Duke with scholarship vs. NYU

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sinfiery
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Re: Duke with scholarship vs. NYU

Postby sinfiery » Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:42 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:
willwilliams1334 wrote:NYU is a great value if you want to be in NYC.


No it's not. NYU is objectively not worth sticker. $280k for a school that doesn't start with H, Y, or S? You must be joking.

HS are very close in value to NYU in NYC. Care to explain the why one and not the other for NYC?

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thelawyler
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Re: Duke with scholarship vs. NYU

Postby thelawyler » Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:45 pm

sinfiery wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
willwilliams1334 wrote:NYU is a great value if you want to be in NYC.


No it's not. NYU is objectively not worth sticker. $280k for a school that doesn't start with H, Y, or S? You must be joking.

HS are very close in value to NYU in NYC. Care to explain the why one and not the other for NYC?


Because he doesn't know wtf he's talking about.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Duke with scholarship vs. NYU

Postby rickgrimes69 » Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:50 pm

sinfiery wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
willwilliams1334 wrote:NYU is a great value if you want to be in NYC.


No it's not. NYU is objectively not worth sticker. $280k for a school that doesn't start with H, Y, or S? You must be joking.

HS are very close in value to NYU in NYC. Care to explain the why one and not the other for NYC?


Because 1) NYU's marginal advantage in placement over lower T14 with $$$ isn't worth the extra metric fuckton of loans you'd have to take out to attend at sticker, and 2) HYS has much better LRAP that basically mitigates all risk, not to mention they actually offer unique career opportunities which can make them worth the extra cost (for academia, clerkships, etc).

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Duke with scholarship vs. NYU

Postby rickgrimes69 » Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:54 pm

thelawyler wrote:
sinfiery wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
willwilliams1334 wrote:NYU is a great value if you want to be in NYC.


No it's not. NYU is objectively not worth sticker. $280k for a school that doesn't start with H, Y, or S? You must be joking.

HS are very close in value to NYU in NYC. Care to explain the why one and not the other for NYC?


Because he doesn't know wtf he's talking about.


Solid argument duder. Maybe explain why you think NYU is so special it's worth $3,300 in monthly loan payments for the next 10 years.

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sinfiery
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Re: Duke with scholarship vs. NYU

Postby sinfiery » Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:57 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:
sinfiery wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
willwilliams1334 wrote:NYU is a great value if you want to be in NYC.


No it's not. NYU is objectively not worth sticker. $280k for a school that doesn't start with H, Y, or S? You must be joking.

HS are very close in value to NYU in NYC. Care to explain the why one and not the other for NYC?


Because 1) NYU's marginal advantage in placement over lower T14 with $$$ isn't worth the extra metric fuckton of loans you'd have to take out to attend at sticker, and 2) HYS has much better LRAP that basically mitigates all risk, not to mention they actually offer unique career opportunities which can make them worth the extra cost (for academia, clerkships, etc).

1) isn't relevant. 2) is the LRAP vs PAYE difference that significant?

2b) For someone wanting NYC, I don't think those reasons matter much.

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Re: Duke with scholarship vs. NYU

Postby DorianGray89 » Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:17 pm

wlags wrote:Any other thoughts here? Deadline is today, def leaning Duke but choice is a little harder than I thought it would be..


What did you decide?

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Re: Duke with scholarship vs. NYU

Postby thelawyler » Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:10 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:
Solid argument duder. Maybe explain why you think NYU is so special it's worth $3,300 in monthly loan payments for the next 10 years.


The burden of persuasion is on you first.

But to keep it simple: because you have a 85%~ shot at making more than $13,000/year for the next 40 years. Which is pretty much similar to Harvard (at least for NYC). And even if you miss, NYU's LRAP is pretty fantastic, and they have a fairly great track record of placing people in PI jobs (even though internal surveys with a 98% participant rate show that of the LT/FT employment stats of around 95%, something like 90% got their first or second choice type of job. So few end up "resorting" to something like that). These aren't perfect stats, but if you know you want to be in NYC, to say it is not worth it is silly.

rickgrimes69 wrote:
sinfiery wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
willwilliams1334 wrote:NYU is a great value if you want to be in NYC.


No it's not. NYU is objectively not worth sticker. $280k for a school that doesn't start with H, Y, or S? You must be joking.

HS are very close in value to NYU in NYC. Care to explain the why one and not the other for NYC?


Because 1) NYU's marginal advantage in placement over lower T14 with $$$ isn't worth the extra metric fuckton of loans you'd have to take out to attend at sticker, and 2) HYS has much better LRAP that basically mitigates all risk, not to mention they actually offer unique career opportunities which can make them worth the extra cost (for academia, clerkships, etc).


1) NYU's advantage in placement is, in my opinion, more than marginal if you want NYC. What is "marginal" is maybe subjective and how badly you want to spend 3 years of the best years of your life in the boonies versus the #1 metropolis in the US.

2) Wait, is this argument framed for the worst case scenarios, or the very best? Regardless, your #2 point doesn't mean NYU isn't worth sticker - perhaps it just means that HYS is worth even more than sticker. One does not preclude the other.

Your turn.

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Re: Duke with scholarship vs. NYU

Postby willwilliams1334 » Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:25 am

The burden of persuasion is on you first.

But to keep it simple: because you have a 85%~ shot at making more than $13,000/year for the next 40 years. Which is pretty much similar to Harvard (at least for NYC). And even if you miss, NYU's LRAP is pretty fantastic, and they have a fairly great track record of placing people in PI jobs (even though internal surveys with a 98% participant rate show that of the LT/FT employment stats of around 95%, something like 90% got their first or second choice type of job. So few end up "resorting" to something like that). These aren't perfect stats, but if you know you want to be in NYC, to say it is not worth it is silly.

rickgrimes69 wrote:
sinfiery wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
willwilliams1334 wrote:NYU is a great value if you want to be in NYC.


No it's not. NYU is objectively not worth sticker. $280k for a school that doesn't start with H, Y, or S? You must be joking.

HS are very close in value to NYU in NYC. Care to explain the why one and not the other for NYC?


Because 1) NYU's marginal advantage in placement over lower T14 with $$$ isn't worth the extra metric fuckton of loans you'd have to take out to attend at sticker, and 2) HYS has much better LRAP that basically mitigates all risk, not to mention they actually offer unique career opportunities which can make them worth the extra cost (for academia, clerkships, etc).


1) NYU's advantage in placement is, in my opinion, more than marginal if you want NYC. What is "marginal" is maybe subjective and how badly you want to spend 3 years of the best years of your life in the boonies versus the #1 metropolis in the US.

2) Wait, is this argument framed for the worst case scenarios, or the very best? Regardless, your #2 point doesn't mean NYU isn't worth sticker - perhaps it just means that HYS is worth even more than sticker. One does not preclude the other.

Your turn.[/quote]

mugatu made my point for me. NYU is one of the best schools in the country for getting a truly elite job, in the heart of the greatest city in the world. and rickgrimes, you ignore the awesome placement of NYU in V10 firms, something that Duke CLEARLY cannot compare to.

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Re: Duke with scholarship vs. NYU

Postby rickgrimes69 » Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:35 am

thelawyler wrote:1) NYU's advantage in placement is, in my opinion, more than marginal if you want NYC. What is "marginal" is maybe subjective and how badly you want to spend 3 years of the best years of your life in the boonies versus the #1 metropolis in the US.

2) Wait, is this argument framed for the worst case scenarios, or the very best? Regardless, your #2 point doesn't mean NYU isn't worth sticker - perhaps it just means that HYS is worth even more than sticker. One does not preclude the other.


Your answer to #1 strangely implies that if you don't work in NYC you're working in the boonies. There are plenty of other solid legal markets out there, and plenty of people who don't want to work in NYC (myself included).

We can argue about what "marginal" means all day, but it sure looks marginal to me. Duke placed within 1% of NYU's big firm + fed clerkship placement last year, and slightly beat them the year before that. It's true that NYU places a lot more grads into P.I., but we have no way of knowing how much of that is in any way prestigious or desirable work. When you consider that NYU places over twice as many grads into school funded jobs than Duke, the placement advantage starts narrowing quick.

As for #2, my point was simply that HYS are really the only schools potentially worth sticker because (1) they offer unique career opportunities that might make it worth it for someone gunning for academia or an AIII clerkship, and (2) their excellent LRAP removes basically all risk, whereas some people still strike out at NYU and get debtpwned.

willwilliams1334 wrote:mugatu made my point for me. NYU is one of the best schools in the country for getting a truly elite job, in the heart of the greatest city in the world. and rickgrimes, you ignore the awesome placement of NYU in V10 firms, something that Duke CLEARLY cannot compare to.


So your argument is that OP should blow $100k for a better chance at DAT V10 PREFSTIGE? That's not even close to worth it IMO, but I guess if you're unnecessarily concerned about that sort of thing then sure go to NYU.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Duke with scholarship vs. NYU

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:30 am

One would have to gun pretty exclusively for V10 in order for NYU to be worth greater than say, $50k more than Duke. I would argue that's shortsighted (it doesn't matter where you go, you probably won't make V10) and excessively narrow (plenty of great firms outside V10).

I also have to question whether people who are gunning for V10 do so with any knowledge of the prestige of the firm, or are just going with the higher-ranked firm by default. Do you actually know anything about Skadden Arps or Cleary Gottlieb? Working at a V10 means you have a total compensation that isn't tremendously different (except for Wachtell) from DC/LA/SF/Chicago/Boston, you're liable to work slightly longer hours, and you face a higher tax burden and COL than anywhere else. So if you go to work at a V10, you should really love the work they do. But if you aren't sure (like 95% of law school appliicants), then go with the cheaper school. If you really want to be in NYC, Duke will do just fine.

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Re: Duke with scholarship vs. NYU

Postby JamMasterJ » Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:49 am

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:One would have to gun pretty exclusively for V10 in order for NYU to be worth greater than say, $50k more than Duke. I would argue that's shortsighted (it doesn't matter where you go, you probably won't make V10) and excessively narrow (plenty of great firms outside V10).

that's not how it works. It's not a V10 advantage, and then equality through the rest.

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Re: Duke with scholarship vs. NYU

Postby NYstate » Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:53 am

JamMasterJ wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:One would have to gun pretty exclusively for V10 in order for NYU to be worth greater than say, $50k more than Duke. I would argue that's shortsighted (it doesn't matter where you go, you probably won't make V10) and excessively narrow (plenty of great firms outside V10).

that's not how it works. It's not a V10 advantage, and then equality through the rest.

Seriously. Where do people come up with this stuff?

Firms in NYC will go lower into NYUs class than they will Duke.

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Re: Duke with scholarship vs. NYU

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:26 am

JamMasterJ wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:One would have to gun pretty exclusively for V10 in order for NYU to be worth greater than say, $50k more than Duke. I would argue that's shortsighted (it doesn't matter where you go, you probably won't make V10) and excessively narrow (plenty of great firms outside V10).

that's not how it works. It's not a V10 advantage, and then equality through the rest.

Yup. Far too much NYU hate on here from people who have seen the NLJ data and make unwarranted assumptions based on that alone.

The other thing is this: if, as many people continue to say, NYU is "objectively" not "worth" sticker, then neither is Duke. The cost of the two schools is not that different. NYC cost of living is overblown; you might have to make a couple of extra sacrifices you wouldn't in Durham, like having a longer commute, but then again, living in Durham is its own kind of sacrifice to a lot of people.

If the point is it's worth taking a scholarship at Duke over NYU at sticker, then sure that's a reasonable argument (though, again, I think NYU is better by a not-insignificant margin for NYC, at least, and possibly other markets). But NYU at sticker is not some categorically horrible decision—any more so than going anywhere at sticker.

ETA: It honestly doesn't matter for the majority of biglaw candidates whether or not they want to work in NYC. The jobs are in NYC. You can go to Duke and say you never want to live in NYC but when push comes to shove, you need to be bidding heavily on NYC jobs, and you're very likely to end up going there if you do go to a firm.

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Re: Duke with scholarship vs. NYU

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:50 am

JamMasterJ wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:One would have to gun pretty exclusively for V10 in order for NYU to be worth greater than say, $50k more than Duke. I would argue that's shortsighted (it doesn't matter where you go, you probably won't make V10) and excessively narrow (plenty of great firms outside V10).

that's not how it works. It's not a V10 advantage, and then equality through the rest.


I never said it was. I don't know what you thought I was implying. Just basically saying don't pick a school solely on the basis of V10 placement, it's not a smart thing to do because it's unreliable and not necessarily advantageous.

NYstate wrote: Firms in NYC will go lower into NYUs class than they will Duke.


I don't disagree. I'm not saying Duke > NYU, all else equal. I'm saying because the difference in NYC placement ability is not gigantic, your willigness to pay difference shouldn't be gigantic either. I would take NYU at a difference of between $30-45k.

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Re: Duke with scholarship vs. NYU

Postby rickgrimes69 » Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:04 am

dixiecupdrinking wrote:The other thing is this: if, as many people continue to say, NYU is "objectively" not "worth" sticker, then neither is Duke.


I agree with this. I thought I was pretty clear - I don't believe any school outside of HYS is worth sticker.

But NYU at sticker is not some categorically horrible decision—any more so than going anywhere at sticker.


See above. You're arguing against points that haven't been made. Nobody is arguing that NYU is a worse option at sticker than Duke - only that NYU at sticker is objectively bad.

ETA: It honestly doesn't matter for the majority of biglaw candidates whether or not they want to work in NYC. The jobs are in NYC. You can go to Duke and say you never want to live in NYC but when push comes to shove, you need to be bidding heavily on NYC jobs, and you're very likely to end up going there if you do go to a firm.


I also agree with this, but to a point. Everyone taking out debt needs to be aware that NYC Biglaw is the most likely outcome and be ok with it, but Duke tends to attract a relatively large number of people from secondary markets who want to go back home to work. Unlike NYU, whose sticker debt requires big-market biglaw to service, a lower T14 grad with $$$ who kept costs relatively low is more readily able to target lower paying secondary markets. It's just another way of looking at it for those who aren't NYC or bust.

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Re: Duke with scholarship vs. NYU

Postby willwilliams1334 » Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:14 pm

i bet v10 firms have really strong exit options

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Re: Duke with scholarship vs. NYU

Postby westphillybandr » Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:32 pm

sinfiery wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
willwilliams1334 wrote:NYU is a great value if you want to be in NYC.


No it's not. NYU is objectively not worth sticker. $280k for a school that doesn't start with H, Y, or S? You must be joking.

HS are very close in value to NYU in NYC. Care to explain the why one and not the other for NYC?

Lol. What is this nonsense?

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Re: Duke with scholarship vs. NYU

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:35 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:The other thing is this: if, as many people continue to say, NYU is "objectively" not "worth" sticker, then neither is Duke.


I agree with this. I thought I was pretty clear - I don't believe any school outside of HYS is worth sticker.

But NYU at sticker is not some categorically horrible decision—any more so than going anywhere at sticker.


See above. You're arguing against points that haven't been made. Nobody is arguing that NYU is a worse option at sticker than Duke - only that NYU at sticker is objectively bad.

ETA: It honestly doesn't matter for the majority of biglaw candidates whether or not they want to work in NYC. The jobs are in NYC. You can go to Duke and say you never want to live in NYC but when push comes to shove, you need to be bidding heavily on NYC jobs, and you're very likely to end up going there if you do go to a firm.


I also agree with this, but to a point. Everyone taking out debt needs to be aware that NYC Biglaw is the most likely outcome and be ok with it, but Duke tends to attract a relatively large number of people from secondary markets who want to go back home to work. Unlike NYU, whose sticker debt requires big-market biglaw to service, a lower T14 grad with $$$ who kept costs relatively low is more readily able to target lower paying secondary markets. It's just another way of looking at it for those who aren't NYC or bust.

That's fair. I guess I just think that NYU is often irrationally maligned on here. There is a lot of HYSC bullshit from people who have no idea what they're talking about. For OP here, I would agree that ~$75k from Duke probably makes it the better option, but I don't think it's as cut and dried as you do and I do think that for NYC biglaw NYU might give substantially better opportunities.

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Re: Duke with scholarship vs. NYU

Postby sinfiery » Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:38 pm

westphillybandr wrote:
sinfiery wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
willwilliams1334 wrote:NYU is a great value if you want to be in NYC.


No it's not. NYU is objectively not worth sticker. $280k for a school that doesn't start with H, Y, or S? You must be joking.

HS are very close in value to NYU in NYC. Care to explain the why one and not the other for NYC?

Lol. What is this nonsense?

My subtle way at poking someone who says NYU at sticker is an objectively bad decision.

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Re: Duke with scholarship vs. NYU

Postby wlags » Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:57 am

Thanks for the opinions everybody! Def some good discussion there. Tough choice for sure, but it looks like I'm gonna do NYU. Felt like it was basically a 50/50 choice and I have loved one's in the NY area so that tips it. Thanks again and good luck everybody.

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sinfiery
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Re: Duke with scholarship vs. NYU

Postby sinfiery » Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:55 am

It definitely wasnt 50/50 decision financialy, but NYC > north Carolina for sure imo. Oh well OP, just prepare yourself for all dat debt.

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Re: Duke with scholarship vs. NYU

Postby rickgrimes69 » Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:06 am

wlags wrote:Thanks for the opinions everybody! Def some good discussion there. Tough choice for sure, but it looks like I'm gonna do NYU. Felt like it was basically a 50/50 choice and I have loved one's in the NY area so that tips it. Thanks again and good luck everybody.


rickgrimes69 wrote:Have fun paying $3,300 a month in loan payments for the next ten years.

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Re: Duke with scholarship vs. NYU

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:18 am

rickgrimes69 wrote:
wlags wrote:Thanks for the opinions everybody! Def some good discussion there. Tough choice for sure, but it looks like I'm gonna do NYU. Felt like it was basically a 50/50 choice and I have loved one's in the NY area so that tips it. Thanks again and good luck everybody.


rickgrimes69 wrote:Have fun paying $3,300 a month in loan payments for the next ten years.


The only people who should pay 100k more for NYU than Duke are those who would have no debt anyway. I have no clue why OP came to this decision when literally every informed response suggested Duke. It really wasn't particularly close, IMO.

I assume people keep doing this because of excessive fixation on V10, because V10 placement is the only thing Columbia/NYU do that lower T14s don't in large numbers. It isn't a good reason to pay sticker over T14 $$.

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Re: Duke with scholarship vs. NYU

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:33 am

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
wlags wrote:Thanks for the opinions everybody! Def some good discussion there. Tough choice for sure, but it looks like I'm gonna do NYU. Felt like it was basically a 50/50 choice and I have loved one's in the NY area so that tips it. Thanks again and good luck everybody.


rickgrimes69 wrote:Have fun paying $3,300 a month in loan payments for the next ten years.


The only people who should pay 100k more for NYU than Duke are those who would have no debt anyway. I have no clue why OP came to this decision when literally every informed response suggested Duke. It really wasn't particularly close, IMO.

I assume people keep doing this because of excessive fixation on V10, because V10 placement is the only thing Columbia/NYU do that lower T14s don't in large numbers. It isn't a good reason to pay sticker over T14 $$.


"Meh". You're choosing to live in Charlottesville, Virginia for 3 years dude. Thats not a choice everyone could stomach. Sure debt sucks and professionally theres no way NYU places that much better, but at the end of the day, OP knows what sticker means and clearly is not concerned (I bet there are family assets in play). They want to be in NYC -- the reason they provided was specifically regional. Law school is somewhere you have to live for 3 years and to many, dixie is pretty lame and depressing.

wlags wrote:Thanks for the opinions everybody! Def some good discussion there. Tough choice for sure, but it looks like I'm gonna do NYU. Felt like it was basically a 50/50 choice and I have loved one's in the NY area so that tips it. Thanks again and good luck everybody.


This thread has all the typical BS we see every day. OP creates with a decision in hand due to outstanding personal factors, seeks validation of the choice, gets 3 pages of constructive feedback about why the opposite choice is correct and his/her choice is inane, which of course has no impact. You know perfectly well ITT it wasnt close to 50/50, come on. Then again, NYU is a great school and I dont fault you for staying with loves ones and wanting to live in the city. I made a similar choice (although Ill graduate at around HALF sticker debt). The fault lies in making the thread on false pretenses in the first place. Oh well, burying the hatchet.

Enjoy NYU and congrats on your decision!

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Re: Duke with scholarship vs. NYU

Postby BigZuck » Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:38 am

A whole page of butt hurt to help this dude reach a conclusion that was already foregone.

Thanks for nothing, OP




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