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Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$
Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 11:42 am
by PRgradBYU
Harvard.
/thread
Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$
Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:49 pm
by dennycrane59
Thanks for the advice all. I'm going to attempt to negotiate something closer to a full-ride so that this decision becomes slightly less irrational from a career standpoint (I know.. still wouldnt be optimal/rational). Up in the air but leaning Michigan (I don't ignore the wisdom of TLS lightly but there are strong personal circumstances that I won't go into on a forum).
So the majority opinion seems to be that Harvard trumps michigan by a mile even with my secondary market goals. I guess my follow up question is.. Given that Michigan is the sub-optimal choice, how sub-optimal is it? To break into ohio big/mid law is it a difference of top 35% at Michigan vs top 60% at Harvard or is it closer to top 20% at michigan vs top 75% at harvard? I know the data is probably not there to get a clearcut answer (at least I haven't been able to find any statistics precise enough to compare) but does anyone have first-hand experience succesfully coming back to a midwest secondary markets from Harvard or going there from Michigan? Where were you in your class?
Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$
Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:20 pm
by Monochromatic Oeuvre
It really doesn't matter where you are in the country, a Harvard degree always trumps a local degree (unless your local degree is from New Haven or Palo Alto).
A lot of people, myself included, are of the opinion that Michigan is doing an increasingly poor job of placing its graduates into high-paying jobs. Only 45% of its graduates placed into Biglaw or federal clerkships last year. Being a median student there is not the guarantee it once was. On the contrary, at Harvard, probably 80-90% is finding good work. It's just really hard to miss from there.
Compare the
Michigan data with the
Harvard data. The difference is huge.
Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$
Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:27 pm
by KingofSplitters55
So Michigan gives you 5k more a year to take you away from Harvard...lolwhut.
Harvard. Easy.
Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$
Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:28 pm
by Dr. Dre
KingofSplitters55 wrote:So Michigan gives you 5k more a year to take you away from Harvard...lolwhut.
Harvard. Easy.
Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$
Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:31 pm
by Shooter
I don't know what your personal circumstances are, obviously, but please do not take Michigan over Harvard because of your SO.
Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$
Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:35 pm
by jselson
KingofSplitters55 wrote:So Michigan gives you 5k more a year to take you away from Harvard...lolwhut.
Harvard. Easy.
Seriously.
Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$
Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:43 pm
by bruin91
jselson wrote:KingofSplitters55 wrote:So Michigan gives you 5k more a year to take you away from Harvard...lolwhut.
Harvard. Easy.
Seriously.
+2000. OP, you need to take Harvard here. Michigan is being extremely stingy with you and is not worth it.
Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$
Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:47 pm
by untar614
Shooter wrote:I don't know what your personal circumstances are, obviously, but please do not take Michigan over Harvard because of your SO.
S/he's insanely rich and will leave you if you go to Harvard? But yeah, anything short of that and not taking Harvard would be silly.
(unless you're just incredibly nice and want to give your spot to me)
Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$
Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:58 pm
by jbagelboy
dennycrane59 wrote:Thanks for the advice all. I'm going to attempt to negotiate something closer to a full-ride so that this decision becomes slightly less irrational from a career standpoint (I know.. still wouldnt be optimal/rational). Up in the air but leaning Michigan (I don't ignore the wisdom of TLS lightly but there are strong personal circumstances that I won't go into on a forum).
So the majority opinion seems to be that Harvard trumps michigan by a mile even with my secondary market goals. I guess my follow up question is.. Given that Michigan is the sub-optimal choice, how sub-optimal is it? To break into ohio big/mid law is it a difference of top 35% at Michigan vs top 60% at Harvard or is it closer to top 20% at michigan vs top 75% at harvard? I know the data is probably not there to get a clearcut answer (at least I haven't been able to find any statistics precise enough to compare) but does anyone have first-hand experience succesfully coming back to a midwest secondary markets from Harvard or going there from Michigan? Where were you in your class?
Sorry, but this just reinforces everything I thought about your first post. No one reasonable will support a decision to got to Michigan. You are just trying to justify your bad decision with strangers on the internet whose constructive advice you will continue to ignore regardless. If your going to Michigan anyway, your questions in a vacuum regarding suboptimality in the face of very compelling data are erroneous and at best anecdotal
Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$
Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 2:08 pm
by willwilliams1334
you need to be more specific with your personal reasons in order to justify this
Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$
Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 2:13 pm
by BigZuck
willwilliams1334 wrote:you need to be more specific with your personal reasons in order to justify this
Or not. I mean, we are just a bunch of Internet losers, the OP doesn't have to justify anything to us.
But the only logical choice here is Harvard. No one should pass on it at these prices without some SERIOUS personal reasons for NEEDING to do so.
Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$
Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:25 pm
by Monochromatic Oeuvre
jbagelboy wrote: Sorry, but this just reinforces everything I thought about your first post. No one reasonable will support a decision to got to Michigan. You are just trying to justify your bad decision with strangers on the internet whose constructive advice you will continue to ignore regardless. If your going to Michigan anyway, your questions in a vacuum regarding suboptimality in the face of very compelling data are erroneous and at best anecdotal
+1
OP, I don't know what your "personal reasons" are, but 90% of the time this turns out to be "But I really love my boyfriend/girlfriend and he/she will be closer to School X." This is almost always a terrible reason to pick one law school over another. You want to go to Michigan because you value some short-term aspect of your life over the best long-term decision (Harvard and it isn't close). You post this hoping to find a bunch of people who would tell you Michigan, and when they didn't, you claim to nonetheless be leaning Michigan for reasons that apparently a bunch of other twentysomethings who all made/will make the same kind of decision you're making wouldn't understand.
If you still want to go to Michigan regardless, none of us are going to lose sleep over it. If you wanted to find a bunch of yes men to back you, then I guess there's nothing more to add. But if you actually want some help, (presumably, this is why the average person would post such a thread) you need to elaborate on why you're still leaning Michigan when every possible rational consideration would tell you to go to Harvard without blinking. You'd need a damn good reason to go to Michigan--so that's what I'm asking. Do you have a damn good reason? I realize you "won't go into" whatever your situation is, but realize a) You don't really need to hide anything, because no one here knows you or could possibly judge you for anything you say, and b) Without elaboration, everyone has to assume your personal reasons are an SO close to Michigan, which is way more often regretted as a decision-making factor than not.
If you really want TLS's help, then tell us why you're going to Michigan for $15k over mothereffing Harvard when no one else can possibly think of a reason for doing so. If you don't actually want help, then go to Ann Arbor knowing no one else in your position would have made the decision you did.
Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$
Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:45 pm
by TooOld4This
$60k extra in loans for prestige OP doesn't need? Push Mochigan for more money, but I would take Michigan. $150k in loans vs $90k is significant enough to think about what your end game is. Working in the MI/OH area with an eventual eye towards PI means Michigan is plenty of fire power.
Now OP, if you think you actually might like the bright lights, big city life style at some point, then maybe it is worth the extra $60k. But if you really know what opportunities you are making more difficult and are comfortable with that, then you aren't crazy to take Michigan.
Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$
Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:51 pm
by Ti Malice
TooOld4This wrote:$60k extra in loans for prestige OP doesn't need? Push Mochigan for more money, but I would take Michigan. $150k in loans vs $90k is significant enough to think about what your end game is. Working in the MI/OH area with an eventual eye towards PI means Michigan is plenty of fire power.
Now OP, if you think you actually might like the bright lights, big city life style at some point, then maybe it is worth the extra $60k. But if you really know what opportunities you are making more difficult and are comfortable with that, then you aren't crazy to take Michigan.
Downside protection is far greater with Harvard, and Harvard's LIPP is better than Michigan's LRAP. Harvard over Michigan is a no-brainer here.
Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$
Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:19 pm
by sinfiery
Can anyone speak to the Cleveland market in relation to UMich?
Clearly HLS is the better choice here but I don't think there is a huge gap between HLS and a home market t14.
If OP has personal reasons that make Mich more desirable for 3 years and UMich feeds into the market he wants (no idea if they do), it isn't the worse thing to take Mich. Obviously, try to get a full ride tho.
Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$
Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:23 am
by TooOld4This
Ti Malice wrote:TooOld4This wrote:$60k extra in loans for prestige OP doesn't need? Push Mochigan for more money, but I would take Michigan. $150k in loans vs $90k is significant enough to think about what your end game is. Working in the MI/OH area with an eventual eye towards PI means Michigan is plenty of fire power.
Now OP, if you think you actually might like the bright lights, big city life style at some point, then maybe it is worth the extra $60k. But if you really know what opportunities you are making more difficult and are comfortable with that, then you aren't crazy to take Michigan.
Downside protection is far greater with Harvard, and Harvard's LIPP is better than Michigan's LRAP. Harvard over Michigan is a no-brainer here.
This degree of risk aversion/prestige seeking is what causes people to blow off good advice on this site. The downside risks for OPs goals are not that high. Michigan's reputation in his desired market is nearly as great as Harvard's. He will be able to network while in school.
Throwing an extra $60k at a problem that is not likely to exist shouldn't be an /thread decision. The much more likely concern is figuring out how to adjust your lifestyle to pay back the extra loan money. (and for someone who has marriage/family in the possible near future, this is not an insignificant concern)
Now I'm not saying that people who would take Harvard in these circumstances are crazy. But the view that this is the "safest" course is both extremely risk averse and focuses on only one type of risk. That's fine and what lots of people are most comfortable with (especially people who have never been on the loan paying side of things) but it doesn't make every other analysis crazy. This is not Cooley (or even ND) vs Harvard or Michigan at $200k vs Harvard at $250k. Michigan at $90k is a good enough deal that Harvard is the obvious choice only if OP wants those opportunities that are unique to Harvard. That does not seem to be the case here.
OP, I will say, though, that if you have even the slightest concern that your relationship will not be for the long haul, and if you were to find yourself single that you might want to head to one of the coasts/go for BigLaw/chase legal unicorns that you think really hard about passing up Harvard. Keeping more doors open is one of the things Harvard does buy you.
Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$
Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:50 am
by Monochromatic Oeuvre
TooOld4This wrote: This degree of risk aversion/prestige seeking is what causes people to blow off good advice on this site. The downside risks for OPs goals are not that high. Michigan's reputation in his desired market is nearly as great as Harvard's. He will be able to network while in school.
Throwing an extra $60k at a problem that is not likely to exist shouldn't be an /thread decision. The much more likely concern is figuring out how to adjust your lifestyle to pay back the extra loan money. (and for someone who has marriage/family in the possible near future, this is not an insignificant concern)
Now I'm not saying that people who would take Harvard in these circumstances are crazy. But the view that this is the "safest" course is both extremely risk averse and focuses on only one type of risk. That's fine and what lots of people are most comfortable with (especially people who have never been on the loan paying side of things) but it doesn't make every other analysis crazy. This is not Cooley (or even ND) vs Harvard or Michigan at $200k vs Harvard at $250k. Michigan at $90k is a good enough deal that Harvard is the obvious choice only if OP wants those opportunities that are unique to Harvard. That does not seem to be the case here.
OP, I will say, though, that if you have even the slightest concern that your relationship will not be for the long haul, and if you were to find yourself single that you might want to head to one of the coasts/go for BigLaw/chase legal unicorns that you think really hard about passing up Harvard. Keeping more doors open is one of the things Harvard does buy you.
Harvard in his desired market > Michigan. Harvard eveywhere else >>> Michigan. That's what it comes down to.
If OP only wants to go Baker Hostetler, I'm sure he can do that from UM. But he needs to be above median to do that, whereas at Harvard he could be well below median and still go.
Even then your post presumes there's a 100% chance that that's his goal. What if, heaven forbid, a twentysomething only really thought short-term and decided to change his mind once he learned a little more? In that case, he can't do half the things with a Michigan degree than with a Harvard degree. At a cost differential of $60k, OP would have to be more confident about his decision than anyone can possibly be, and even that would only make it
slightly in favor of Harvard. Assuming OP is an average guy, this is Harvard by a lot.
Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$
Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:03 am
by wisdom
Harvard is the better choice here. Even assuming that Harvard and Michigan place with equal strength into Cleveland, it's a small market and not a mortal lock for any applicant, not even an HLS student with solid grades. Only in NYC and maybe DC/SF/LA can a person with good grades guarantee that they'll get something, simply because there are so many law firms and so many entry-level/first-year associate positions. Regional markets may actually be more competitive (and are certainly more ties-driven -- obviously OP has these, but even these aren't a guarantee).
In other words, I don't think the gamble here is: 100% chance of getting OH big law out of Michigan vs. 100% of getting OH big law out of Harvard, so pick the one that's cheaper. You want a degree where you can end up at median or below and still get a good job in a major legal market, even if you just work that job for a few years while exploring lateral opportunities to return to OH.
Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$
Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:10 am
by NYstate
OP: I am debt averse. You should go to Harvard. Every upside for your future career is there. The $60,000 difference is worth it. You aren't throwing money at a problem, you are protecting yourself by greatly expanding your options.
Do you have any idea how tiny the market you want to work in will be? There aren't many jobs there. Going to Harvard will help you be competitive for those jobs.
You have an easier chance of getting what you want from Harvard and much, much better protection if things go wrong. You cannot assume you will get a biglaw job in any one competitive secondary market. You need to be sure you will get a job after school. Harvard greatly increases your chances.
Also, it isn't just 0Ls who are prestiged obsessed. All of biglaw is prestiged obsessed. Michigan is not close to Harvard in the prestige game. Harvard will win the prestige battle every time.
Be careful OP. try to take advice from people who understand how terrible the job market remains. All the lists and percentage chances don't matter if you strike out. Striking out at Michigan is a real possibility compared to Harvard.
Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$
Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:33 am
by dixiecupdrinking
NYstate wrote:Do you have any idea how tiny the market you want to work in will be? There aren't many jobs there. Going to Harvard will help you be competitive for those jobs.
I think this is the crux of it. If you really want to work in those markets, you'll need every little advantage. (I'll say though that I don't know anything about how people in Ohio view these schools; it's possible some folks would be suspicious of someone who turned down the best school in the region to go to Harvard.) Even more, though, you need to have a backup plan. You might not be very interested in NY, DC or Chicago but you may not be able to go work in Columbus or Cleveland right out of school, even from Harvard. And Harvard will give you a better shot at a lot of your next best options.
Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$
Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:35 am
by Hutz_and_Goodman
Michigan with a full ride would not be irrational. Michigan here would be. They will probably will give you a lot more if they know you're serious about attending. The location of family and SO is very relevant to this decision, but it would be insane to pick Michigan over Harvard without a big $ difference.
By the way if you want to work in the Midwest a Michigan degree will go a long way (assuming you don't have bad grades).
Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$
Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:10 am
by Peyton
To OP: What I do not understand, why Mich hasn’t enthusiastically said yes to a full ride? Your score certainly warrants it.
Given the drop in legal applications Mich should be all over you. Then there’s Michigan's steady decline in the rakings (which doesn’t affect you one way or the other) but it potentially affects Mich…. considering the rankings game that all the schools play, Mich needs you in their classroom.
Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$
Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:48 am
by Real Madrid
You aren't going to really get an answer other than Harvard on this forum. But at the end of the day, it's your decision to make, and if you believe your personal circumstances warrant choosing Michigan over Harvard in this case, then do it. It's your life to live - just make sure you're willing to live with the consequences, whatever they may be.
Re: Harvard vs Michigan $$
Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:50 am
by Real Madrid
Peyton wrote:To OP: What I do not understand, why Mich hasn’t enthusiastically said yes to a full ride? Your score certainly warrants it.
Given the drop in legal applications Mich should be all over you. Then there’s Michigan's steady decline in the rakings (which doesn’t affect you one way or the other) but it potentially affects Mich…. considering the rankings game that all the schools play, Mich needs you in their classroom.
Yeah, going from 10 last year to 9 this year is quite the steady decline. Then there's the fact they've never been outside the top ten. But whatever.