Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

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Harvard vs UVA

Poll ended at Thu May 30, 2013 2:03 am

Harvard ($100K)
116
89%
UVA (near 0)
15
11%
 
Total votes: 131

bananapeanutbutter
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Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Postby bananapeanutbutter » Sun May 26, 2013 2:08 pm

titan747 wrote:I am not intending to hijack the thread, but what is the best school one should attend in a simlar coa situation. For example is Columbia or Duke for free better than Harvard for 100k... etc

It probably depends on geographic preference. Personally, I'd rather be able to say I went to Harvard and drive a crap car than go to Columbia and drive a porsche because of how I value possessional status versus how I value social status. The concern over poverty is real, but I'm tempted to think that even if you got laid off 2 years in and went the non-law route in the worst case scenario, most people would much rather hire a Harvard graduate of any program because of lay prestige.

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Clearly
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Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Postby Clearly » Sun May 26, 2013 2:23 pm

bananapeanutbutter wrote:
titan747 wrote:I am not intending to hijack the thread, but what is the best school one should attend in a simlar coa situation. For example is Columbia or Duke for free better than Harvard for 100k... etc

It probably depends on geographic preference. Personally, I'd rather be able to say I went to Harvard and drive a crap car than go to Columbia and drive a porsche because of how I value possessional status versus how I value social status. The concern over poverty is real, but I'm tempted to think that even if you got laid off 2 years in and went the non-law route in the worst case scenario, most people would much rather hire a Harvard graduate of any program because of lay prestige.

I'd take Harvard for 100 over anything but Y free.

AspiringAcademic
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Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Postby AspiringAcademic » Sun May 26, 2013 2:28 pm

I'm a fan of chasing the money, but this is Harvard by a mile.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Postby jbagelboy » Sun May 26, 2013 2:40 pm

titan747 wrote:I am not intending to hijack the thread, but what is the best school one should attend in a simlar coa situation. For example is Columbia or Duke for free better than Harvard for 100k... etc


Depends on goals. If you really just want to work at an nlj250 firm in nyc, CLS for free makes more sense than six figures at Harvard since their placement is easily on par. If your post grad goals include an A3 clerkship, a secondary market, or academia, harvard is probably worth the extra cash

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jbagelboy
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Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Postby jbagelboy » Sun May 26, 2013 2:52 pm

bananapeanutbutter wrote:
titan747 wrote:I am not intending to hijack the thread, but what is the best school one should attend in a simlar coa situation. For example is Columbia or Duke for free better than Harvard for 100k... etc

It probably depends on geographic preference. Personally, I'd rather be able to say I went to Harvard and drive a crap car than go to Columbia and drive a porsche because of how I value possessional status versus how I value social status. The concern over poverty is real, but I'm tempted to think that even if you got laid off 2 years in and went the non-law route in the worst case scenario, most people would much rather hire a Harvard graduate of any program because of lay prestige.


This "social" status vs "professional" status thing feels like speculative bogus to me. Both are ivy prestigious degrees. Once you are working at a firm I dont see how you would feel "socially" different

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Sun May 26, 2013 3:04 pm

titan747 wrote:I am not intending to hijack the thread, but what is the best school one should attend in a simlar coa situation. For example is Columbia or Duke for free better than Harvard for 100k... etc


This is the chart I use. Crude, but a reasonable general guideline. My own personal opinion, obviously. For purposes of this, $ is 0-50k, $$ is 50-100k, and anything more is $$$. Depending on one's ability to pay, these can be adjusted to reflect money being more important or less important.

1. CC $$$/Y sticker
2 N $$$/H sticker
3. MVP $$$
4. CCN $$/S sticker
5. DN $$$
6. MVP $$
7. CG $$$
8. CCN $
9. CCN sticker/MVP $/DN $$
10. MVP sticker/DN $/CG $$

To answer your question: My opinion is that the average student with an H acceptance should rule out everything that isn't Yale or a CCN full ride. Those who are in bad financial positions should consider MVP full rides, and the worst of the worst financially (significant outside debt) might want to consider DN full rides. I would recommend different things for different financial positions: Suppose a student has a Stanford acceptance. If that student is very well-off, he/she could easily turn down an MVP full ride. However, if that same student is very poor, they might take a CG full ride. But most of the time, I would say UVA is not in the picture when you've got that JS2.

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twenty
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Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Postby twenty » Sun May 26, 2013 3:22 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:This is the chart I use. Crude, but a reasonable general guideline. My own personal opinion, obviously. For purposes of this, $ is 0-50k, $$ is 50-100k, and anything more is $$$. Depending on one's ability to pay, these can be adjusted to reflect money being more important or less important.

1. CC $$$/Y sticker
2 N $$$/H sticker
3. MVP $$$
4. CCN $$/S sticker
5. DN $$$
6. MVP $$
7. CG $$$
8. CCN $
9. CCN sticker/MVP $/DN $$
10. MVP sticker/DN $/CG $$

To answer your question: My opinion is that the average student with an H acceptance should rule out everything that isn't Yale or a CCN full ride. Those who are in bad financial positions should consider MVP full rides, and the worst of the worst financially (significant outside debt) might want to consider DN full rides. I would recommend different things for different financial positions: Suppose a student has a Stanford acceptance. If that student is very well-off, he/she could easily turn down an MVP full ride. However, if that same student is very poor, they might take a CG full ride. But most of the time, I would say UVA is not in the picture when you've got that JS2.


I see what you're trying to do, and I do support the effort here, but it's not quite so cut and dry. If you're like many TLSers that know from 0L that all they want is NYC biglaw, then Columbia and NYU (probably Penn, too) with full rides beat out everything by a landslide. If you have ties to (and want to practice in) North Carolina, Duke with a full ride beats out H at sticker, no question. If you have a PI resume and know you wouldn't want to be caught dead in a law firm, then HYS at sticker beats everything, followed by NYU and then Berkeley. (speaking of which, where is Berkeley in this ranking system?)

It's not "ability to pay" that's in question here (if your dad is willing to cover 200k of law school expenses, then great, most of us don't have that situation in front of us), it's the earning potential and worst case scenario.

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sublime
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Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Postby sublime » Sun May 26, 2013 3:26 pm

..

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twenty
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Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Postby twenty » Sun May 26, 2013 3:34 pm

sublime wrote:What's up with the Stanford ranking in your chart?


You can put TTT in its name, so it's less preftigious.

bananapeanutbutter
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Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Postby bananapeanutbutter » Sun May 26, 2013 4:58 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
bananapeanutbutter wrote:
titan747 wrote:I am not intending to hijack the thread, but what is the best school one should attend in a simlar coa situation. For example is Columbia or Duke for free better than Harvard for 100k... etc

It probably depends on geographic preference. Personally, I'd rather be able to say I went to Harvard and drive a crap car than go to Columbia and drive a porsche because of how I value possessional status versus how I value social status. The concern over poverty is real, but I'm tempted to think that even if you got laid off 2 years in and went the non-law route in the worst case scenario, most people would much rather hire a Harvard graduate of any program because of lay prestige.


This "social" status vs "professional" status thing feels like speculative bogus to me. Both are ivy prestigious degrees. Once you are working at a firm I dont see how you would feel "socially" different

You're assuming that they're both winding up at the same firm, and even then I still think there's a difference. I don't know if it's worth 100k, but Harvard kind of guarantees an outcome what with the reputation and grading structure. You could go, get all passes, focus on developing interviewing skills and be good. Columbia you still need to be above median - it doesn't really guarantee you'll get a good job, just makes it above 50%.

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ManOfTheMinute
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Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Postby ManOfTheMinute » Sun May 26, 2013 5:01 pm

sublime wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:This is the chart I use. Crude, but a reasonable general guideline. My own personal opinion, obviously. For purposes of this, $ is 0-50k, $$ is 50-100k, and anything more is $$$. Depending on one's ability to pay, these can be adjusted to reflect money being more important or less important.

1. CC $$$/Y sticker
2 N $$$/H sticker
3. MVP $$$
4. CCN $$/S sticker
5. DN $$$
6. MVP $$
7. CG $$$
8. CCN $
9. CCN sticker/MVP $/DN $$
10. MVP sticker/DN $/CG $$

To answer your question: My opinion is that the average student with an H acceptance should rule out everything that isn't Yale or a CCN full ride. Those who are in bad financial positions should consider MVP full rides, and the worst of the worst financially (significant outside debt) might want to consider DN full rides. I would recommend different things for different financial positions: Suppose a student has a Stanford acceptance. If that student is very well-off, he/she could easily turn down an MVP full ride. However, if that same student is very poor, they might take a CG full ride. But most of the time, I would say UVA is not in the picture when you've got that JS2.



What's up with the Stanford ranking in your chart?


For realz... shit son, you be whack

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Sun May 26, 2013 5:01 pm

sublime wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
titan747 wrote:I am not intending to hijack the thread, but what is the best school one should attend in a simlar coa situation. For example is Columbia or Duke for free better than Harvard for 100k... etc


This is the chart I use. Crude, but a reasonable general guideline. My own personal opinion, obviously. For purposes of this, $ is 0-50k, $$ is 50-100k, and anything more is $$$. Depending on one's ability to pay, these can be adjusted to reflect money being more important or less important.

1. CC $$$/Y sticker
2 N $$$/H sticker
3. MVP $$$
4. CCN $$/S sticker
5. DN $$$
6. MVP $$
7. CG $$$
8. CCN $
9. CCN sticker/MVP $/DN $$
10. MVP sticker/DN $/CG $$

To answer your question: My opinion is that the average student with an H acceptance should rule out everything that isn't Yale or a CCN full ride. Those who are in bad financial positions should consider MVP full rides, and the worst of the worst financially (significant outside debt) might want to consider DN full rides. I would recommend different things for different financial positions: Suppose a student has a Stanford acceptance. If that student is very well-off, he/she could easily turn down an MVP full ride. However, if that same student is very poor, they might take a CG full ride. But most of the time, I would say UVA is not in the picture when you've got that JS2.



What's up with the Stanford ranking in your chart?


Harvard will outplace them in most markets. Stanford will usually win the West Coast and Harvard usually wins everywhere else. But at the very top, Harvard will almost always do better, even on a per capita basis. Not to say Stanford sucks, I would certainly say it places closer to Harvard than it does to CCN.

bananapeanutbutter
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Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Postby bananapeanutbutter » Sun May 26, 2013 5:10 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
sublime wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
titan747 wrote:I am not intending to hijack the thread, but what is the best school one should attend in a simlar coa situation. For example is Columbia or Duke for free better than Harvard for 100k... etc


This is the chart I use. Crude, but a reasonable general guideline. My own personal opinion, obviously. For purposes of this, $ is 0-50k, $$ is 50-100k, and anything more is $$$. Depending on one's ability to pay, these can be adjusted to reflect money being more important or less important.

1. CC $$$/Y sticker
2 N $$$/H sticker
3. MVP $$$
4. CCN $$/S sticker
5. DN $$$
6. MVP $$
7. CG $$$
8. CCN $
9. CCN sticker/MVP $/DN $$
10. MVP sticker/DN $/CG $$

To answer your question: My opinion is that the average student with an H acceptance should rule out everything that isn't Yale or a CCN full ride. Those who are in bad financial positions should consider MVP full rides, and the worst of the worst financially (significant outside debt) might want to consider DN full rides. I would recommend different things for different financial positions: Suppose a student has a Stanford acceptance. If that student is very well-off, he/she could easily turn down an MVP full ride. However, if that same student is very poor, they might take a CG full ride. But most of the time, I would say UVA is not in the picture when you've got that JS2.



What's up with the Stanford ranking in your chart?


Harvard will outplace them in most markets. Stanford will usually win the West Coast and Harvard usually wins everywhere else. But at the very top, Harvard will almost always do better, even on a per capita basis. Not to say Stanford sucks, I would certainly say it places closer to Harvard than it does to CCN.

Less students = less competition for jobs.

eph
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Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Postby eph » Sun May 26, 2013 5:18 pm

I think this is a flame but if not...

IF I AM ADMITTED, CAN I DEFER ENROLLMENT?
No. Offers of admission from the wait list are to fill spaces in this year’s entering class only. If you know that you will not accept an offer of admission to enroll this fall, we ask that you withdraw from the wait list.

From the Harvard Admissions blog

No one in your situation H vs UVA same money, assuming the GI Bill stuff is right, would even consider UVA.

0831kf
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Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Postby 0831kf » Sun May 26, 2013 6:07 pm

eph wrote:I think this is a flame but if not...

IF I AM ADMITTED, CAN I DEFER ENROLLMENT?
No. Offers of admission from the wait list are to fill spaces in this year’s entering class only. If you know that you will not accept an offer of admission to enroll this fall, we ask that you withdraw from the wait list.

From the Harvard Admissions blog

No one in your situation H vs UVA same money, assuming the GI Bill stuff is right, would even consider UVA.


Yeah, I just saw that... So, I have to decide now... phew...... don't know what to do.

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ManOfTheMinute
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Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Postby ManOfTheMinute » Sun May 26, 2013 6:17 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
Harvard will outplace them in most markets. Stanford will usually win the West Coast and Harvard usually wins everywhere else. But at the very top, Harvard will almost always do better, even on a per capita basis. Not to say Stanford sucks, I would certainly say it places closer to Harvard than it does to CCN.


Looking at (COA, supreme court, etc.) clerkships and big law, I fail to see this. But meh.

bananapeanutbutter
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Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Postby bananapeanutbutter » Sun May 26, 2013 6:22 pm

Is retake not an option?

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Nelson
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Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Postby Nelson » Sun May 26, 2013 6:43 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Harvard will outplace them in most markets. Stanford will usually win the West Coast and Harvard usually wins everywhere else. But at the very top, Harvard will almost always do better, even on a per capita basis. Not to say Stanford sucks, I would certainly say it places closer to Harvard than it does to CCN.

You are one of the most consistently wrong 0L posters to crop up in ages.

sapien
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Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Postby sapien » Sun May 26, 2013 6:50 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
sublime wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
titan747 wrote:I am not intending to hijack the thread, but what is the best school one should attend in a simlar coa situation. For example is Columbia or Duke for free better than Harvard for 100k... etc


This is the chart I use. Crude, but a reasonable general guideline. My own personal opinion, obviously. For purposes of this, $ is 0-50k, $$ is 50-100k, and anything more is $$$. Depending on one's ability to pay, these can be adjusted to reflect money being more important or less important.

1. CC $$$/Y sticker
2 N $$$/H sticker
3. MVP $$$
4. CCN $$/S sticker
5. DN $$$
6. MVP $$
7. CG $$$
8. CCN $
9. CCN sticker/MVP $/DN $$
10. MVP sticker/DN $/CG $$

To answer your question: My opinion is that the average student with an H acceptance should rule out everything that isn't Yale or a CCN full ride. Those who are in bad financial positions should consider MVP full rides, and the worst of the worst financially (significant outside debt) might want to consider DN full rides. I would recommend different things for different financial positions: Suppose a student has a Stanford acceptance. If that student is very well-off, he/she could easily turn down an MVP full ride. However, if that same student is very poor, they might take a CG full ride. But most of the time, I would say UVA is not in the picture when you've got that JS2.



What's up with the Stanford ranking in your chart?


Harvard will outplace them in most markets. Stanford will usually win the West Coast and Harvard usually wins everywhere else. But at the very top, Harvard will almost always do better, even on a per capita basis. Not to say Stanford sucks, I would certainly say it places closer to Harvard than it does to CCN.


Given that SLS almost doubles HLS's clerkship rate and that their students have an easier time in OCI for almost every market (especially in NYC and DC, where there is less competition among classmates), this is silly. And how can you know whether HLS grads at the top almost always do better?

Edit: my advice to OP: go to HLS. 100k is really not that bad.

BigZuck
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Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Postby BigZuck » Sun May 26, 2013 7:04 pm

Nelson wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Harvard will outplace them in most markets. Stanford will usually win the West Coast and Harvard usually wins everywhere else. But at the very top, Harvard will almost always do better, even on a per capita basis. Not to say Stanford sucks, I would certainly say it places closer to Harvard than it does to CCN.

You are one of the most consistently wrong 0L posters to crop up in ages.


And your sole presence on this site seems to be to pop into threads and say "stupid 0Ls" and virtually never anything of substence but we don't give you shit for being a bad poster.

coldweather
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Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Postby coldweather » Sun May 26, 2013 7:09 pm

Pretty sure the consensus on tls when the harvard v stanford debate rages on is that stanford = harvard or maybe stanford has the employment advantage during an economic downturn.

indo
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Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Postby indo » Sun May 26, 2013 7:26 pm

Dr. Dre wrote:
PDaddy wrote:It's the biggest, baddest badass school on the planet!


nope. Yale is.



You are so wrong .

Harvard is more well know in the world than Yale.

I have lived in Asia and Europe before come to USA.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Sun May 26, 2013 8:22 pm

sapien wrote: Given that SLS almost doubles HLS's clerkship rate and that their students have an easier time in OCI for almost every market (especially in NYC and DC, where there is less competition among classmates), this is silly. And how can you know whether HLS grads at the top almost always do better?

Edit: my advice to OP: go to HLS. 100k is really not that bad.


SCOTUS clerkships were about even on a per-capita basis over the past decade: 101 for Harvard, 33 for Stanford. I don't know about other high-prestige ones.

I don't know about the relative difficulty on OCI, either.

Both Harvard and Stanford students who want Biglaw are going to get it with almost 100% certainty. But we do have a lot of data that shows, on a per-capita basis, Harvard places more students into V50 firms, and more students into the top two or three firms in every market except the West Coast, than does Stanford. We have the Leiter data, firm directory data, and the NLJ data that all demonstrate this. Each of these pieces of data has its limitations: The Leiter stuff is fairly dated, the firm directory data naturally lags in estimating current OCIs, and the NLJ data is a small sample size.

But I have never seen data conclusively demonstrate that, in any non-West Coast market at any time, Stanford was placing more grads in upper-echelon firms over a significant period of time on a per-capita basis. If someone has any data that would conclusively show that, please post it and I'll retract my previous statements.

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cavtrpr
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Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Postby cavtrpr » Mon May 27, 2013 12:58 am

sublime wrote:I need to enlist.


No you don't. You need to commission.

Ti Malice
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Re: Harvard ($100K) vs UVA (near 0)

Postby Ti Malice » Mon May 27, 2013 1:51 am

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:But we do have a lot of data that shows, on a per-capita basis, Harvard places more students into V50 firms, and more students into the top two or three firms in every market except the West Coast, than does Stanford. We have the Leiter data, firm directory data, and the NLJ data that all demonstrate this. Each of these pieces of data has its limitations: The Leiter stuff is fairly dated, the firm directory data naturally lags in estimating current OCIs, and the NLJ data is a small sample size.

But I have never seen data conclusively demonstrate that, in any non-West Coast market at any time, Stanford was placing more grads in upper-echelon firms over a significant period of time on a per-capita basis. If someone has any data that would conclusively show that, please post it and I'll retract my previous statements.


Pure per-capita data by itself doesn't demonstrate anything. Half of SLS grads self-select into jobs in CA. Much larger proportions of HLS's class head to NYC and DC -- the two markets with the most V50 firms. Of course SLS is not going to match HLS on a per-capita basis in V50 placement. This data alone doesn't permit you to make any claims as to relative placement ability.




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