Harvard Sticker v. Texas Full-Ride

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which should I choose?

Harvard Near-Sticker
170
54%
Texas Full Tuition and Fees
146
46%
 
Total votes: 316

muskies970
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Re: Harvard Sticker v. Texas Full-Ride

Postby muskies970 » Fri May 24, 2013 1:25 am

Over the course of your career you will make at least 3 to 5 million, that's assuming you drop out of big law after 3 to 5 years and don't make partner, which I think having a hls degree gives you an even better shot for.

I think it comes down to what will bring you extra satisfaction in life, an extra 30 to 40k in take home salary for the first 8 to 10 years of your life or the connections, education, and prestige Harvard will bring. I'm personally not a materialistic person and wouldn't mind living on 40 to 50k a year knowing i did so for a Harvard degree, connections, and experience (i think those things are invaluable compared to a slightly larger apartment or more expensive vacation or car). But thats your choice to make either option is fantastic and is your personal preference OP

muskies970
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Re: Harvard Sticker v. Texas Full-Ride

Postby muskies970 » Fri May 24, 2013 1:29 am

rickgrimes69 wrote:
Nelson wrote:Do not take on more debt for law school.

Anyone recommending taking on more debt on top of six figures is completely out of their mind.


This. Sorry OP, but you can't afford Harvard. Go to UT and gun like crazy for Biglaw, cause you're gonna need it to pay off your loans regardless. Dunno what you're gonna do if you strike out, since you're debt pwned before you even start. But $400k in debt is absolutely, unequivocally insane.


Stop the fear mongering posts. It's not insane. With a Harvard degree there's no reason OP should ever be making less than 100k a year in take home pay unless he's clerking, and that's without bonuses. Putting half of that towards loans gives a manageable 50k a year lifestyle, and then he has the next 20 years of his career plus retirement with no debt and the same Harvard connections and degree...

Myself
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.

Postby Myself » Fri May 24, 2013 1:33 am

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Last edited by Myself on Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Clearly
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Re: Harvard Sticker v. Texas Full-Ride

Postby Clearly » Fri May 24, 2013 1:43 am

ajax adonis wrote:It seems like all the people arguing for UT do so using unlikely worst-case scenarios. Go to H. It's universes apart from UT and will open up many more opportunities.

I'm not sure I agree. I think burn-out from biglaw is a reasonably likely scenario, and given the debt load, a very unfortunate one. UT places well in TX as well, and he could actually keep the money he makes. I'm barely decided on this one, its really a tossup between the two polar opposite options.

fluffythepenguin
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Re: Harvard Sticker v. Texas Full-Ride

Postby fluffythepenguin » Fri May 24, 2013 1:58 am

OP, can you please give us estimated debt totals upon graduation (assuming 2L SA)?

Ti Malice
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Re: Harvard Sticker v. Texas Full-Ride

Postby Ti Malice » Fri May 24, 2013 3:33 am

ajax adonis wrote:It seems like all the people arguing for UT do so using unlikely worst-case scenarios. Go to H. It's universes apart from UT and will open up many more opportunities.


I'm not arguing for UT at all. I'm arguing against Harvard, and I would bet that most people arguing against Harvard are taking this same position. Coming out of any law school with in the neighborhood of $400K in debt is absolute madness, and you can really tell who does and does not have much experience in the real world based on how nonchalant one is toward the prospect of shouldering that amount of debt.

"But there's PAYE!" Yeah, good luck getting a decent mortgage loan for all the years you still have a six-figure debt tied to your name. Not everyone aspires to be a renter until age forty. Some people want to get married and start a family a few years after law school. People with lawyers' salaries and $500K+ of loan payments on the horizon (interest included) often find it quite a bit tougher to find a partner willing to sign his/her name to that level of debt. This isn't Monopoly money. There are real life-altering consequences to having debt of that magnitude.

I think leaving UT with $160K+ in debt is also a bad idea. As far as attending law school goes, by far the best option for OP would be something like Duke, NU, or Cornell on a full ride.

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J-e-L-L-o
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Re: Harvard Sticker v. Texas Full-Ride

Postby J-e-L-L-o » Fri May 24, 2013 6:13 am

Ti Malice wrote:
ajax adonis wrote:It seems like all the people arguing for UT do so using unlikely worst-case scenarios. Go to H. It's universes apart from UT and will open up many more opportunities.


I'm not arguing for UT at all. I'm arguing against Harvard, and I would bet that most people arguing against Harvard are taking this same position. Coming out of any law school with in the neighborhood of $400K in debt is absolute madness, and you can really tell who does and does not have much experience in the real world based on how nonchalant one is toward the prospect of shouldering that amount of debt.

"But there's PAYE!" Yeah, good luck getting a decent mortgage loan for all the years you still have a six-figure debt tied to your name. Not everyone aspires to be a renter until age forty. Some people want to get married and start a family a few years after law school. People with lawyers' salaries and $500K+ of loan payments on the horizon (interest included) often find it quite a bit tougher to find a partner willing to sign his/her name to that level of debt. This isn't Monopoly money. There are real life-altering consequences to having debt of that magnitude.

I think leaving UT with $160K+ in debt is also a bad idea. As far as attending law school goes, by far the best option for OP would be something like Duke, NU, or Cornell on a full ride.



This is the best quote in this thread.

muskies970 wrote:
Stop the fear mongering posts. It's not insane. With a Harvard degree there's no reason OP should ever be making less than 100k a year in take home pay unless he's clerking, and that's without bonuses. Putting half of that towards loans gives a manageable 50k a year lifestyle, and then he has the next 20 years of his career plus retirement with no debt and the same Harvard connections and degree...


50k a year....for 10 years? Retirement? That's going to come out of the 50k. Although very doable in Texas, whats the point of going to law school then? There is no reason to take on that much debt when there are other alternatives to achieve the same thing in a more conservative way. I'd rather be investing a quarter million then paying down principle and interest on a half million.

Yung Bucks are insane ITE.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Harvard Sticker v. Texas Full-Ride

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Fri May 24, 2013 9:33 am

Average lifetime earnings of a Harvard grad are probably light years ahead of UT's--more than $250k.

A lot of people in this thread seem to portray Harvard as the risk. On the contrary, Harvard is the safe play--~100% chance of Biglaw if he wants it, versus maybe striking out at UT and having no way to move that $100k. Yes, $350k is a lot of debt, but the method to do it, on an 8-9 year repayment schedule is damn near guaranteed.

Remember law, as a career, is about way more than the first five years. You've got presumably 25+ more to think about. And in those years, you'll be glad you picked Harvard.

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letsjustsee
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Re: Harvard Sticker v. Texas Full-Ride

Postby letsjustsee » Fri May 24, 2013 9:40 am

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Last edited by letsjustsee on Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Harvard Sticker v. Texas Full-Ride

Postby rickgrimes69 » Fri May 24, 2013 9:40 am

Ti Malice wrote:
ajax adonis wrote:It seems like all the people arguing for UT do so using unlikely worst-case scenarios. Go to H. It's universes apart from UT and will open up many more opportunities.


I'm not arguing for UT at all. I'm arguing against Harvard, and I would bet that most people arguing against Harvard are taking this same position. Coming out of any law school with in the neighborhood of $400K in debt is absolute madness, and you can really tell who does and does not have much experience in the real world based on how nonchalant one is toward the prospect of shouldering that amount of debt.

"But there's PAYE!" Yeah, good luck getting a decent mortgage loan for all the years you still have a six-figure debt tied to your name. Not everyone aspires to be a renter until age forty. Some people want to get married and start a family a few years after law school. People with lawyers' salaries and $500K+ of loan payments on the horizon (interest included) often find it quite a bit tougher to find a partner willing to sign his/her name to that level of debt. This isn't Monopoly money. There are real life-altering consequences to having debt of that magnitude.

I think leaving UT with $160K+ in debt is also a bad idea. As far as attending law school goes, by far the best option for OP would be something like Duke, NU, or Cornell on a full ride.


Came here to say this, but you saved me the trouble. Well said. It's not "fear mongering" to point out that racking up $400k in non-dischargeable debt before you even graduate is completely insane.

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ajclark1992
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Re: Harvard Sticker v. Texas Full-Ride

Postby ajclark1992 » Fri May 24, 2013 9:51 am

letsjustsee wrote:
J-e-L-L-o wrote:
Ti Malice wrote:
ajax adonis wrote:It seems like all the people arguing for UT do so using unlikely worst-case scenarios. Go to H. It's universes apart from UT and will open up many more opportunities.


I'm not arguing for UT at all. I'm arguing against Harvard, and I would bet that most people arguing against Harvard are taking this same position. Coming out of any law school with in the neighborhood of $400K in debt is absolute madness, and you can really tell who does and does not have much experience in the real world based on how nonchalant one is toward the prospect of shouldering that amount of debt.

"But there's PAYE!" Yeah, good luck getting a decent mortgage loan for all the years you still have a six-figure debt tied to your name. Not everyone aspires to be a renter until age forty. Some people want to get married and start a family a few years after law school. People with lawyers' salaries and $500K+ of loan payments on the horizon (interest included) often find it quite a bit tougher to find a partner willing to sign his/her name to that level of debt. This isn't Monopoly money. There are real life-altering consequences to having debt of that magnitude.

I think leaving UT with $160K+ in debt is also a bad idea. As far as attending law school goes, by far the best option for OP would be something like Duke, NU, or Cornell on a full ride.



This is the best quote in this thread.


This.

OP, after perusing your LSN account, if your profile is 100% accurate, you need to reapply next year. You need to blanket the entire T14 -- tailor each application, have multiple people look them over and make sure they are perfect. With a 174 and 3.8, you should be able to get considerable (if not full-ride) scholarships from Cornell, NU and Duke. For your situation and goals, a Mordecai at Duke would be a dream come true.

Also, if you are only going to be 20 when entering law school, there's no reason anyone should be encouraging or pressuring you to go now. In fact, I would say that if you reapply next year and still don't get any T14 full-ride scholarships, wait yet another year. Gain some work experience and pay down some of that $100k in undergrad debt. Even if they did not help pay tuition, is there any chance your parents would let you live with them while you pay down some of your undergrad debt?

TL;DR: Keep reapplying to the entire T14 until you get a full ride, get some work experience, and pay down some of that undergrad debt. You are young, and that sweet LSAT score and GPA aren't going anywhere.


My parents probably wouldn't buy into this thinking, so I'd probably end up living on my own. I probably should have blanketed from the beginning. At the time of application, I figured I probably wouldn't ever choose Duke, NU, or Cornell before Texas. So I just didn't apply.

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francesfarmer
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Re: Harvard Sticker v. Texas Full-Ride

Postby francesfarmer » Fri May 24, 2013 9:56 am

ajclark1992 wrote:My parents probably wouldn't buy into this thinking, so I'd probably end up living on my own. I probably should have blanketed from the beginning. At the time of application, I figured I probably wouldn't ever choose Duke, NU, or Cornell before Texas. So I just didn't apply.

Living on your own is awesome. Please wait and reapply for a full ride at a lower T-14!

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Harvard Sticker v. Texas Full-Ride

Postby rickgrimes69 » Fri May 24, 2013 10:23 am

francesfarmer wrote:
ajclark1992 wrote:My parents probably wouldn't buy into this thinking, so I'd probably end up living on my own. I probably should have blanketed from the beginning. At the time of application, I figured I probably wouldn't ever choose Duke, NU, or Cornell before Texas. So I just didn't apply.

Living on your own is awesome. Please wait and reapply for a full ride at a lower T-14!


Agreed. Law school isn't going anywhere. At 20, you're going to feel really young around your older classmates, and inexperienced when you apply for jobs. I have friends in OP's exact situation who complain constantly about their lack of real world experience. Nobody regrets taking a year off, but lots of people regret going straight through.

BigZuck
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Re: Harvard Sticker v. Texas Full-Ride

Postby BigZuck » Fri May 24, 2013 10:29 am

letsjustsee wrote:
J-e-L-L-o wrote:
Ti Malice wrote:
ajax adonis wrote:It seems like all the people arguing for UT do so using unlikely worst-case scenarios. Go to H. It's universes apart from UT and will open up many more opportunities.


I'm not arguing for UT at all. I'm arguing against Harvard, and I would bet that most people arguing against Harvard are taking this same position. Coming out of any law school with in the neighborhood of $400K in debt is absolute madness, and you can really tell who does and does not have much experience in the real world based on how nonchalant one is toward the prospect of shouldering that amount of debt.

"But there's PAYE!" Yeah, good luck getting a decent mortgage loan for all the years you still have a six-figure debt tied to your name. Not everyone aspires to be a renter until age forty. Some people want to get married and start a family a few years after law school. People with lawyers' salaries and $500K+ of loan payments on the horizon (interest included) often find it quite a bit tougher to find a partner willing to sign his/her name to that level of debt. This isn't Monopoly money. There are real life-altering consequences to having debt of that magnitude.

I think leaving UT with $160K+ in debt is also a bad idea. As far as attending law school goes, by far the best option for OP would be something like Duke, NU, or Cornell on a full ride.



This is the best quote in this thread.


This.

OP, after perusing your LSN account, if your profile is 100% accurate, you need to reapply next year. You need to blanket the entire T14 -- tailor each application, have multiple people look them over and make sure they are perfect. With a 174 and 3.8, you should be able to get considerable (if not full-ride) scholarships from Cornell, NU and Duke. For your situation and goals, a Mordecai at Duke would be a dream come true.

Also, if you are only going to be 20 when entering law school, there's no reason anyone should be encouraging or pressuring you to go now. In fact, I would say that if you reapply next year and still don't get any T14 full-ride scholarships, wait yet another year. Gain some work experience and pay down some of that $100k in undergrad debt. Even if they did not help pay tuition, is there any chance your parents would let you live with them while you pay down some of your undergrad debt?

TL;DR: Keep reapplying to the entire T14 until you get a full ride, get some work experience, and pay down some of that undergrad debt. You are young, and that sweet LSAT score and GPA aren't going anywhere.


I think this is excellent advice.

Full ride at Duke would be perfect for the OP. I think the OP might be a little blinded by the lure of Texas (because really, what red-blooded Texan would ever give up a full ride to UT law?) and the desire to power through school.

I don't think going to UT on a full ride would be the end of the world. And Harvard is Harvard (as evidenced by the fact that this is the only school that accepted you that give you pause and caused you to question attending UT). But there are some other amazing potential options that you could get if you apply early next year plus some life experiences to be gained by just working and having fun for a year. You can't even legally drink yet my friend!

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Harvard Sticker v. Texas Full-Ride

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Fri May 24, 2013 12:01 pm

BigZuck wrote: You can't even legally drink yet my friend!


Secretly the most important argument for taking a year off. Think about whether you want to spend your 1L left out of the bitter bar bonding of your classmates, save for the ol' fakearoo, which I don't recommend because that's a tough one to explain come your Bar Evaluation C&F.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Harvard Sticker v. Texas Full-Ride

Postby jbagelboy » Fri May 24, 2013 12:46 pm

20 is extremely young.

still, he got into harvard and you're really telling him to reapply? meh

OP, if your parents have the money, have you tried talking to them about helping you pay back the UG loans so you can go to Harvard? I'm not pretending to know anything about your family circumstances, just what you've mentioned here, but they might be sympathetic to your situation in this case.

I would hate to reapply to law school after getting into Harvard. idk.

BigZuck
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Re: Harvard Sticker v. Texas Full-Ride

Postby BigZuck » Fri May 24, 2013 1:12 pm

jbagelboy wrote:20 is extremely young.

still, he got into harvard and you're really telling him to reapply? meh

OP, if your parents have the money, have you tried talking to them about helping you pay back the UG loans so you can go to Harvard? I'm not pretending to know anything about your family circumstances, just what you've mentioned here, but they might be sympathetic to your situation in this case.

I would hate to reapply to law school after getting into Harvard. idk.


Yeah, I hear this. I just think the huge undergrad debt is what makes this a strange/different case. If this were me, I would have definitely been targeting the Dukes/Cornells of the world to try and get a full ride and still be in a good position for TX big law. I just don't know if he approach was the best and he might be better served with a do over. UT is a good school and all but it's no Duke/Cornell. And I say that as someone who choose UT over those types of schools. But I only did that once I made my peace with the fact that I probably won't get big law out of UT. The odds are stacked against you there. I would never go to UT (or anything outside of the T12) if I needed big law.

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shifty_eyed
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Re: Harvard Sticker v. Texas Full-Ride

Postby shifty_eyed » Fri May 24, 2013 1:19 pm

jbagelboy wrote:20 is extremely young.

still, he got into harvard and you're really telling him to reapply? meh

OP, if your parents have the money, have you tried talking to them about helping you pay back the UG loans so you can go to Harvard? I'm not pretending to know anything about your family circumstances, just what you've mentioned here, but they might be sympathetic to your situation in this case.

I would hate to reapply to law school after getting into Harvard. idk.


ITA with this... I can't imagine being 20 and already saddled with that much debt. :?

mustached
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Re: Harvard Sticker v. Texas Full-Ride

Postby mustached » Fri May 24, 2013 1:30 pm

0L here so take this with a grain of salt. But if you had the chops to get into Harvard, I would imagine you'd have the chops to get top grades at UT. And if all you want is Texas BigLaw then why not save yourself a massive amount of debt? I don't know that lay prestige is worth 200k. But it all depends on need-based aid from H.

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Elston Gunn
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Re: Harvard Sticker v. Texas Full-Ride

Postby Elston Gunn » Fri May 24, 2013 1:31 pm

rad lulz wrote:With 100k loans you don't have any business going into more debt for lawl skool right now (even going to UT will incur debt)

Unless you plan to rely on 20 year PAYE

If they fix the tax bomb it's not a terrible option

But I'd wait to see if they do that

I think this was underappreciated advice. How badly do you actually want to be a lawyer? How sure are you about law school/what are your reasons for going? If you don't want to risk losing H, then you could defer, and wait to see if they fix the tax bomb. If they do, go. If they don't, don't go (or reapply). You'd be banking on them not pulling the rug out from under you, but a tax-bomb-less PAYE is definitely ideal for you if it's available.

xc326
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Re: Harvard Sticker v. Texas Full-Ride

Postby xc326 » Fri May 24, 2013 2:00 pm

Texas law student here so obviously biased.

But if you can visit Harvard and see the environment, I'd recommend that. You'll be going to school there for 3 years after all. Even though school is intense, I've had an amazing time at UT.

Also, many 1Ls in my class have summer associate positions at big law firms. If you got into UT with a full ride scholarship AND got into Harvard, I'm sure that you can make top 25% in UT.

Best of luck!

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Br3v
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Re: Harvard Sticker v. Texas Full-Ride

Postby Br3v » Fri May 24, 2013 2:27 pm

To me there is no wrong choice here. Could be risk averse and go to a great school for free, and have a great shot at landing the type of job where you want. Alternatively could go to one of the best schools in the country (which I think in the long term would easily pay for itself a few times over) and open up a lot of doors for you. A reason I might lean closer to UT in your shoes is if your POSITIVE you won't want to use any of those extra doors H will open, which I don't think you can conclusively say right now.

BigZuck
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Re: Harvard Sticker v. Texas Full-Ride

Postby BigZuck » Fri May 24, 2013 2:42 pm

As much as I want to believe it I think that the value of a UT degree (specifically the ease that one can get big law from there) has been inflated in the last few posts. The OP gambling on that seems risky to me. Riskier than trying to pay off 400K? That I don't know.

Ti Malice
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Re: Harvard Sticker v. Texas Full-Ride

Postby Ti Malice » Fri May 24, 2013 2:54 pm

Elston Gunn wrote:
rad lulz wrote:With 100k loans you don't have any business going into more debt for lawl skool right now (even going to UT will incur debt)

Unless you plan to rely on 20 year PAYE

If they fix the tax bomb it's not a terrible option

But I'd wait to see if they do that

I think this was underappreciated advice. How badly do you actually want to be a lawyer? How sure are you about law school/what are your reasons for going? If you don't want to risk losing H, then you could defer, and wait to see if they fix the tax bomb. If they do, go. If they don't, don't go (or reapply). You'd be banking on them not pulling the rug out from under you, but a tax-bomb-less PAYE is definitely ideal for you if it's available.


Problem is that he's in off the WL, so getting a deferral is unlikely.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Harvard Sticker v. Texas Full-Ride

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Fri May 24, 2013 3:10 pm

Tell me if I've got anything wrong:

1. UT, at best, is a coin flip for Biglaw.
2. We have established that if OP goes to Harvard, he certainly pays back $350k in 8-10 years, and then has another 20+ to be a Harvard alum and the privileges that carries.
3. If he goes to Texas, he has a 50% chance of being able to pay back $150k in 3-5 years, after which he will still not be a Harvard alum and won't have the privileges that carries over the next 25+.
4. If he goes to Texas, he also has a 50% chance of missing Biglaw, having no way to pay back $150k, and it will take him much, much longer than 8-10 years to pay it back.
5. Were OP to roll this decision over to next year, he would have a better chance of getting the full-ride at UT than a Harvard acceptance.

The only reason to pass up Harvard is to see what a year of WE and T14 applications can get you. There's no reason to go to UT now, that full ride will probably be waiting for you next year.




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