Harvard vs Michigan $$

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Harvard vs Michigan

Harvard
108
77%
Michigan
32
23%
 
Total votes: 140

CourCour
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Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$

Postby CourCour » Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:39 pm

Moving away from your SO and family is painfully difficult. I have dinner with my parents once a week. I'd probably marry my SO if I was staying up here. I decided to move 400 miles away over a reasonable but less exiciting opportunity close to home.

If you choose Michigan over Harvard its always going to be there, lingering, tension and resentment building. One day, in midst of a fight, it will burst out: "I chose you over Harvard!" Choosing a SO over Harvard Law School is way too much pressure for a relationship.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:52 pm

Bronte wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:"How Michigan went from Top 5 to having worse job prosects than DNC," Exhibit A.


Michigan was top 5 in U.S. News in 1987 for one year before U.S. News changed its rankings formula, dropping Michigan to the 7-10 range starting in 1988, where it's remained ever since. Likewise, Michigan's placement in NLJ 250 has been relatively consistent, given the fact that schools jump around on that thing from year to year like crazy.

Michigan is no Harvard, but there's no substantial distinctions between the schools you guys fuss over all day.


Michigan had a consistently better reputation than anyone sans Yale and Harvard consistently through the 1960s and early-to-mid-1970s. It faded before U.S. News came into play.

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Bronte
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Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$

Postby Bronte » Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:05 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Michigan had a consistently better reputation than anyone sans Yale and Harvard consistently through the 1960s and early-to-mid-1970s. It faded before U.S. News came into play.


Maybe that's true. Maybe that's an old bit of anti-Michigan-troll lore. But in any event, if it's true, I think we can both agree it qualifies as old news.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:18 pm

Bronte wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Michigan had a consistently better reputation than anyone sans Yale and Harvard consistently through the 1960s and early-to-mid-1970s. It faded before U.S. News came into play.


Maybe that's true. Maybe that's an old bit of anti-Michigan-troll lore. But in any event, if it's true, I think we can both agree it qualifies as old news.


Okay. The recent news is the speculation on what might happen given that Michigan's prospects already tanked harder than everyone else's for the Classes of 2011 and 2012. If OCI for the Classes of 2013 and 2014 were as disconcerting as was rumored, it might provide some consistency/significance to the notion that Michigan fell behind DNC in placement.

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Bronte
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Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$

Postby Bronte » Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:49 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Okay. The recent news is the speculation on what might happen given that Michigan's prospects already tanked harder than everyone else's for the Classes of 2011 and 2012. If OCI for the Classes of 2013 and 2014 were as disconcerting as was rumored, it might provide some consistency/significance to the notion that Michigan fell behind DNC in placement.


Yes, that's a different issue and a more convincing one. I suspect that the deviation is not statistically significant and that myopic 0Ls fixated on the most recent batch of rankings blow it way out of proportion, but we'll see. At various points from year to year schools post crappy NLJ scores or really high NLJ scores. In 2009's NLJ 250 rankings Michigan and Virginia were number 5 and 6 on NLJ. 0Ls loved them that year. This year Michigan and Virginia are near Georgetown, so 0Ls love to hate them. One just hopes you guys aren't taking this stuff too literally.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:00 pm

UVA c/o 2012 was ahead of both Michigan and Georgetown by a lot.

I'm wary of small sample size, but the drop was particularly poignant because Michigan wasn't just below DNC, they were WAY below them. They weren't even close to any other T13.

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Bronte
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Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$

Postby Bronte » Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:09 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:UVA c/o 2012 was ahead of both Michigan and Georgetown by a lot.

I'm wary of small sample size, but the drop was particularly poignant because Michigan wasn't just below DNC, they were WAY below them. They weren't even close to any other T13.


Michigan's percentage was 38.40%, placing 149 out of 388 students in NLJ 250 firms, and Virginia's was 42.30% placing 151 of 357 students in NLJ 250 firms. A difference of 3.90% and a handful of students. I don't know if I would call that "WAY below" the next "T13." And I don't know if I would rely on it to make any serious life decisions. NLJ rankings are a good source but not for these sort of granular distinctions.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:14 pm

Ti Malice wrote:
dennycrane59 wrote:Its just hard to justify the greater risk/uncertainty career prospects wise when I'll still have $100,000 in debt when all is said and done.

Uncertainty..
Michigan: 43.3% firm + 8.5% clerkship + 16% PI = 67.8%
Harvard: 53.6% firm + 17.8% clerkship + 11.4% PI = 82.8%


Thing is, the uncertainty gap is significantly greater than that. Rest assured that a lot more of Michigan's "PI" grads are doing low-end PI work compared to Harvard grads. High-end PI/gov't is barely hiring, and grads from YHS have a tremendous advantage there. Also, YHS students frequently go on to very lucrative non-legal careers (sometimes returning to the places they worked before law school) at places that strongly favor YHS JDs over any other school's JD, so the fact that a number of people from YHS take "JD advantage" jobs is not necessarily a negative. For YHS, the traditional assumptions about employment outcomes are much less applicable, and, accordingly, the LST percentages are a lot less informative.

Edit: grammar fail


Yea. Mckinsey alone pumps 5-7 of its associates through harvard law each year and one or two through CLS and helps w/ tuition so long as the grads return as senior consultants (jd preferred or business). I imagine BCG & Bain have some similar programs with YHS(C). These lucky people dont count in an LST metric even tho their job is ultimately just as (if not more) desirable.

BigZuck
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Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$

Postby BigZuck » Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:59 pm

Bronte wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:UVA c/o 2012 was ahead of both Michigan and Georgetown by a lot.

I'm wary of small sample size, but the drop was particularly poignant because Michigan wasn't just below DNC, they were WAY below them. They weren't even close to any other T13.


Michigan's percentage was 38.40%, placing 149 out of 388 students in NLJ 250 firms, and Virginia's was 42.30% placing 151 of 357 students in NLJ 250 firms. A difference of 3.90% and a handful of students. I don't know if I would call that "WAY below" the next "T13." And I don't know if I would rely on it to make any serious life decisions. NLJ rankings are a good source but not for these sort of granular distinctions.


62.1% in big law or federal clerkships versus 51.8%

That's a big difference, I don't know how you can spin that as close.

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Bronte
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Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$

Postby Bronte » Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:08 pm

BigZuck wrote:62.1% in big law or federal clerkships versus 51.8%

That's a big difference, I don't know how you can spin that as close.


We were talking about NLJ 250. But sure UVA did better last year on the data that LST reports. I'm just not sure that distinctions at this level can't be explained by random variation from year to year, self selection and geographic preferences of students, and other factors not reflected in these relatively crude data.

I'm a Michigan alumnus so I have a bias. There are posters who get obsessed with trolling against a particular school because they have a bias or simply like getting a rise out of people. And what a lot of posters that registered last month or last year don't know is that the schools that get bashed on TLS change from year to year. There were years when Cornell was always getting bashed and years when Berkeley was getting bashed, and now it's Michigan's turn.

BigZuck
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Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$

Postby BigZuck » Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:13 pm

Bronte wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I'm a Michigan alumnus so I have a bias.


And there we go.

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Bronte
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Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$

Postby Bronte » Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:32 pm

BigZuck wrote:
Bronte wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I'm a Michigan alumnus so I have a bias.


And there we go.


Sure, but my only point as that there's not that much difference between these T14 schools. Yes, even Georgetown. I'm not here trolling for Michigan or saying OP should chose it over Harvard.

If you're really concerned with my bias, take it from a poster who doesn't go to Michigan:

Desert Fox wrote:HYS CCN MVP DNCG are tiers were created to model the ACCEPTANCE patterns of the schools. Not the quality, and certainly not job prospects. It's also why Boalt isn't even assigned a place because it's got an unusual recruiting pattern and doesn't have a clear peer.

ALL of this shit was created by 21-23 year old aspies on princeton review web forums.

YHS isn't even a full thing. It's clearly better but not game-changing for most things. It's game changing for clerkships and academia, but outside of that, it's not all that different. Columbia and Harvard's ability to place into big law isn't substantially different.

CCN is less of a real distinction but there is a pattern here that makes it somewhat useful. NYC V20 take CCN students in large numbers year after year. If you want V5, V10 or even V20 in NYC, these schools are clearly better. These firms often have pretty stringent requirements for non T6, T14. There is also some self selection going on. A Chicago bro will take Jenner block over Debevoise, which might make NU and Michigan look worse in terms of vault rankings. But I think a real advantage at top firms exists for CCN.

But once you get outside these schools top third of the class, they aren't really better off than the rest of the T14. Do you think a Texas firm is going to say, fuck this Michigan grad with A- grades, I've got a U of C grad with A-/B+ grades? No.

So the CCN tier doesn't really make a huge difference in whether you get big law or not. It might increase your chances of V5 or V10 but when you are scarping the bottom of the NLJ350, it's not a benefit. How much value you'd wanna place on going to Debevoise over Jenner Block.

As for T10, it doesn't exist. Firms--outside of hometown favorites--don't really distinguish between lower T14 IN THE AGGREGATE. Some firms think NU is TTT, some firms don't recruit at Duke, and some firms love Michigan, but it all cancels out.

This is funny coming from me (since I pushed for t13 for the lulz for so long), but Georgetown is probably, at most, a half step behind other t14. A lot of their placement gap is due to weird DC jobs, DC market just being hard as fuck to get, and part time program. But, the size of the school definitely hurts their placement.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:45 pm

Using the NLJ 250 data without accounting for self-selection leads one to presume GULC places better than Yale. The notion is clearly flawed. Once self-selection is accounted for, Michigan students are whiffing pretty hard.

BigZuck
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Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$

Postby BigZuck » Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:56 pm

DF is a cool sociable bro and all but *needs source*

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sinfiery
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Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$

Postby sinfiery » Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:28 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Using the NLJ 250 data without accounting for self-selection leads one to presume GULC places better than Yale. The notion is clearly flawed. Once self-selection is accounted for, Michigan students are whiffing pretty hard.

There is no data to account for self selection so how does one exactly account for it?

thelawdoctor
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Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$

Postby thelawdoctor » Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:44 pm

Detroit Mercy.........cheaper rent. :wink:

BigZuck
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Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$

Postby BigZuck » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:07 pm

sinfiery wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Using the NLJ 250 data without accounting for self-selection leads one to presume GULC places better than Yale. The notion is clearly flawed. Once self-selection is accounted for, Michigan students are whiffing pretty hard.

There is no data to account for self selection so how does one exactly account for it?


Was wondering this myself

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:11 pm

sinfiery wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Using the NLJ 250 data without accounting for self-selection leads one to presume GULC places better than Yale. The notion is clearly flawed. Once self-selection is accounted for, Michigan students are whiffing pretty hard.

There is no data to account for self selection so how does one exactly account for it?


Sometimes via very debatable conjecture, educated guesses and anecdotes. Sometimes there are methods that we can suggest roughly approximate it. For example, we assume there to be no self-selection of unemployment or part-time employment. We assume nearly everyone would prefer Biglaw to Shitlaw or Midlaw, of those who work at firms. We assume those data that are more stable year-to-year are more likely to be products of self-selection than those that fluctuate wildly.

I don't see any reason to believe Michigan is particularly unique in self-selecting out of Biglaw. Therefore, given my null hypothesis, I'm suggesting there's decent reason to believe Michigan grads are whiffing.

thelawdoctor
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Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$

Postby thelawdoctor » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:23 pm

CourCour wrote:Moving away from your SO and family is painfully difficult. I have dinner with my parents once a week. I'd probably marry my SO if I was staying up here. I decided to move 400 miles away over a reasonable but less exiciting opportunity close to home.

If you choose Michigan over Harvard its always going to be there, lingering, tension and resentment building. One day, in midst of a fight, it will burst out: "I chose you over Harvard!" Choosing a SO over Harvard Law School is way too much pressure for a relationship.

why can't the SO move?

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Bronte
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Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$

Postby Bronte » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:23 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Sometimes via very debatable conjecture, educated guesses and anecdotes. Sometimes there are methods that we can suggest roughly approximate it. For example, we assume there to be no self-selection of unemployment or part-time employment. We assume nearly everyone would prefer Biglaw to Shitlaw or Midlaw, of those who work at firms. We assume those data that are more stable year-to-year are more likely to be products of self-selection than those that fluctuate wildly.

I don't see any reason to believe Michigan is particularly unique in self-selecting out of Biglaw. Therefore, given my null hypothesis, I'm suggesting there's decent reason to believe Michigan grads are whiffing.


If you take as an article of faith that HYS should be the top three schools, which is probably correct, then the fact that NLJ data tend not to put these schools at the top of list counsels against an over-literal reliance on the NLJ data. Your original statement that "Yale is better than GULC when you correct for self-selection, thus Michigan sucks" is an irredeemable non sequitur.

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sinfiery
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Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$

Postby sinfiery » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:28 pm

I agree with your point of using year over year data to best determine self selection. (though still not perfect, it is something)
http://www.top-law-schools.com/archives ... =2&t=61206


Michigan has always been a step behind in NLJ rankings. Were their grads wiffing in the glorious preITE economy or is there self selection at play? Maybe firms in certain geographic locations have less need to be so large or something.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:55 pm

Bronte wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Sometimes via very debatable conjecture, educated guesses and anecdotes. Sometimes there are methods that we can suggest roughly approximate it. For example, we assume there to be no self-selection of unemployment or part-time employment. We assume nearly everyone would prefer Biglaw to Shitlaw or Midlaw, of those who work at firms. We assume those data that are more stable year-to-year are more likely to be products of self-selection than those that fluctuate wildly.

I don't see any reason to believe Michigan is particularly unique in self-selecting out of Biglaw. Therefore, given my null hypothesis, I'm suggesting there's decent reason to believe Michigan grads are whiffing.


If you take as an article of faith that HYS should be the top three schools, which is probably correct, then the fact that NLJ data tend not to put these schools at the top of list counsels against an over-literal reliance on the NLJ data. Your original statement that "Yale is better than GULC when you correct for self-selection, thus Michigan sucks" is an irredeemable non sequitur.


I never referenced the NLJ data. I believe its only reliable usage is determining the minimum percentage of grads getting good jobs. The LST data are better--not without their own flaws, but better.




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