How much is it worth? T-14 Edition Forum

DEO3029 · Post by **DEO3029** » Tue May 28, 2013 7:27 pm

On TLS, I feel like there are tons of posts that compare different T-14 schools on the basis of total cost. For instance, School A isn't worth $100k more than School B or School C isn't worth $50k more than School B.

I am certainly far from an authority on evaluating Law Schools but I was curious what value TLSers attribute to each of the T-14 schools. In other words, what would it actually make sense to pay for each school.

Y - $------
S - $------
H - $------
C - $------
C - $------
N - $------
P - $------
V - $------
B - $------
M - $------
D - $------
N - $------
C - $------
G - $------

RhymesLikeDimes · Post by **RhymesLikeDimes** » Tue May 28, 2013 8:44 pm

Listing amount of merit aid I would want in order to attend each; it's just easier for me to put together that way.

Y - Sticker
S - Sticker
H - Sticker
*** I would need a full-ride to CCN to even consider passing up HYS.

C - $30K
C - $60K
N - $60K
P - $75K
V - $100K
B - $100K
M - $120K
D - $120K
N - $120K
C - $120K
G - Full-ride + stipend + a harem

jbagelboy · Post by **jbagelboy** » Tue May 28, 2013 8:46 pm

I see what you're going for, but since it varies by goals, geographic preference, method of payment (parents/savings/ect.), ect. I'm not sure any one figure could describe the value of a JD from these schools.

FWIW I think sticker at YHS, $200-225K (or maybe sticker under certain conditions) at CCNP, and $150K or below at the rest. this is only my opinion and I do not intend to represent any collective wisdom

jbagelboy · Post by **jbagelboy** » Tue May 28, 2013 8:46 pm

RhymesLikeDimes wrote:Listing amount of merit aid I would want in order to attend each; it's just easier for me to put together that way.

Y - Sticker
S - Sticker
H - Sticker
*** I would need a full-ride to CCN to even consider passing up HYS.

C - $30K
C - $60K
N - $60K
P - $75K
V - $100K
B - $100K
M - $120K
D - $120K
N - $120K
C - $120K
G - Full-ride + stipend + a harem

I think you quoted acceptable scholarship figures, not what one would be willing to pay.

Justin Genious · Post by **Justin Genious** » Tue May 28, 2013 8:54 pm

This depends on career goals. Personally, I want NYC Biglaw and the following is what I'd pay--total COA--based on that.

Y - $150k
S - $150k
H - $150k
C - $115k
C - $115k
N - $115k
P - $100k (based on recent employment numbers)
V - $90k
B - $65k (from what I've read, Boalt doesn't place as well as it's peers in NYC)
M - $65k (recent employment numbers scare me)
D - $90k
N - $90k
C - $90k
G - wouldn't attend

Monochromatic Oeuvre · Post by **Monochromatic Oeuvre** » Tue May 28, 2013 9:00 pm

First, as to what it would make sense to pay, the right answer is "as little as possible." They're all worth sticker debt. If that's your worst case scenario, your life isn't exactly awful.

As to the relative value of each school? This is going to vary wildly for each applicant. How debt-averse are you? What sort of financial situation do you anticipate being in? Do you want Biglaw, PI, a clerkship, government, business, something else? Do you want to practice in New York, California, DC, Chicago, or somewhere else? What particular speciality are you focused on? Do you want a bigger or smaller class? What kind of student culture do you want? What kind of weather can you tolerate? How important is it to be close to home? There are probably dozens of other questions I'm not thinking of. This makes it impossible to slap a dollar value on each school like they're used cars. Each school is going to mean something different to each applicant, so I can give you my answers, but they're not going to be representative, or even anything like, someone else's answers.

Just so you know my bias, I'm Charlottesville-bound (with $$) with ties to Georgetown, and I've been accused of being a Berkeley-hater, and not sufficiently appreciative of Stanford. But since I made pretty much the exact comparisons you're asking for, I'm willing to share. (Please, for the love of God, nobody start an argument over these. Just my opinion. Not gospel or to be taken as valid in any manner). Here was my chart--All schools for comparative purposes are at sticker, it descends in rank order (so I would attend all the listed above at sticker as well). The money levels listed are the "break-even" points wherein I feel the two schools are making a competitive offer, so anything above favors the accompanying school. It's also done in a formulaic manner, wherein my preferences are quantitatively scored, thus the break-even amount is not necessarily an amount the school actually offers. Also, as I never considered applying outside the T14, I can't give you any data beyound it. I tried to make this a bit more objective, but it's obviously still chock-full of my own biases.

1. Yale--(That's it. There is no scholarship for which I'd give up Yale.)
2. Harvard--Columbia $135k, Chicago $135k, NYU $150k
3. Stanford--Columbia $95k, Chicago $95k, NYU $115k, Virginia $135k, Penn $135k, Michigan $150k
4. Columbia--Chicago $0 (coin flip), NYU $12.5k, Virginia $20k, Penn $20k, Michigan $35k, Berkeley $45k, Duke $65k, Northwestern $65k, Cornell $110k, Georgetown $110k
5. Chicago---NYU $12.5k, Virginia $20k, Penn $20k, Michigan $35k, Berkeley $45k, Duke $65k, Northwestern $65k, Cornell $110k, Georgetown $110k
6. NYU--UVA $10k, Penn $10k, Michigan $25k, Berkeley $35k, Duke $45k, Northwestern $45k, Cornell $95k, Georgetown $95k
7. UVA--Penn $0 (coin flip), Michigan $10k, Berkeley $20k, Duke $35k, Northwestern $35k, Cornell $75k, Georgetown $75k
8. Penn-- Michigan $10k, Berkeley $20k, Duke $35k, Northwestern $35k, Cornell $75k, Georgetown $75k
9. Michigan--Berkeley $10k, Duke $20k, Northwestern $20k, Cornell $60k, Georgetown $60k
10. Berkeley--Duke $10k, Northwestern $10k, Cornell $45k, Georgetown $45k
11. Duke--Northwestern $0 coin flip, Cornell $35k, Georgetown $35k
12. Northwestern--Cornell $35k, Georgetown $35k
13. Cornell--Georgetown $0 (coin flip)
14. Georgetown--(I really don't know enough about the rest, sorry)

Micdiddy · Post by **Micdiddy** » Tue May 28, 2013 9:06 pm

Justin Genious wrote:This depends on career goals. Personally, I want NYC Biglaw and the following is what I'd pay--total COA--based on that.

Y - $150k
S - $150k
H - $150k
C - $115k
C - $115k
N - $115k
P - $100k (based on recent employment numbers)
V - $90k
B - $65k (from what I've read, Boalt doesn't place as well as it's peers in NYC)
M - $65k (recent employment numbers scare me)
D - $90k
N - $90k
C - $90k
G - wouldn't attend

Really? You would not attend Georgetown full ride+stipend if it was your only option? Also, you would only attend Berkeley and Mich full ride? I'm debt averse, but if those were my only options I would still consider them great choices.

bananasplit19 · Post by **bananasplit19** » Tue May 28, 2013 9:12 pm

This could yield interesting responses, but I hope that's all you'll take them as; even if you had a sample size large enough (say, all of TLS), it would be impossible to combine them into an objectively "right" set of numbers because, as people have noted, each person has extraordinarily wide variances in terms of what they value. For example, here's what I suspect the numbers would be for a trust fund kid with family money, who was sexually assaulted by the Stanford tree when he was little:

Y - sticker
S - would not attend
H - sticker
C - sticker
C - sticker
N - sticker
P - sticker
V - sticker
B - sticker
M - sticker
D - sticker
N - sticker
C - sticker
G - sticker

An extreme example, of course, but still a perfectly valid response. Ultimately, not helpful by itself, or in conjunction with other responses.

ETA: Sexual assault by the Stanford tree is purely hypothetical.

Justin Genious · Post by **Justin Genious** » Tue May 28, 2013 9:14 pm

Micdiddy wrote:
Justin Genious wrote:This depends on career goals. Personally, I want NYC Biglaw and the following is what I'd pay--total COA--based on that.

Y - $150k
S - $150k
H - $150k
C - $115k
C - $115k
N - $115k
P - $100k (based on recent employment numbers)
V - $90k
B - $65k (from what I've read, Boalt doesn't place as well as it's peers in NYC)
M - $65k (recent employment numbers scare me)
D - $90k
N - $90k
C - $90k
G - wouldn't attend
Really? You would not attend Georgetown full ride+stipend if it was your only option? Also, you would only attend Berkeley and Mich full ride? I'm debt averse, but if those were my only options I would still consider them great choices.

Just over 42% biglaw+clerkship for GT is not worth that risk for me. Berk and Mich are great but I'd rather pay 25-35k more for PVDNC for a, presumably, better shot at NYC biglaw. Of course, if Boalt and Michigan full-ride were my only choices I'd definitely go--never said I wouldn't.

Monochromatic Oeuvre · Post by **Monochromatic Oeuvre** » Tue May 28, 2013 9:17 pm

bananasplit19 wrote:This could yield interesting responses, but I hope that's all you'll take them as; even if you had a sample size large enough (say, all of TLS), it would be impossible to combine them into an objectively "right" set of numbers because, as people have noted, each person has extraordinarily wide variances in terms of what they value. For example, here's what I suspect the numbers would be for a trust fund kid with family money, who was sexually assaulted by the Stanford tree when he was little:

Y - sticker
S - would not attend
H - sticker
C - sticker
C - sticker
N - sticker
P - sticker
V - sticker
B - sticker
M - sticker
D - sticker
N - sticker
C - sticker
G - sticker

An extreme example, of course, but still a perfectly valid response. Ultimately, not helpful by itself, or in conjunction with other responses.

ETA: Sexual assault by the Stanford tree is purely hypothetical.

How could you out me like that, man? They told me to "Fear the Tree", why didn't I listen? I was so naive in my youth.

rickgrimes69 · Post by **rickgrimes69** » Tue May 28, 2013 9:31 pm

This question is stupid and this thread is pointless. Everybody's goals are different so there's no way to make an objective determination regarding what each school is "worth". Somebody lock this before it devolves into the typical shitshow.

sinfiery · Post by **sinfiery** » Tue May 28, 2013 9:34 pm

I'd attend in this order:
Stanford: 400k COA
Yale: 325k COA
Harvard: 300k COA
CCN: 280k coa
B: 275k
MVPNVD: 250k COA
Gtown: 215k

I want a biglaw job that will eventually get me an in-house gig at Google or Microsoft

Thread is pretty silly, agreed.

Monochromatic Oeuvre · Post by **Monochromatic Oeuvre** » Tue May 28, 2013 9:50 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:Somebody lock this before it devolves into the typical shitshow.

Motion for a script to post this on every thread on TLS.

Gunnar Stahl · Post by **Gunnar Stahl** » Tue May 28, 2013 9:56 pm

sinfiery wrote:I want a biglaw job that will eventually get me an in-house gig at Google or Microsoft

You and everyone else.

isuperserial · Post by **isuperserial** » Tue May 28, 2013 9:59 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
RhymesLikeDimes wrote:Listing amount of merit aid I would want in order to attend each; it's just easier for me to put together that way.

Y - Sticker
S - Sticker
H - Sticker
*** I would need a full-ride to CCN to even consider passing up HYS.

C - $30K
C - $60K
N - $60K
P - $75K
V - $100K
B - $100K
M - $120K
D - $120K
N - $120K
C - $120K
G - Full-ride + stipend + a harem
I think you quoted acceptable scholarship figures, not what one would be willing to pay.

I am pretty sure he says he would pay a harem for Georgetown.

http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3ume17/

sinfiery · Post by **sinfiery** » Tue May 28, 2013 10:03 pm

Ghost93 wrote:
sinfiery wrote:I want a biglaw job that will eventually get me an in-house gig at Google or Microsoft
You and everyone else.

I ain't afraid of no Yalies. Stanford alums though...

Gunnar Stahl · Post by **Gunnar Stahl** » Tue May 28, 2013 10:06 pm

sinfiery wrote:
Ghost93 wrote:
sinfiery wrote:I want a biglaw job that will eventually get me an in-house gig at Google or Microsoft
You and everyone else.
I ain't afraid of no Yalies. Stanford alums though...

that would be a legit gig though

twenty · Post by **twenty** » Tue May 28, 2013 10:17 pm

PI gunner guy here. When I say, "As much as possible," I mean I'm willing to pay up to the point where the C&F board gets pissed at me for having an unmanageable amount of debt. I'm guessing that amount is about 350k or so.

Y - $ AMAP
S - $ AMAP
H - $ AMAP
C - $ AMAP
C - $ 180k
N - $ AMAP
P - $ AMAP
V - $ 110k
B - $ AMAP
M - $ AMAP
D - $ 140k
N - $ 60k
C - $ 60k
G - $ 110k

jbagelboy · Post by **jbagelboy** » Tue May 28, 2013 10:45 pm

sinfiery wrote:
Ghost93 wrote:
sinfiery wrote:I want a biglaw job that will eventually get me an in-house gig at Google or Microsoft
You and everyone else.
I ain't afraid of no Yalies. Stanford alums though...

I have a friend working with Twitter legal team as a 1L SA this summer fyi (Boalt student).

jbagelboy · Post by **jbagelboy** » Tue May 28, 2013 10:47 pm

twentypercentmore wrote:PI gunner guy here. When I say, "As much as possible," I mean I'm willing to pay up to the point where the C&F board gets pissed at me for having an unmanageable amount of debt. I'm guessing that amount is about 350k or so.

Y - $ AMAP
S - $ AMAP
H - $ AMAP
C - $ AMAP
C - $ 180k
N - $ AMAP
P - $ AMAP
V - $ 110k
B - $ AMAP
M - $ AMAP
D - $ 140k
N - $ 60k
C - $ 60k
G - $ 110k

No offense, but you know this is pretty dumb right? LRAP is not a cure-all. Is this a flame?

sinfiery · Post by **sinfiery** » Tue May 28, 2013 10:49 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
sinfiery wrote:
Ghost93 wrote:
sinfiery wrote:I want a biglaw job that will eventually get me an in-house gig at Google or Microsoft
You and everyone else.
I ain't afraid of no Yalies. Stanford alums though...
I have a friend working with Twitter legal team as a 1L SA this summer fyi (Boalt student).

Your posts continually make me regret withdrawing.from Berk

But seriously, Twitter is lame. Google or Barrista in Austin for me!

Monochromatic Oeuvre · Post by **Monochromatic Oeuvre** » Tue May 28, 2013 11:09 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:PI gunner guy here. When I say, "As much as possible," I mean I'm willing to pay up to the point where the C&F board gets pissed at me for having an unmanageable amount of debt. I'm guessing that amount is about 350k or so.

Y - $ AMAP
S - $ AMAP
H - $ AMAP
C - $ AMAP
C - $ 180k
N - $ AMAP
P - $ AMAP
V - $ 110k
B - $ AMAP
M - $ AMAP
D - $ 140k
N - $ 60k
C - $ 60k
G - $ 110k
No offense, but you know this is pretty dumb right? LRAP is not a cure-all. Is this a flame?

"I didn't choose the gunner life, the gunner life chose me."

PM2353 · Post by **PM2353** » Tue May 28, 2013 11:48 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:PI gunner guy here. When I say, "As much as possible," I mean I'm willing to pay up to the point where the C&F board gets pissed at me for having an unmanageable amount of debt. I'm guessing that amount is about 350k or so.

Y - $ AMAP
S - $ AMAP
H - $ AMAP
C - $ AMAP
C - $ 180k
N - $ AMAP
P - $ AMAP
V - $ 110k
B - $ AMAP
M - $ AMAP
D - $ 140k
N - $ 60k
C - $ 60k
G - $ 110k
No offense, but you know this is pretty dumb right? LRAP is not a cure-all. Is this a flame?

I was seriously thinking about this today. Assuming everything goes your way (huge assumption) then LRAP +IBR in a public service job can leave u with a paying job, good hours, and potentially a 250k loan forgiveness in 10 years. You could make a $0 payment for how many years your under the LRAP limit and do IBR for the rest of it. I have to be missing something here? (Other than there is no govt jobs available and budget cuts).

rmorris87 · Post by **rmorris87** » Wed May 29, 2013 1:00 am

Justin Genious wrote:This depends on career goals. Personally, I want NYC Biglaw and the following is what I'd pay--total COA--based on that.

Y - $150k
S - $150k
H - $150k
C - $115k
C - $115k
N - $115k
P - $100k (based on recent employment numbers)
V - $90k
B - $65k (from what I've read, Boalt doesn't place as well as it's peers in NYC)
M - $65k (recent employment numbers scare me)
D - $90k
N - $90k
C - $90k
G - wouldn't attend

You do realize that Georgetown is an EXTREMELY well-respected school.. I really think you're underestimating it.

Clearly · Post by **Clearly** » Wed May 29, 2013 1:22 am

rmorris87 wrote:
Justin Genious wrote:This depends on career goals. Personally, I want NYC Biglaw and the following is what I'd pay--total COA--based on that.

Y - $150k
S - $150k
H - $150k
C - $115k
C - $115k
N - $115k
P - $100k (based on recent employment numbers)
V - $90k
B - $65k (from what I've read, Boalt doesn't place as well as it's peers in NYC)
M - $65k (recent employment numbers scare me)
D - $90k
N - $90k
C - $90k
G - wouldn't attend
You do realize that Georgetown is an EXTREMELY well-respected school.. I really think you're underestimating it.

lol

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