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Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 2:08 pm
by bananapeanutbutter
titan747 wrote:I am not intending to hijack the thread, but what is the best school one should attend in a simlar coa situation. For example is Columbia or Duke for free better than Harvard for 100k... etc

It probably depends on geographic preference. Personally, I'd rather be able to say I went to Harvard and drive a crap car than go to Columbia and drive a porsche because of how I value possessional status versus how I value social status. The concern over poverty is real, but I'm tempted to think that even if you got laid off 2 years in and went the non-law route in the worst case scenario, most people would much rather hire a Harvard graduate of any program because of lay prestige.

Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 2:23 pm
by Clearly
bananapeanutbutter wrote:
titan747 wrote:I am not intending to hijack the thread, but what is the best school one should attend in a simlar coa situation. For example is Columbia or Duke for free better than Harvard for 100k... etc

It probably depends on geographic preference. Personally, I'd rather be able to say I went to Harvard and drive a crap car than go to Columbia and drive a porsche because of how I value possessional status versus how I value social status. The concern over poverty is real, but I'm tempted to think that even if you got laid off 2 years in and went the non-law route in the worst case scenario, most people would much rather hire a Harvard graduate of any program because of lay prestige.

I'd take Harvard for 100 over anything but Y free.

Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 2:28 pm
by AspiringAcademic
I'm a fan of chasing the money, but this is Harvard by a mile.

Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 2:40 pm
by jbagelboy
titan747 wrote:I am not intending to hijack the thread, but what is the best school one should attend in a simlar coa situation. For example is Columbia or Duke for free better than Harvard for 100k... etc


Depends on goals. If you really just want to work at an nlj250 firm in nyc, CLS for free makes more sense than six figures at Harvard since their placement is easily on par. If your post grad goals include an A3 clerkship, a secondary market, or academia, harvard is probably worth the extra cash

Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 2:52 pm
by jbagelboy
bananapeanutbutter wrote:
titan747 wrote:I am not intending to hijack the thread, but what is the best school one should attend in a simlar coa situation. For example is Columbia or Duke for free better than Harvard for 100k... etc

It probably depends on geographic preference. Personally, I'd rather be able to say I went to Harvard and drive a crap car than go to Columbia and drive a porsche because of how I value possessional status versus how I value social status. The concern over poverty is real, but I'm tempted to think that even if you got laid off 2 years in and went the non-law route in the worst case scenario, most people would much rather hire a Harvard graduate of any program because of lay prestige.


This "social" status vs "professional" status thing feels like speculative bogus to me. Both are ivy prestigious degrees. Once you are working at a firm I dont see how you would feel "socially" different

Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 3:04 pm
by Monochromatic Oeuvre
titan747 wrote:I am not intending to hijack the thread, but what is the best school one should attend in a simlar coa situation. For example is Columbia or Duke for free better than Harvard for 100k... etc


This is the chart I use. Crude, but a reasonable general guideline. My own personal opinion, obviously. For purposes of this, $ is 0-50k, $$ is 50-100k, and anything more is $$$. Depending on one's ability to pay, these can be adjusted to reflect money being more important or less important.

1. CC $$$/Y sticker
2 N $$$/H sticker
3. MVP $$$
4. CCN $$/S sticker
5. DN $$$
6. MVP $$
7. CG $$$
8. CCN $
9. CCN sticker/MVP $/DN $$
10. MVP sticker/DN $/CG $$

To answer your question: My opinion is that the average student with an H acceptance should rule out everything that isn't Yale or a CCN full ride. Those who are in bad financial positions should consider MVP full rides, and the worst of the worst financially (significant outside debt) might want to consider DN full rides. I would recommend different things for different financial positions: Suppose a student has a Stanford acceptance. If that student is very well-off, he/she could easily turn down an MVP full ride. However, if that same student is very poor, they might take a CG full ride. But most of the time, I would say UVA is not in the picture when you've got that JS2.

Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 3:22 pm
by twenty
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:This is the chart I use. Crude, but a reasonable general guideline. My own personal opinion, obviously. For purposes of this, $ is 0-50k, $$ is 50-100k, and anything more is $$$. Depending on one's ability to pay, these can be adjusted to reflect money being more important or less important.

1. CC $$$/Y sticker
2 N $$$/H sticker
3. MVP $$$
4. CCN $$/S sticker
5. DN $$$
6. MVP $$
7. CG $$$
8. CCN $
9. CCN sticker/MVP $/DN $$
10. MVP sticker/DN $/CG $$

To answer your question: My opinion is that the average student with an H acceptance should rule out everything that isn't Yale or a CCN full ride. Those who are in bad financial positions should consider MVP full rides, and the worst of the worst financially (significant outside debt) might want to consider DN full rides. I would recommend different things for different financial positions: Suppose a student has a Stanford acceptance. If that student is very well-off, he/she could easily turn down an MVP full ride. However, if that same student is very poor, they might take a CG full ride. But most of the time, I would say UVA is not in the picture when you've got that JS2.


I see what you're trying to do, and I do support the effort here, but it's not quite so cut and dry. If you're like many TLSers that know from 0L that all they want is NYC biglaw, then Columbia and NYU (probably Penn, too) with full rides beat out everything by a landslide. If you have ties to (and want to practice in) North Carolina, Duke with a full ride beats out H at sticker, no question. If you have a PI resume and know you wouldn't want to be caught dead in a law firm, then HYS at sticker beats everything, followed by NYU and then Berkeley. (speaking of which, where is Berkeley in this ranking system?)

It's not "ability to pay" that's in question here (if your dad is willing to cover 200k of law school expenses, then great, most of us don't have that situation in front of us), it's the earning potential and worst case scenario.

Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 3:26 pm
by sublime
..

Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 3:34 pm
by twenty
sublime12089 wrote:What's up with the Stanford ranking in your chart?


You can put TTT in its name, so it's less preftigious.

Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 4:58 pm
by bananapeanutbutter
jbagelboy wrote:
bananapeanutbutter wrote:
titan747 wrote:I am not intending to hijack the thread, but what is the best school one should attend in a simlar coa situation. For example is Columbia or Duke for free better than Harvard for 100k... etc

It probably depends on geographic preference. Personally, I'd rather be able to say I went to Harvard and drive a crap car than go to Columbia and drive a porsche because of how I value possessional status versus how I value social status. The concern over poverty is real, but I'm tempted to think that even if you got laid off 2 years in and went the non-law route in the worst case scenario, most people would much rather hire a Harvard graduate of any program because of lay prestige.


This "social" status vs "professional" status thing feels like speculative bogus to me. Both are ivy prestigious degrees. Once you are working at a firm I dont see how you would feel "socially" different

You're assuming that they're both winding up at the same firm, and even then I still think there's a difference. I don't know if it's worth 100k, but Harvard kind of guarantees an outcome what with the reputation and grading structure. You could go, get all passes, focus on developing interviewing skills and be good. Columbia you still need to be above median - it doesn't really guarantee you'll get a good job, just makes it above 50%.

Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 5:01 pm
by ManOfTheMinute
sublime12089 wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:This is the chart I use. Crude, but a reasonable general guideline. My own personal opinion, obviously. For purposes of this, $ is 0-50k, $$ is 50-100k, and anything more is $$$. Depending on one's ability to pay, these can be adjusted to reflect money being more important or less important.

1. CC $$$/Y sticker
2 N $$$/H sticker
3. MVP $$$
4. CCN $$/S sticker
5. DN $$$
6. MVP $$
7. CG $$$
8. CCN $
9. CCN sticker/MVP $/DN $$
10. MVP sticker/DN $/CG $$

To answer your question: My opinion is that the average student with an H acceptance should rule out everything that isn't Yale or a CCN full ride. Those who are in bad financial positions should consider MVP full rides, and the worst of the worst financially (significant outside debt) might want to consider DN full rides. I would recommend different things for different financial positions: Suppose a student has a Stanford acceptance. If that student is very well-off, he/she could easily turn down an MVP full ride. However, if that same student is very poor, they might take a CG full ride. But most of the time, I would say UVA is not in the picture when you've got that JS2.



What's up with the Stanford ranking in your chart?


For realz... shit son, you be whack

Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 5:01 pm
by Monochromatic Oeuvre
sublime12089 wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
titan747 wrote:I am not intending to hijack the thread, but what is the best school one should attend in a simlar coa situation. For example is Columbia or Duke for free better than Harvard for 100k... etc


This is the chart I use. Crude, but a reasonable general guideline. My own personal opinion, obviously. For purposes of this, $ is 0-50k, $$ is 50-100k, and anything more is $$$. Depending on one's ability to pay, these can be adjusted to reflect money being more important or less important.

1. CC $$$/Y sticker
2 N $$$/H sticker
3. MVP $$$
4. CCN $$/S sticker
5. DN $$$
6. MVP $$
7. CG $$$
8. CCN $
9. CCN sticker/MVP $/DN $$
10. MVP sticker/DN $/CG $$

To answer your question: My opinion is that the average student with an H acceptance should rule out everything that isn't Yale or a CCN full ride. Those who are in bad financial positions should consider MVP full rides, and the worst of the worst financially (significant outside debt) might want to consider DN full rides. I would recommend different things for different financial positions: Suppose a student has a Stanford acceptance. If that student is very well-off, he/she could easily turn down an MVP full ride. However, if that same student is very poor, they might take a CG full ride. But most of the time, I would say UVA is not in the picture when you've got that JS2.



What's up with the Stanford ranking in your chart?


Harvard will outplace them in most markets. Stanford will usually win the West Coast and Harvard usually wins everywhere else. But at the very top, Harvard will almost always do better, even on a per capita basis. Not to say Stanford sucks, I would certainly say it places closer to Harvard than it does to CCN.

Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 5:10 pm
by bananapeanutbutter
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
sublime12089 wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
titan747 wrote:I am not intending to hijack the thread, but what is the best school one should attend in a simlar coa situation. For example is Columbia or Duke for free better than Harvard for 100k... etc


This is the chart I use. Crude, but a reasonable general guideline. My own personal opinion, obviously. For purposes of this, $ is 0-50k, $$ is 50-100k, and anything more is $$$. Depending on one's ability to pay, these can be adjusted to reflect money being more important or less important.

1. CC $$$/Y sticker
2 N $$$/H sticker
3. MVP $$$
4. CCN $$/S sticker
5. DN $$$
6. MVP $$
7. CG $$$
8. CCN $
9. CCN sticker/MVP $/DN $$
10. MVP sticker/DN $/CG $$

To answer your question: My opinion is that the average student with an H acceptance should rule out everything that isn't Yale or a CCN full ride. Those who are in bad financial positions should consider MVP full rides, and the worst of the worst financially (significant outside debt) might want to consider DN full rides. I would recommend different things for different financial positions: Suppose a student has a Stanford acceptance. If that student is very well-off, he/she could easily turn down an MVP full ride. However, if that same student is very poor, they might take a CG full ride. But most of the time, I would say UVA is not in the picture when you've got that JS2.



What's up with the Stanford ranking in your chart?


Harvard will outplace them in most markets. Stanford will usually win the West Coast and Harvard usually wins everywhere else. But at the very top, Harvard will almost always do better, even on a per capita basis. Not to say Stanford sucks, I would certainly say it places closer to Harvard than it does to CCN.

Less students = less competition for jobs.

Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 5:18 pm
by eph
I think this is a flame but if not...

IF I AM ADMITTED, CAN I DEFER ENROLLMENT?
No. Offers of admission from the wait list are to fill spaces in this year’s entering class only. If you know that you will not accept an offer of admission to enroll this fall, we ask that you withdraw from the wait list.

From the Harvard Admissions blog

No one in your situation H vs UVA same money, assuming the GI Bill stuff is right, would even consider UVA.

Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 6:07 pm
by 0831kf
eph wrote:I think this is a flame but if not...

IF I AM ADMITTED, CAN I DEFER ENROLLMENT?
No. Offers of admission from the wait list are to fill spaces in this year’s entering class only. If you know that you will not accept an offer of admission to enroll this fall, we ask that you withdraw from the wait list.

From the Harvard Admissions blog

No one in your situation H vs UVA same money, assuming the GI Bill stuff is right, would even consider UVA.


Yeah, I just saw that... So, I have to decide now... phew...... don't know what to do.

Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 6:17 pm
by ManOfTheMinute
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
Harvard will outplace them in most markets. Stanford will usually win the West Coast and Harvard usually wins everywhere else. But at the very top, Harvard will almost always do better, even on a per capita basis. Not to say Stanford sucks, I would certainly say it places closer to Harvard than it does to CCN.


Looking at (COA, supreme court, etc.) clerkships and big law, I fail to see this. But meh.

Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 6:22 pm
by bananapeanutbutter
Is retake not an option?

Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 6:43 pm
by Nelson
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Harvard will outplace them in most markets. Stanford will usually win the West Coast and Harvard usually wins everywhere else. But at the very top, Harvard will almost always do better, even on a per capita basis. Not to say Stanford sucks, I would certainly say it places closer to Harvard than it does to CCN.

You are one of the most consistently wrong 0L posters to crop up in ages.

Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 6:50 pm
by sapien
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
sublime12089 wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
titan747 wrote:I am not intending to hijack the thread, but what is the best school one should attend in a simlar coa situation. For example is Columbia or Duke for free better than Harvard for 100k... etc


This is the chart I use. Crude, but a reasonable general guideline. My own personal opinion, obviously. For purposes of this, $ is 0-50k, $$ is 50-100k, and anything more is $$$. Depending on one's ability to pay, these can be adjusted to reflect money being more important or less important.

1. CC $$$/Y sticker
2 N $$$/H sticker
3. MVP $$$
4. CCN $$/S sticker
5. DN $$$
6. MVP $$
7. CG $$$
8. CCN $
9. CCN sticker/MVP $/DN $$
10. MVP sticker/DN $/CG $$

To answer your question: My opinion is that the average student with an H acceptance should rule out everything that isn't Yale or a CCN full ride. Those who are in bad financial positions should consider MVP full rides, and the worst of the worst financially (significant outside debt) might want to consider DN full rides. I would recommend different things for different financial positions: Suppose a student has a Stanford acceptance. If that student is very well-off, he/she could easily turn down an MVP full ride. However, if that same student is very poor, they might take a CG full ride. But most of the time, I would say UVA is not in the picture when you've got that JS2.



What's up with the Stanford ranking in your chart?


Harvard will outplace them in most markets. Stanford will usually win the West Coast and Harvard usually wins everywhere else. But at the very top, Harvard will almost always do better, even on a per capita basis. Not to say Stanford sucks, I would certainly say it places closer to Harvard than it does to CCN.


Given that SLS almost doubles HLS's clerkship rate and that their students have an easier time in OCI for almost every market (especially in NYC and DC, where there is less competition among classmates), this is silly. And how can you know whether HLS grads at the top almost always do better?

Edit: my advice to OP: go to HLS. 100k is really not that bad.

Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 7:04 pm
by BigZuck
Nelson wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Harvard will outplace them in most markets. Stanford will usually win the West Coast and Harvard usually wins everywhere else. But at the very top, Harvard will almost always do better, even on a per capita basis. Not to say Stanford sucks, I would certainly say it places closer to Harvard than it does to CCN.

You are one of the most consistently wrong 0L posters to crop up in ages.


And your sole presence on this site seems to be to pop into threads and say "stupid 0Ls" and virtually never anything of substence but we don't give you shit for being a bad poster.

Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 7:09 pm
by coldweather
Pretty sure the consensus on tls when the harvard v stanford debate rages on is that stanford = harvard or maybe stanford has the employment advantage during an economic downturn.

Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 7:26 pm
by indo
Dr. Dre wrote:
PDaddy wrote:It's the biggest, baddest badass school on the planet!


nope. Yale is.



You are so wrong .

Harvard is more well know in the world than Yale.

I have lived in Asia and Europe before come to USA.

Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 8:22 pm
by Monochromatic Oeuvre
sapien wrote: Given that SLS almost doubles HLS's clerkship rate and that their students have an easier time in OCI for almost every market (especially in NYC and DC, where there is less competition among classmates), this is silly. And how can you know whether HLS grads at the top almost always do better?

Edit: my advice to OP: go to HLS. 100k is really not that bad.


SCOTUS clerkships were about even on a per-capita basis over the past decade: 101 for Harvard, 33 for Stanford. I don't know about other high-prestige ones.

I don't know about the relative difficulty on OCI, either.

Both Harvard and Stanford students who want Biglaw are going to get it with almost 100% certainty. But we do have a lot of data that shows, on a per-capita basis, Harvard places more students into V50 firms, and more students into the top two or three firms in every market except the West Coast, than does Stanford. We have the Leiter data, firm directory data, and the NLJ data that all demonstrate this. Each of these pieces of data has its limitations: The Leiter stuff is fairly dated, the firm directory data naturally lags in estimating current OCIs, and the NLJ data is a small sample size.

But I have never seen data conclusively demonstrate that, in any non-West Coast market at any time, Stanford was placing more grads in upper-echelon firms over a significant period of time on a per-capita basis. If someone has any data that would conclusively show that, please post it and I'll retract my previous statements.

Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 12:58 am
by cavtrpr
sublime12089 wrote:I need to enlist.


No you don't. You need to commission.

Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 1:51 am
by Ti Malice
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:But we do have a lot of data that shows, on a per-capita basis, Harvard places more students into V50 firms, and more students into the top two or three firms in every market except the West Coast, than does Stanford. We have the Leiter data, firm directory data, and the NLJ data that all demonstrate this. Each of these pieces of data has its limitations: The Leiter stuff is fairly dated, the firm directory data naturally lags in estimating current OCIs, and the NLJ data is a small sample size.

But I have never seen data conclusively demonstrate that, in any non-West Coast market at any time, Stanford was placing more grads in upper-echelon firms over a significant period of time on a per-capita basis. If someone has any data that would conclusively show that, please post it and I'll retract my previous statements.


Pure per-capita data by itself doesn't demonstrate anything. Half of SLS grads self-select into jobs in CA. Much larger proportions of HLS's class head to NYC and DC -- the two markets with the most V50 firms. Of course SLS is not going to match HLS on a per-capita basis in V50 placement. This data alone doesn't permit you to make any claims as to relative placement ability.