k I don't think going for savings alone would be justified. You should feel zero guilt about using your college savings for LS, as an aside.

A compelling argument for either would be proximity to where you want to be based and to start building a local network. Boalt wins there.

Lastly, where would you rather live your life for the next three years? I think Boalt wins here again.

If you can think of any other compelling reasons to go to Michigan then give them due weight and consideration, but I'm not seeing any in this thread.

Good luck OP, and congrats on Berkeley! (And Michigan too, sure.)

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CO2016YEAH
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Re: Michigan ($) or Berkeley?

Postby CO2016YEAH » Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:00 am

Dr. Dre wrote:Don't go to the liberal cesspool that is UC Berkeley.


This, I believe, is largely an unjustified stereotype based on activity at the UG in the 60s. There are still plenty of hippies/ultra liberals at the university as a whole, but I believe this element is largely overshadowed by academics and just plain very intelligent people. Also, I understand the law school to be relatively balanced and diverse. Furthermore, if op is self-selecting Boalt and SF as a preference he/she will likely fit in fine to an idiological slant to the school or area as a whole.

Go to Boalt.

Big Dog
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Re: Michigan ($) or Berkeley?

Postby Big Dog » Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:48 am

Also, I understand the law school to be relatively balanced and diverse.


hahahahaha (No way, but few law schools are "balanced.")

Don't go to the liberal cesspool that is UC Berkeley.


Perhaps, but it is still the second best LS (by far) west of the Mississippi River.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Michigan ($) or Berkeley?

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:16 am

CO2016YEAH wrote:First of all, and I can't believe it hasn't been mentioned, you have to put in an effort to get them to offer you some form of aid to equalize COA. Even if they have said or you have read they don't offer merit aid to the waitlist there may be a possibility for some form of need grant etc. The point is you have to attempt to get then to match Michigan. Use your best negotiating skills and your most dazzling charm. They won't rescind your offer; you stand to lose nothing so trying will cost you.virtually nothing more than the short amount of time invested.

Aside from that, I have a great deal of respect for the wisdom and encouragement from folks on TLS to avoid debt and to tread carefully into law school. However, I do not there is any reason to avoid sticker at a place like Boalt, especially if you will have the total debt burden around $100k. Literally thousands of 0Ls this cycle alone would be more than thrilled to switch places with you.

To be fair, Michigan will stand a good chance of setting up to launch your career back in the Bay. I would much prefer to start there in ls, though, as existing ties and proximity and an established network are sure to aid in finding a job at graduation. Also, while Michigan is a great school with an outstanding reputation, you have a choice of spending the next three years in the Bay area or Ann Arbor. Some people would say Michigan is beautiful, but I'm not one of them.

A compelling factor leading to Michigan would be substantial savings, bit considering the difference is only 60k I don't think going for savings alone would be justified. You should feel zero guilt about using your college savings for LS, as an aside.

A compelling argument for either would be proximity to where you want to be based and to start building a local network. Boalt wins there.

Lastly, where would you rather live your life for the next three years? I think Boalt wins here again.

If you can think of any other compelling reasons to go to Michigan then give them due weight and consideration, but I'm not seeing any in this thread.

Good luck OP, and congrats on Berkeley! (And Michigan too, sure.)


Ultimately as Ive stated in briefer terms, I agree with all of this. While its worth asking, however, Berkeley has an incredibly bizarre and rigid financial aid policy. You are unlikely to get need based due to lack of UG debt and parental assets, the matching program ended months ago, and other scholarship opportunities are few and far between even for pre-WL admissions. There is no aid mechanism in place by which OP could expect to receive aid. Conversely, as has been mentioned, this implies many students attend at sticker and are thrilled to do so. Its still an amazing position to be in.

I would reach out to Kristin Alvarez (kpalvarez) who runs the matching scholarship program and see if any funds remain for recently admitted candidates. Scan and submit your Michigan award along with a 1pg essay about your decision and how the award would help you, why you want to go to Cal, what you could contribute to the university ect. I used a Michigan award to match and Cal offered more than the Michigan amount, although I had to hound her for it.

Next, if applicable, Berkeley has a wide range of "minority" scholarships for 1Ls, in addition to scholarships you can apply for as a rising 2L/3L. It sucks they lack a more traditional route, but just because this year doesnt come thru doesnt preclude you from other grants in the future.

Best of luck and feel free to PM for any details about harranging Cal for $$

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J_stack
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Re: Michigan ($) or Berkeley?

Postby J_stack » Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:42 pm

Thanks for the advice, all! I'll be visiting Berkeley soon and then make my decision from there. I'll probe the financial situation at both schools before I decide, but like jbagelboy said, I don't expect to get anything out of Berkeley. And thanks for the heads up, I could possibly qualify for some of those minority scholarships down the road.




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