UCLA, GULC, or Duke?

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bstrac
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UCLA, GULC, or Duke?

Postby bstrac » Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:46 pm

UCLA, GULC, or Duke?

-COA estimate for UCLA: $244,174-$57,000 (scholarship and grant package) = $187,174
-COA estimate for GULC: $263,473 (not sure of financial offer yet, although prior to their offer of admission I informed them of my ~$19,000 per year from UCLA and $20,000 per year offer from USC)
-COA estimate for Duke: $252,727 (I was informed of the possibility of need-based aid but not at the $20,000 per year range).

Most schools have been putting me at around $13,000-$15,000 for need-based aid (FAFSA-derived). I’m figuring that ~$13,000 per year could be what I end up with at Duke or GULC as well?

All costs that aren’t mitigated by grants or scholarships will be in loans.

I am from Sacramento and the Bay Area of California, and would like to work either in the California or DC area.

I understand that UCLA is mostly a consideration for the California market only. I do have a lot of (non-legal, other professional/social) network connections throughout California, including Sacramento, the Bay, and Los Angeles areas.

I would really like to seek a clerkship, although at this point in time I am open to different possibilities based on how my experiences go in my first year. I am open to academia, and the Law and Philosophy program at UCLA sounds exciting to me (Philosophy Major undergrad).

LSAT score: 169 (second time around, got a 164 the first)
GPA: 3.35 (cumulative), 3.62 (degree, this was at UC Berkeley with a major in Philosophy and a minor in Anthropology). My GPA would be a 3.71 were it not for having gotten straight F’s in a single semester of community college (I retook the courses for straight A’s, but the F’s still counter per LSAC standards).

I figured the above explanations regarding LSAT and GPA just give a better picture. I imagine a 3.35 looks rather low for T14 schools?

My question, I guess, is if Duke (which seems to do better both in California and DC, particularly regarding Clerkships if I am reading http://www.lstscorereports.com/ correctly) is going to be worth sticker minus whatever need-based grant they throw my way?

I am looking at a difference of $26,553-$65,553 of extra debt for Duke. Is this worth it (even the high end, if we assume Duke provides $0 aid assign from loans?).

I really appreciate the input!

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Bronck
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Re: UCLA, GULC, or Duke?

Postby Bronck » Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:59 pm

While Duke may be the least bad option, none of these schools are worth those prices.

None of these schools will get you academia. Duke will be the strongest at getting you a clerkship, but your chances won't be very good for that either.

If you think you can score better on a third retake (e.g., if your PT scores were consistently higher than 169 on average), then do that. If not, then look to lower ranked schools with large scholarship packages and reevaluate your goals, or don't attend.

PRgradBYU
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Re: UCLA, GULC, or Duke?

Postby PRgradBYU » Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:49 pm

Bronck wrote:While Duke may be the least bad option, none of these schools are worth those prices.


TITCR. Retake or rethink lawl school, OP.

rad lulz
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Re: UCLA, GULC, or Duke?

Postby rad lulz » Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:50 pm

PRgradBYU wrote:
Bronck wrote:While Duke may be the least bad option, none of these schools are worth those prices.


TITCR. Retake or rethink lawl school, OP.

This

Ti Malice
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Re: UCLA, GULC, or Duke?

Postby Ti Malice » Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:22 pm

rad lulz wrote:
PRgradBYU wrote:
Bronck wrote:While Duke may be the least bad option, none of these schools are worth those prices.


TITCR. Retake or rethink lawl school, OP.

This

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Cobretti
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Re: UCLA, GULC, or Duke?

Postby Cobretti » Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:58 pm

If you're academia or bust you can forget law school since you can't get HYS with your GPA. However, if you'd be happy doing Big Law to pay down your debt then Duke @ Sticker is not a bad decision.

BigZuck
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Re: UCLA, GULC, or Duke?

Postby BigZuck » Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:26 pm

As basically everyone said, none of these schools are worth it at these prices. Gun to my head though I would pick Duke.

If you want to try to be an academic, get a PhD in Philisophy. You would be unlikely to get an actual job as an academic but that's the same if you tried to become an academic with a jd from one of these schools. The difference: they pay you, so you wouldn't have the life crippling debt.

If you really just want to be a lawyer I would probably go for a different (and much cheaper) set of schools.

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sublime
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Re: UCLA, GULC, or Duke?

Postby sublime » Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:42 pm

..

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ManoftheHour
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Re: UCLA, GULC, or Duke?

Postby ManoftheHour » Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:46 pm

Are those the prices before interest?

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hephaestus
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Re: UCLA, GULC, or Duke?

Postby hephaestus » Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:41 am

sublime wrote:Random question, but is getting to academia possible eventually from CCN or is it pretty strictly HYS?

Pretty strictly Y. HS are well removed from Y in tenure track hires.

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jbagelboy
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Re: UCLA, GULC, or Duke?

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:43 am

sublime wrote:Random question, but is getting to academia possible eventually from CCN or is it pretty strictly HYS?


It's definitely "possible" from most of the T14 schools, just unlikely and often for those who have PhDs in something else. In comparison to the number of law profs emerging from Yale and Harvard, the other schools simply pale on a per capita basis.

Of CCN, Chicago gives your best bet at both clerkships (a common route towards academic positions) and legal academia. I've met profs from UChicago at almost every school I visited, and they definitely place a higher emphasis on legal scholarship. I've seen a handful from CLS (several of which are now profs at Columbia), but none from NYU (not saying they are definitively weaker in academia, just that I haven't happened to observe it). So possible? Sure. Likely? No.

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Doorkeeper
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Re: UCLA, GULC, or Duke?

Postby Doorkeeper » Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:49 am

ImNoScar wrote:
sublime wrote:Random question, but is getting to academia possible eventually from CCN or is it pretty strictly HYS?

Pretty strictly Y. HS are well removed from Y in tenure track hires.

No.

Also, NYU has been making the hard push to get their grads into academia. Chicago has averaged 3-5 per year. It's certainly possible, but it's difficult.

Regarding the OP, one shouldn't be "interested" in academia. You have to position yourself well in law school if you want to pursue academia in the short to medium term.

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sublime
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Re: UCLA, GULC, or Duke?

Postby sublime » Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:00 am

..

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Bronck
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Re: UCLA, GULC, or Duke?

Postby Bronck » Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:27 am

sublime wrote:How does one do so? Obviously you need to be top of class at a top school, but is there anything specific?

Although I am not counting on Academia, I am interested in it if the opportunity were to present itself. I have somewhat of a research background (although more PhD style) if that makes a difference.


Getting notes published is pretty key. Clerking as well.

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jenesaislaw
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Re: UCLA, GULC, or Duke?

Postby jenesaislaw » Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:18 pm

Bronck wrote:
sublime wrote:How does one do so? Obviously you need to be top of class at a top school, but is there anything specific?

Although I am not counting on Academia, I am interested in it if the opportunity were to present itself. I have somewhat of a research background (although more PhD style) if that makes a difference.


Getting notes published is pretty key. Clerking as well.


Also key is that the current model of law school remain the same. It will not.

For those interested, read up on the VAP market this year. It's far more brutal than usual--and it's the new normal for at least a little while. The entry-level market is drying up, the lateral market is hit or miss, and most law schools are not even close to being in a position to hire and will (I think) hire people with practice experience instead.

All of this is to say: don't think about academia. At all.

bruin91
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Re: UCLA, GULC, or Duke?

Postby bruin91 » Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:38 pm

Cobretti wrote:If you're academia or bust you can forget law school since you can't get HYS with your GPA. However, if you'd be happy doing Big Law to pay down your debt then Duke @ Sticker is not a bad decision.


+1

rad lulz
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Re: UCLA, GULC, or Duke?

Postby rad lulz » Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:11 pm

jenesaislaw wrote:
Bronck wrote:
sublime wrote:How does one do so? Obviously you need to be top of class at a top school, but is there anything specific?

Although I am not counting on Academia, I am interested in it if the opportunity were to present itself. I have somewhat of a research background (although more PhD style) if that makes a difference.


Getting notes published is pretty key. Clerking as well.


Also key is that the current model of law school remain the same. It will not.

For those interested, read up on the VAP market this year. It's far more brutal than usual--and it's the new normal for at least a little while. The entry-level market is drying up, the lateral market is hit or miss, and most law schools are not even close to being in a position to hire and will (I think) hire people with practice experience instead.

All of this is to say: don't think about academia. At all.

Specifically look for an article on profsblawg called "VAP trap" and read the comments thereon

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sinfiery
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Re: UCLA, GULC, or Duke?

Postby sinfiery » Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:01 pm

bruin91 wrote:
Cobretti wrote:If you're academia or bust you can forget law school since you can't get HYS with your GPA. However, if you'd be happy doing Big Law to pay down your debt then Duke @ Sticker is not a bad decision.


+1




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